Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

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qtb007

qtb007

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F1 Silver Arrows said:
Sounds Lexus should just give up then.

Lexus: "Okay all right guys we're going to kill every single car but the NX, ES, RX, TX, and GX (A.K.A., the only cool Lexus) because... screw all the other cars right?"
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I didn't say that. I'm saying that buyers are saying they have no interest in what this little corner of the internet claims will fix Lexus' woes. Woes like best ever sales results through the 3rd quarter in their 35 year history. ;)

I don't envy Lexus product planners. Buyers are schizophrenic these days. Regulations are rubber banding between demanding no ICE in 6 years time to adding registration penalties to BEVs for loss of gas tax revenue. 3 years ago everyone was clamoring to be all BEV by 2030 and now everyone is figuring out how to keep their volume with powertrains that were supposed to sunset in 2 years time. As it is a pretty tumultuous time in the industry, it does make sense that Lexus focuses on flexibility and their core customers just to get through it. I think their plans to focus on BEV were pretty solid. It works with regulations, BEV fits well with Lexus core competencies (NVH), and it would allow them to really push out into other segments as far as body shape, target customer, etc with economies of scale that ICE just can't. Then we had a race to the bottom led by Tesla and every other automaker having to throw tons of cash on the hood to move metal and that has effectively torpedoed BEV as a singular direction.

Finally, I don't know how you make someone desire a Lexus sports coupe the way people desire an M3/M4. For Lexus to make the business case for sleek sports coupes, they need to make something that truly feels special. Toyota has apparently figured out some of that magic by building what other won't via the GR brand (Corolla, Yaris, 86). But the things that make the GR cars great make for terrible Lexus. It has to be a maniac in a tailored suit. Maybe a 6MT or 7MT in an IS-F or RC-F would have done it... but probably not. Lexus needs a time machine to go back into the 90s and offer that type of car from the beginning to build that reputation. When the truly fast cars are all going to BEV, I don't know that various high power ICE cars will be more than just a curiosity at this point.
 
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qtb007 said:
I didn't say that. I'm saying that buyers are saying they have no interest in what this little corner of the internet claims will fix Lexus' woes. Woes like best ever sales results through the 3rd quarter in their 35 year history. ;)

I don't envy Lexus product planners. Buyers are schizophrenic these days. Regulations are rubber banding between demanding no ICE in 6 years time to adding registration penalties to BEVs for loss of gas tax revenue. 3 years ago everyone was clamoring to be all BEV by 2030 and now everyone is figuring out how to keep their volume with powertrains that were supposed to sunset in 2 years time. As it is a pretty tumultuous time in the industry, it does make sense that Lexus focuses on flexibility and their core customers just to get through it. I think their plans to focus on BEV were pretty solid. It works with regulations, BEV fits well with Lexus core competencies (NVH), and it would allow them to really push out into other segments as far as body shape, target customer, etc with economies of scale that ICE just can't. Then we had a race to the bottom led by Tesla and every other automaker having to throw tons of cash on the hood to move metal and that has effectively torpedoed BEV as a singular direction.
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The issue is that Lexus fails to be pragmatic. Stick to hybrids and have some EVs. But what they did is that they threw the baby out with the bathwater and are outright refusing to develop new engines. That's lame as hell.

Schizophrenic buyers are the loud minority, Lexus is still selling well because everyone else bar BMW lowkey are losing the plot as well. But when BMW is offering powerful engines, pleasant interiors and a fun driving experience while maintaining its luxuriousness, and not to mention, they're RELIABLE now, sales will start creeping away from Lexus.

You mention that everyone was clamoring to be all BEV. Yes that's somewhat true, people were saying that their lineups will be moving towards electric in the far future, but at LEAST they still had or are developing new engines. BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche. All of these manufacturers are examples that they are not going to abandon their core buyer base.

Also, Lexus is trying to shift from being a plush luxobarge to being dynamically interesting cars to drive, current Lexus BEVs don't offer that.
qtb007 said:
Finally, I don't know how you make someone desire a Lexus sports coupe the way people desire an M3/M4.
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I'll tell you how. Commitment. Just commit.

