Meanwhile at BMW, the S58 is getting ready for Euro 7.
https://www.bmwblog.com/2024/10/10/bmw-confirms-next-gen-m3-gas-engine/
https://www.bmwblog.com/2024/10/10/bmw-confirms-next-gen-m3-gas-engine/
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dylanfoos
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Feels like Toyota and Lexus don't seem to care much about their global models anymore, when it's a model that's really important in the Japanese and European market, they will put the effort, but when it's models that are for the rest of the world including NA market, they feel like they're just thrown together from whatever parts are in the discount bin.
Europe does not get the Corolla with AWD 2.0l hybrid. There is even no AWD 1.8l hybrid. Some other markets even get the Yaris with AWD.
No more IS, no more Camry, no Landcruiser 300.
internalaudit
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Glad I am somewhat brand agnostic lol though still have reliability top of mind.
New world order can change with electrification.
Still think many EVs will be paper weights before their 16th birthday.
New world order can change with electrification.
Still think many EVs will be paper weights before their 16th birthday.
well, it is mostly because their sales sucked for different reasons, biggest one being sedan sales in Lexus markets suck.
LBX, LBX Morizo RR, Japanese market Crown models, Harrier and Century. All their properly nice interiors went to these cars while the global Lexus models' interiors feel like eh next to them.
mikeavelli
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Some great commentary here. I will say this:
The 4GS at its best I think sold 24,000 units a year in 2013 or 2014. If you all recall, around the time the GX was going to get discontinued, it sold like 12,000 units. Well the craziest **** happened..What seemed like an overnight change was years in the making of people wanting SUVs and to shell with sedans and coupes. GS sold like crap after and GX sales doubles and nearly TRIPLES in 2021 to over 32,000 units. This is a vehicle that is now 12 years old.
I absolutely hate the GS is dead but how the hell do you pitch a business case for an entire dying market. The X5 outsells the 3 series. So does the X3. This was unimaginable 20 years ago.
Then you now have consumers shifting to non profitable EVs one by one. So now you got to invest in it and we are talking tens of billions of dollars.
I don’t envy Lexus or any car manufacturer with the speed of change right now. I also hate to admit that car enthusiasts are few and far between, complain to much and don’t buy new cars as much as we should.
So yeah the world is basically gonna be suvs and suv evs. Elon just showcased self driving taxis Might be time to look for property on mars lol
The 4GS at its best I think sold 24,000 units a year in 2013 or 2014. If you all recall, around the time the GX was going to get discontinued, it sold like 12,000 units. Well the craziest **** happened..What seemed like an overnight change was years in the making of people wanting SUVs and to shell with sedans and coupes. GS sold like crap after and GX sales doubles and nearly TRIPLES in 2021 to over 32,000 units. This is a vehicle that is now 12 years old.
I absolutely hate the GS is dead but how the hell do you pitch a business case for an entire dying market. The X5 outsells the 3 series. So does the X3. This was unimaginable 20 years ago.
Then you now have consumers shifting to non profitable EVs one by one. So now you got to invest in it and we are talking tens of billions of dollars.
I don’t envy Lexus or any car manufacturer with the speed of change right now. I also hate to admit that car enthusiasts are few and far between, complain to much and don’t buy new cars as much as we should.
So yeah the world is basically gonna be suvs and suv evs. Elon just showcased self driving taxis Might be time to look for property on mars lol
Really concerning to see the V35A-FTS already need to be detuned by 41kW/55hp to comply with emissions in China. That's already a 13% loss. It's going to be worse in EU and NA in 2027.
The problem is not about the GS or whatever dying sedan in the market segment. Not having a proper 6-cylinder+ engine to comply with future regulations will leave them completely irrelevant in the SUV and truck market as well.
Even the most loyal of Toyota truck buyers won't pay the same money to buy a 272hp Tundra for the money of a 420hp RAM. The ones who don't care about power will buy a used 2UZ-FE V8 2007 Tundra anyway, not a TTV6 with a tainted reputation.
Here's what the Toyota/Lexus full-size lineup will look like if they don't have a new 6 cylinder engine ready by 2027:
Tundra SR/GX550: 244hp
Tundra: 272hp
LX600: 286hp
LS500 (if it still exists): 290hp
LS/LC500h (if they still exist): 266hp
Tundra hybrid/Sequoia: 320hp
LX700h: 334hp
Welcome back to 1998.
So none of these products will even match the power of the Tacoma hybrid if they replace the 2.4T with new 2.0T (at least 343hp for the hybrid).
The problem is not about the GS or whatever dying sedan in the market segment. Not having a proper 6-cylinder+ engine to comply with future regulations will leave them completely irrelevant in the SUV and truck market as well.
Even the most loyal of Toyota truck buyers won't pay the same money to buy a 272hp Tundra for the money of a 420hp RAM. The ones who don't care about power will buy a used 2UZ-FE V8 2007 Tundra anyway, not a TTV6 with a tainted reputation.
Here's what the Toyota/Lexus full-size lineup will look like if they don't have a new 6 cylinder engine ready by 2027:
Tundra SR/GX550: 244hp
Tundra: 272hp
LX600: 286hp
LS500 (if it still exists): 290hp
LS/LC500h (if they still exist): 266hp
Tundra hybrid/Sequoia: 320hp
LX700h: 334hp
Welcome back to 1998.
