NXracer

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oh boy!

Not really much news imho, as we knew that Toyota wanted USDM LC buyers to move up to the Lexus GX (The MY22 GX is a test case to see whether buyers will respond positively to higher pricing and by assumption GX would be starting at the 60K market if anything to put some distance between it and the RX and 4R) and LX.
The Seq would be repositioned as an alternate to the Expediurbans in that price class.
Hatchback is interesting was this needed or a fleet thing?
Avalon Plus is interesting, as it never moved the needle (Toyota has retried this formula multiple different ways between luxury and sport), especially since the ES existed? With the ES moving to Japan, its interesting if the sales goals for at least USDM are being reconsidered.
 

Gecko

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Not really much news imho, as we knew that Toyota wanted USDM LC buyers to move up to the Lexus GX (The MY22 GX is a test case to see whether buyers will respond positively to higher pricing and by assumption GX would be starting at the 60K market if anything to put some distance between it and the RX and 4R) and LX.
The Seq would be repositioned as an alternate to the Expediurbans in that price class.
Hatchback is interesting was this needed or a fleet thing?
Avalon Plus is interesting, as it never moved the needle (Toyota has retried this formula multiple different ways between luxury and sport), especially since the ES existed? With the ES moving to Japan, its interesting if the sales goals for at least USDM are being reconsidered.

Not sure what you mean by the GX part? GX price did not change much for 2022 - it still starts around $55k and goes up to about $70k for the Luxury model. I think Toyota's feeling is that between the LX and next-gen Sequoia, the Land Cruiser 300 would have been redundant. Plus, the addition of a Capstone model similar to the Tundra will surely be $70-80k and offer much of what Land Cruiser buyers would have wanted.

Crown replacing the Avalon as a "sedan+" body style in America will be interesting. I am interested to see what it looks like because that formula was ugly for Honda (CrossTour, ZDX) and BMW ("GT" series) but Toyota's own first gen Venza was probably one of the nicest looking ones. I assume that this Crown might share underpinnings with the next gen RX since the RX will need to be larger than the NX/RAV4/Venza and the Crown is a premium Toyota product.

Something like:

"Compact" GA-K: NX, RAV4, Venza, Wildlander, Harrier

"Midsize" GA-K: Camry, ES, Avalon, RX, Crown, Highlander

"Fullsize" GA-K: Grand Highlander, TX, Sienna??
 

NXracer

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Not sure what you mean by the GX part? GX price did not change much for 2022 - it still starts around $55k and goes up to about $70k for the Luxury model. I think Toyota's feeling is that between the LX and next-gen Sequoia, the Land Cruiser 300 would have been redundant. Plus, the addition of a Capstone model similar to the Tundra will surely be $70-80k and offer much of what Land Cruiser buyers would have wanted.

Crown replacing the Avalon as a "sedan+" body style in America will be interesting. I am interested to see what it looks like because that formula was ugly for Honda (CrossTour, ZDX) and BMW ("GT" series) but Toyota's own first gen Venza was probably one of the nicest looking ones. I assume that this Crown might share underpinnings with the next gen RX since the RX will need to be larger than the NX/RAV4/Venza and the Crown is a premium Toyota product.

Something like:

"Compact" GA-K: NX, RAV4, Venza, Wildlander, Harrier

"Midsize" GA-K: Camry, ES, Avalon, RX, Crown, Highlander

"Fullsize" GA-K: Grand Highlander, TX, Sienna??
Can you point me to this $55k sticker MY22 GX on a dealership lot? BTW the GX had started in previous years at $53, 250 and now its $55,425.

Speaking from experience for MY2014 onwards, GX had three variants, majority of sales were concentrated on the Premium variant, while we saw minor allocations and sales in the Lux and Base trim. 2021 GX introduced the premium plus which pushed the needle around the 60k mark with an in demand option folks were clamoring for (ML). The black line special addition model removed the ML sound system but the MSRP on the vehicles are at the 60k mark. Most vehicles on dealers lot are closer to the 60k number then I have ever seen in the past.