Lexus has no brand identity because their planning for everything bar the NX, ES, and RX is sporadic. That does not inspire any confidence in the prestige of the brand as the brand is being watered down to *gulps* "Toyota+".
qtb007 said:
For Lexus to make the business case for sleek sports coupes, they need to make something that truly feels special. Toyota has apparently figured out some of that magic by building what other won't via the GR brand (Corolla, Yaris, 86). But the things that make the GR cars great make for terrible Lexus. It has to be a maniac in a tailored suit. Maybe a 6MT or 7MT in an IS-F or RC-F would have done it... but probably not. Lexus needs a time machine to go back into the 90s and offer that type of car from the beginning to build that reputation. When the truly fast cars are all going to BEV, I don't know that various high power ICE cars will be more than just a curiosity at this point.
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GR is just one part of the equation. Lexus needs its own flair too.

However, for the sake of the argument, let's go with what you're saying.

When you have cars like the TX having a monochromatic, fake leather interior with absolutely nothing else that's notable about it, it makes it look more depressing than the Grand Highlander that it's based on.

This isn't just about the lack of dedication towards ICEs and RWD products (well, it's a big chunk of it), it's about their abject laziness that even their interiors, which was always a highlight, makes it feel disgusting to be in. Let's also remember in the case of the TX, it's grossly overpriced too.
 
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F1 Silver Arrows said:
Also, Lexus is trying to shift from being a plush luxobarge to being dynamically interesting cars to drive, current Lexus BEVs don't offer that.
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Being dynamically interesting to drive is actually the only redeeming quality of the RZ450e. It handles far different from any other Lexus SUV. Steering is way more accurate and tight than the RX500h FSP. And its acceleration will definitely make you question the "only" 230kW power rating. It feels faster even compared to other BEVs in the segment.

The RZ450e sucks at being a BEV, but it definitely sets the new standard for "Lexus driving signature".
F1 Silver Arrows said:
The issue is that Lexus fails to be pragmatic. Stick to hybrids and have some EVs. But what they did is that they threw the baby out with the bathwater and are outright refusing to develop new engines. That's lame as hell.
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Their refusal to share any plans on replacing the V35 is very concerning, especially with the comment that the new 2.0T is going to be the "successor to the 2JZ".

If we go with their estimates on current DF engines, the V35 will similarly suffer up to 30% power loss when Euro 7/CARB 2027 come in effect. When that happens the Tundra/LX600 will drop to 280hp and no customer would buy a product like that. And while the 2GR-FXS got a few years of life extension with detuning (295hp -> 257hp) to pass SULEV30, it will definitely fail the next regulation as well. As it stands, the entire TMC has no plans for a 400PS+ ICE that can comply with emissions regulations in major markets from 2027 onwards and that's less than 3 years away. I remember when China National 6 regulations went into effect they had to cut 30% of their lineup in China and the remaining offers were extremely underpowered. The NX300h and LM300h dropped to 160PS total system power due to detuning the 2AR-FXE for compliance.

They already received so much backlash going from V8 to V6 on the LS and GA-F trucks and the V35 is already one of the biggest quality scandals they had since 2000. Their truck and SUV sales will definitely drop off a cliff if they replace the V35 with a 400PS 2.0L 4-cylinder engine.
 
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ssun30 said:
Being dynamically interesting to drive is actually the only redeeming quality of the RZ450e. It handles far different from any other Lexus SUV. Steering is way more accurate and tight than the RX500h FSP. And its acceleration will definitely make you question the "only" 230kW power rating. It feels faster even compared to other BEVs in the segment.

The RZ450e sucks at being a BEV, but it definitely sets the new standard for "Lexus driving signature".
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You're right, I forgot people that spoke extremely highly of it's handling chops. Well, that barely softens the blow of Lexus doing nothing.
ssun30 said:
Their refusal to share any plans on replacing the V35 is very concerning, especially with the comment that the new 2.0T is going to be the "successor to the 2JZ".