So none of these products will even match the power of the Tacoma hybrid if they replace the 2.4T with new 2.0T (at least 343hp for the hybrid).
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Gor134
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GS market is slowing down but far from dead.
We have of course the trio of Germans with brand new EV and ICE of these models, the Genesis G80 which I consider the spiritual successor of the GS, with it's own EV version as well, and Cadillac with the CT5 (priced lower tho). The only ones that "died" is the Infiniti Q70 and Lexus GS, both of which suffered from being outdated and behind on technology/performance. Jaguar XF died because the entire lineup died.
Maybe in the US but global sales figures tell a different story.
According to CarIndustryAnalysis who compiles global sales figure info, last year BMW sold 329k X3s globally (277k X3 and 52k X4), 313k 3-Series (253k sedan and 60k wagons), 240k X5s, and 249k 5-Series (225k sedans and 24k wagons; G30 production ending and transition to G60), 84k i4s
Audi sold 320k Q5s (266k SUV and 54k Sportback), 261k Audi A6s (210k sedan and 51k wagons), 229k A4s (167k sedans and 62k wagons), 72k Q7s, 57k A5 Sportbacks
Mercedes sold 298k C Class (249k sedans and 49k wagons), 291k GLC Class (238k SUV and 53k Coupes), 251k E Class (232k sedans and 19k wagons), 142k GLE.
Cadillac sold 102k CT5s
Genesis sold 68k GV70s, 52k G80s, and 50k GV80s
Lexus sold 207k RXs, 207k NXs, 193k ESs, and only 35k ISs
Though going over these numbers I see where a lot of problems arise.. these executive sedans are hugely popular in Europe as they're used for business/company leasing, the G80s are popular in Korea, and Cadillac is big in US, China, and iirc, Russia. Lexus's big sedan can't be popular in it's home market where the car brand of choice is Toyota, and in the US the ES outsells it. It would need an outstanding GS as a large scale global model (ICE, EV, and LWB) which Lexus definitely has zero interest investing in.
But my point still stands that the luxury car market is far from dead amongst SUVs, globally.
Gor134
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Stellantis just developed their new i6 too with nearly 500hp, in the Grand Wagoneer and Rams and Charger, and rumoured to be going in the Grand Cherokee soon too.
But oh no Toyota can't afford to develop an i6, they have to outsource to BMW for the Supra because it would be too expensive! And BOF GA-K models can't use i6s to lower R&D costs and should use a ttV6 instead! /sarcasm
What do you think Toyota will do for the BoF? Won't they just get upgraded electric motors/batteries to make up for the ICE power deficit?
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Take the hit and sell uncompetitive products until they have something new ready. They've already done that in China where they sold 2 model years of 300h models with only 160PS. Then come back in 2 years with 2.0 I4 engines on Tundra or GX and say "unfortunately we have to downsize our engines because of emissions".
But at least good SUVs, which is not the case. Germans are too lowered, QX70 is no more, GX an LX are cost reduced, NX is not on the performance level of Germans, only RX is acceptable but also too lowered.
internalaudit
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If Lexus vehicles are so uncompetitive WRT technology and power, why do they still sell?
Because of perceived higher reliability and lower depreciation? Or because they're a big step up from Toyotas? It can't be the exterior designs of late, or can it?
It used to be the first gen LS undercut the S Class and 7 Series by at least 30 to 40%. That discount is no more as the brand is established.
Today most of the technologies used to be reserved for higher models have trickled down to bottom rung models, there's almost no reason to go for the high end models unless one wanted some extra creature comforts, some exclusive technology or safety features (that are not really groundbreaking) and exclusivity / elitism.
Because of perceived higher reliability and lower depreciation? Or because they're a big step up from Toyotas? It can't be the exterior designs of late, or can it?
It used to be the first gen LS undercut the S Class and 7 Series by at least 30 to 40%. That discount is no more as the brand is established.
Today most of the technologies used to be reserved for higher models have trickled down to bottom rung models, there's almost no reason to go for the high end models unless one wanted some extra creature comforts, some exclusive technology or safety features (that are not really groundbreaking) and exclusivity / elitism.
It isn't. Total system output is still 341kW.
The TTV8? Also they announced the new inline-4's when it was already finished. It's still too early to jump to conclusions.
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If the American brands have no problem with making V8s that can pass emissions regulations, why can't Toyota do the same too? We shouldn't forget that one of the reasons Toyota was able to take away so much market share from the big 3 back in the 80s and 90s was because they have up to date engine designs, while the American brands were dragging their feet with really outdated, crappy engine designs and being really stingy with engine development.
I remember someone from LE mentioned that TNGA-F early on was tested with a v8. I wonder whats the story behind that besides too costly and NDA.
If this remotely looks like the next gen, i hope they are prepared to scotch tape a blank check on every new IS at the dealership, cause no one is spending their own money to buy or lease that thing.
Because most markets right now are transitioning into hybrids. EV slowing down and EU moving away from diesel. They bet on the right path when others were over invested in EVs and now have no competitive hybrids.
They are behind on many technologies. But their hybrid technology is almost 10 years ahead of the next best manufacturer. That alone is enough for their success.
But it doesn't take 10 years to close a 10 year gap. They are already falling behind on hybrid-optimized ICE design. Nissan will launch a 50% thermal efficiency engine soon while numerous Chinese manufacturers have 45%+ range extender designs.