One would assume well, de-contented vehicles should be negatively perceived by the customer base (unless your Porsche), and yet customers seem to be responding very well since as of this writing the GX is on track to having the best sales year (2nd best) since 2005.

I'm expecting that Lexus is going to push the GX up to the 60k, make it appeal to the Bronco/Overlander crew with a family who don't want to rough it out with the 4R and something that will cover the market gap Lexus had literally nothing to offer. Remember the GX taps out at high 60s and LX started mid-high 80s.

The reason I mentioned LC buyers pushing over to the GX is, the Ih8muders who really push their vehicles dont have an upgrade path. 2nd hand LC and LX market (which toyota makes zero direct $$$) was crazy and now is absolutely insane, this would be a possible way to monetize those "lost customers".
 

Levi

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Crown+ makes sense, just as my favorite Audi could be a hypothetical A5 Sportback Allroad. The Toyota bZ sedan render also looks like some type of +vehicle mix of sedan and wagon plus lift. WRX now is like a lifted sedan, Allroad from Audi now has competitor from Mercedes as All-Terrain. Aygo X is going with a lift, CT went with a lift as UX. After 2000, cars were really all about sport, lower and such. In the same time strict road limit measures were put in place with road bumps and the kind. In addition road infrastructure has degraded in same places. I like lifted cars (daily's) because they feel better to drive on bad roads than normal sports cars, but also still feel sportier than trucks/suvs.

Honda Crosstour and ZDX were ahead of time. For BMW 3er/5er/6er GT did not work, because their core audience is sedans/coupes or they go right to cuvs. Toyota has a different customer, a lift might just give some versions the edge. Aygo X is a niche in Europe now, so are non premium sedans. I see something like a Camry X, Crown X. Lifted Impreza (XV/Crosstrek) is simply the best selling version of the family, and there is a reason for it, despite the low performing NA engines.
 

Gecko

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Can you point me to this $55k sticker MY22 GX on a dealership lot? BTW the GX had started in previous years at $53, 250 and now its $55,425.

Speaking from experience for MY2014 onwards, GX had three variants, majority of sales were concentrated on the Premium variant, while we saw minor allocations and sales in the Lux and Base trim. 2021 GX introduced the premium plus which pushed the needle around the 60k mark with an in demand option folks were clamoring for (ML). The black line special addition model removed the ML sound system but the MSRP on the vehicles are at the 60k mark. Most vehicles on dealers lot are closer to the 60k number then I have ever seen in the past.

One would assume well, de-contented vehicles should be negatively perceived by the customer base (unless your Porsche), and yet customers seem to be responding very well since as of this writing the GX is on track to having the best sales year (2nd best) since 2005.

I'm expecting that Lexus is going to push the GX up to the 60k, make it appeal to the Bronco/Overlander crew with a family who don't want to rough it out with the 4R and something that will cover the market gap Lexus had literally nothing to offer. Remember the GX taps out at high 60s and LX started mid-high 80s.

The reason I mentioned LC buyers pushing over to the GX is, the Ih8muders who really push their vehicles dont have an upgrade path. 2nd hand LC and LX market (which toyota makes zero direct $$$) was crazy and now is absolutely insane, this would be a possible way to monetize those "lost customers".

I'm sure you know how it works: $55k + destination + rear cargo cover + tint + floor mats = $58k+, and just about 8 months ago, those vehicles were "haveable" around $50-52k but the covid bubble sent prices soaring due to inventory shortages. I bought mine in April with an MSRP of ~$69k and paid about $62,500 before prices went crazy like they are now.

GX has been up and down during this generation (2010+) first offering just base and premium trims, then adding luxury later and restructuring the base to be cheaper with Nuluxe interior to bring down the price, then adding premium plus for 2021 and now black line for 2022. Lexus is wisely covering more and more space with the GX to do what works, and I agree with you that prices are inching up overall with product line expansion.

I also know what you mean with the GX's resurgence in the "overlanding" market but I think those folks get an outsized voice on the internet when the real GX buyer is soccer moms and dads who don't want an MDX or RX. I don't realistically think there are a lot of Land Cruiser buyers (to begin with) who are now going to GX... seems most are interested in the new Tundra, LX or waiting for the Sequoia. Of course there is the enthusiast crowd who seems to be going to the 4Runner and GX, but most of those folks buy used like you state.