If we go with their estimates on current DF engines, the V35 will similarly suffer up to 30% power loss when Euro 7/CARB 2027 come in effect. When that happens the Tundra/LX600 will drop to 280hp and no customer would buy a product like that. And while the 2GR-FXS got a few years of life extension with detuning (295hp -> 257hp) to pass SULEV30, it will definitely fail the next regulation as well. As it stands, the entire TMC has no plans for a 400PS+ ICE that can comply with emissions regulations in major markets from 2027 onwards and that's less than 3 years away. I remember when China National 6 regulations went into effect they had to cut 30% of their lineup in China and the remaining offers were extremely underpowered. The NX300h and LM300h dropped to 160PS total system power due to detuning the 2AR-FXE for compliance.

They already received so much backlash going from V8 to V6 on the LS and GA-F trucks and the V35 is already one of the biggest quality scandals they had since 2000. Their truck and SUV sales will definitely drop off a cliff if they replace the V35 with a 400PS 2.0L 4-cylinder engine.
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Something tells me that Lexus is going to go full-steam ahead into being a BEV company. There's no going back (at least for the foreseeable future) to 6-cylinders, 8-cylinders, or heck, 3 or 4-cylinders either. Engines are dead at Lexus.

I think we're seeing the slow death of Lexus enthusiast cars IMHO. I was pretty upset thinking about it today, but BMW and Toyota are there to save me at the very least.
 
Ian Schmidt

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qtb007 said:
LX is in no-man's land, IMO. It doesn't have the chiseled looks of the GX and there's not much on paper that says it is worth the premium over a GX. I'm sure once inside the differences stand out, but on paper, it isn't bigger or faster which are both things that Americans care a lot about. The LX should probably be a long wheelbase Sequoia completely restyled by Japan side, but we know that isn't happening.
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The GX has a better version of the current Lexus design language and a few more available luxury features than the LX. They just had to give the LX all the same features as the 5LS (including the glass) and then they'd have a consistent definition of what Lexus high end is, but somehow that didn't happen.
 
bogglo

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Gecko said:
Lexus' biggest enemy is not Mercedes, BMW, Audi, or even Toyota. It is their own lack of consistency.
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This comment right here. Also when is Koji San going to make an announcement about the direction Lexus wants to move in. I think it is very critical especially with the crown models now in NA and the Century in other market. So far the only person we are still hearing from is Akio.

Also when is the UX getting a redesign/refresh with the LBX Morizo treatment. That could be a start of something.
 
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TLDR

Make unique cars folks will purchase in a small number, or make great value versions of segment leaders to sell in droves?
 
Gor134

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F1 Silver Arrows said:

Lexus: "We're going to become fully EV by 2030."
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Mercedes also mentioned the next-gen S Class will have ICE carrying it well into the 2030s. Even more reason for Lexus to invest in a future ICE RWD platform for the IS and LS.

Going full EV for the sedan products is going to leave Lexus DOA, these cars only sell with heavy leasing incentives and are dead underwater being worth less than their residual when returning from lease-end.
 
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Gor134 said:
They had a next-gen IS in development for 5 years and it didn't go on sale? What?
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They were developing the next IS but by 2019 we got reports saying it's a refresh. Since 2018 we've heard about the 2.4LT and it going into the IS but instead debuted in the NX. They scrapped all that and refreshed it. The lineup would've looked like this imo
IS300h: 2.5LHEV 225hp
IS350: 2.4LT ~290hp
IS500h: 3.5LHEV 355hp
ISF? 3.4TT 450hp+ 450lb-ft+
The IS would've taken both the hybrids from the S220 Crown and debut the 2.4LT
 
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In an interview published Thursday, BMW M boss Frank van Meel told Bimmer Today the automaker plans to continue offering the twin-turbo 3.0-liter inline-six engine in future M3 models if the demand is there.

“We’ll let the six-cylinder combustion run for as long as possible,” he said in the video (translated). “If customer demand is what it is at the moment, and it doesn’t drop off, we won’t turn off the six-cylinder either.”

“If customers say, “Even though an M3 is significantly faster electrically than the combustion engine that is the benchmark today, I still want a combustion engine,” then we will not withhold this offer from them.”
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BMW is doing a better impression of Lexus, than Lexus themselves. Not going to lie I'm pretty pissed off.

I don't ever want to hear anyone complaining about profit margins and the "business case isn't there". Winning the hearts and DOLLARS from people is one hell of an incentive.
 
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