Lexus also has the TX coming online soon, so in the next few years, we are likely going to see:

$50-60k RX
$55-65k TX
$60-80k GX (more models, more options, more focused for 3rd gen)
$90k+ LX (off road, 2 row, 3 row, ultra luxury, hybrid, etc

Lots of product -- across the spectrum!
 

Gecko

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Crown+ makes sense, just as my favorite Audi could be a hypothetical A5 Sportback Allroad. The Toyota bZ sedan render also looks like some type of +vehicle mix of sedan and wagon plus lift. WRX now is like a lifted sedan, Allroad from Audi now has competitor from Mercedes as All-Terrain. Aygo X is going with a lift, CT went with a lift as UX. After 2000, cars were really all about sport, lower and such. In the same time strict road limit measures were put in place with road bumps and the kind. In addition road infrastructure has degraded in same places. I like lifted cars (daily's) because they feel better to drive on bad roads than normal sports cars, but also still feel sportier than trucks/suvs.

Honda Crosstour and ZDX were ahead of time. For BMW 3er/5er/6er GT did not work, because their core audience is sedans/coupes or they go right to cuvs. Toyota has a different customer, a lift might just give some versions the edge. Aygo X is a niche in Europe now, so are non premium sedans. I see something like a Camry X, Crown X. Lifted Impreza (XV/Crosstrek) is simply the best selling version of the family, and there is a reason for it, despite the low performing NA engines.

Totally agree. I think something like "Camry Cross" with the V6, ~7" of ground clearance, wagon-esque cargo and AWD would basically be a dream car. Maybe the Crown will be similar but with premium touches and design.
 

Gor134

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BestCar did release a render of a Crown Cross type car a few weeks ago.. so looks like it will be a thing happening and aligns with the Crown trademark for the US
 

Levi

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Totally agree. I think something like "Camry Cross" with the V6, ~7" of ground clearance, wagon-esque cargo and AWD would basically be a dream car. Maybe the Crown will be similar but with premium touches and design.
Unfortunately 2GR gets replaced by T24A, so no more V6 except, V35A, which looks will be are truck only engine once the LS is gone.
 

NXracer

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I'm sure you know how it works: $55k + destination + rear cargo cover + tint + floor mats = $58k+, and just about 8 months ago, those vehicles were "haveable" around $50-52k but the covid bubble sent prices soaring due to inventory shortages. I bought mine in April with an MSRP of ~$69k and paid about $62,500 before prices went crazy like they are now.

GX has been up and down during this generation (2010+) first offering just base and premium trims, then adding luxury later and restructuring the base to be cheaper with Nuluxe interior to bring down the price, then adding premium plus for 2021 and now black line for 2022. Lexus is wisely covering more and more space with the GX to do what works, and I agree with you that prices are inching up overall with product line expansion.

I also know what you mean with the GX's resurgence in the "overlanding" market but I think those folks get an outsized voice on the internet when the real GX buyer is soccer moms and dads who don't want an MDX or RX. I don't realistically think there are a lot of Land Cruiser buyers (to begin with) who are now going to GX... seems most are interested in the new Tundra, LX or waiting for the Sequoia. Of course there is the enthusiast crowd who seems to be going to the 4Runner and GX, but most of those folks buy used like you state.

Lexus also has the TX coming online soon, so in the next few years, we are likely going to see:

$50-60k RX
$55-65k TX
$60-80k GX (more models, more options, more focused for 3rd gen)
$90k+ LX (off road, 2 row, 3 row, ultra luxury, hybrid, etc

Lots of product -- across the spectrum!
I understand the crazy accessories they tend include on GXs, and MY20 and 21 but base model GXs sub MSRP/sticker 54-55k in MY20-1 were available (higher on the east and west coast for obvious reasons). Premiums could be found at the 57-8k sticker (just an fyi sticker before any discounts which you can also confirm were massive on this thing).

Now you wont find either, and the demographic seems receptive to paying a premium for a simple appearance package upgrade pushing 60k (and yes this is before ADMs)

This fits in with the whole idea of "testing the waters" theory I mentioned earlier, and/or as you mentioned "expansion of the GX lineup".

I would not be surprised as you mentioned the GX bumping 5k for a base.
The outline for the CUV/SUV spread is spot on

Toyota, like any company thrives on marketing. The GX/LX overlanding edition, the round table meet with ih8muders on "giving them a voice at the table which would be the 300 development" (ironically the 300 gets axed from the us market), GX aftermarket incorporation into their builds may seem like a vocal minority, but the new director of marketing for the GX seems to be really milking it.

I do think the present is ripe for this type of product, the only issue is will folks care in 2-3 years when this GX comes to town. Lot of unknowns with that marketing goal, and with the whole transitory phase to electric.

In reference to the LC buyers moving to the GX its not like all 3k LC buyers are going straight to the Lexus dealership and slapping down a pre-reservation deposit on a new GX. I think with the combined annual sales of the LC, which were up since the end of the current generation to about 3k, LX buyers were around 4K, most buyers are gonna switch to the LX, switch brands, or might consider a top spec GX.

With the preview of what product planners showcased with the NX and LX launches the GX is a wild card. Will they offer a mixed powertrain like the NX to cater to different price points, or being that the GX is a mid-upper range SUV singular powertrain.


Not a typo, if you read the entire sentence where I mentioned LC buyers into GXs AND LXs.


On a side note, why are Lexus Flagship products unable to be equipped with Lexus Safety 3.0?
 

ssun30

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Personally I really question the true performance and efficiency of Geely's regular non-hybrid powetrains based on the real world driving done by my country's car journalists and owners of the rebadged cars that came to fruition from the Proton-Geely partnership, so I'm quite sceptical about their hybrid systems.

I really hope TMC has something ready to replace THS-II that will be a big step forward in power and efficiency, but what are the right improvements and changes they should make though?
What I expect from 'THS-III':
>> Dedicated hybrid ICE (not derived from a ICEV version), lean burn, electrically or mechanically supercharged, low pressure EGR, electrified valvetrain and accessories. 46%+ efficiency and 70kW+ specific power.
>> Stay with PS, but augmented with multi-stage planetary gear set. What's really innovative about DHT Pro is how they manage to package multi-stage into a transverse axle. Toyota's multi-stage system is too long and could only be used in longitudinal layout. Even a 2-stage system could offer considerable low-speed acceleration and high-speed fuel economy gains.
>> 800V inverter for minimal electrical losses. It's becoming the new standard in EVs (replacing the 650V standard).
>> Bipolar NiMH (low-end) or solid-state Li-ion (high-end) batteries with very high power density.
>> Scalability increased from 250kW to 400kW. Their near-term plans for P4 E-Axle is only 80kW. A 150+kW E-Axle is needed to be competitive. I don't have high expectations on this since they just don't care about performance.

With these improvements we will see a RAV4 hybrid easily with 4L/100km in WLTC or 50+ MPG in EPA cycle.
 

carguy420

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IMO fitting 18 inch wheels on a car with this little power is kinda ridiculous, but then the whole design wouldn't look right if the wheels weren't this big.
 

Gor134

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Definitely not a crossover lol. Marketing buzz words and massive wheels aside, I think it looks great for a tiny hatch.
 
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IMO fitting 18 inch wheels on a car with this little power is kinda ridiculous, but then the whole design wouldn't look right if the wheels weren't this big.

This gives me mad Fiat 500 vibes, and I truly like it.
 

NXracer

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so model below UX in select markets here we come? I wonder if this needs body spacers like the UX (Savage geese video for anybody interested) to give it that pseudo CUV status.

@Gecko 5% increase for the F platform on the Toyota Side, that 9% increase on Lexus side is easy for the GX
 

carguy420

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Daihatsu finally debut their own hybrid system, it's a series hybrid like Nissan's e-Power, but you'll probably never it in markets outside of Japan and certain parts of Southeast Asia as it is intended to be used in very budget oriented vehicles.