Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[Gecko]

Not to harp on the V8 thing, but how does Lexus view what happened to the LS500( lukewarm sales and reception) and what will happen to the other Lexus models losing the V8? An isolated incident? Automotive climate changed?

With the Tundra and LC300, I assume people are going to buy both initially just due to the 14-15 year wait, but as you hear, people still lament the loss of the V8. They may just be well received vehicles and it won't matter.

Good points. I think the LS was victim to a little too much change all at once with the V8 being one part of that. LS owners like a level of smoothness and prestige that the TTV6 didn't offer at first (smoothness) and probably still doesn't offer (prestige). I think something like the new Tundra iForce MAX powertrain would have been the perfect candidate for the LS because it's prestigious and very sophisticated (cache) but probably also very smooth and very fast. It's logical to assume that will go into the next LS, which I expect to offer an all-hybrid and electric lineup.

The LS also lost a fair bit of headroom and thus that loungy comfortable feeling that so many LS buyers love. The rear seat is fairly tight and at 6', I have to slouch down if I sit in the rear. The rest of the interior is also a big change, though a lot of it is wholly better than it has ever been. The features and technology are undoubtedly better than any LS before and it takes time spent with the car to figure that out.

Last point on the LS: The ES has become Lexus' silent killer, offing the GS, impacting the LS (larger size, same looks, half the price), and succeeding the IS in many international markets. Really none of Lexus' sedans are safe from the ES, and now, the LS is probably most vulnerable.

All of that said, as much as I think the LS should have had a V8, I think the TTV6 is the perfect powertrain for large trucks and SUVs that need torque, flexibility and better MPG where possible, and are less focused on S Class-rivaling smoothness. I hope that after 5 years of tuning the V35A-FTS in the LS 500 and refining it for the 2021 model year, Toyota has learned a few things, improved the gearing, refined the throttle response and found ways to reduce turbo lag. I can tell there's a lot of potential in this motor, it just needs some further work and refinement, so we should see what this latest-and-greatest version is like in the Tundra soon enough. It is wholly better than the 5.7L V8 for smoothness, acceleration and responsiveness - and my comparison to that is the LS 500, which should now be improved upon.

 

[sl0519]

Good points. I think the LS was victim to a little too much change all at once with the V8 being one part of that. LS owners like a level of smoothness and prestige that the TTV6 didn't offer at first (smoothness) and probably still doesn't offer (prestige). I think something like the new Tundra iForce MAX powertrain would have been the perfect candidate for the LS because it's prestigious and very sophisticated (cache) but probably also very smooth and very fast. It's logical to assume that will go into the next LS, which I expect to offer an all-hybrid and electric lineup.

The LS also lost a fair bit of headroom and thus that loungy comfortable feeling that so many LS buyers love. The rear seat is fairly tight and at 6', I have to slouch down if I sit in the rear. The rest of the interior is also a big change, though a lot of it is wholly better than it has ever been. The features and technology are undoubtedly better than any LS before and it takes time spent with the car to figure that out.

Last point on the LS: The ES has become Lexus' silent killer, offing the GS, impacting the LS (larger size, same looks, half the price), and succeeding the IS in many international markets. Really none of Lexus' sedans are safe from the ES, and now, the LS is probably most vulnerable.

All of that said, as much as I think the LS should have had a V8, I think the TTV6 is the perfect powertrain for large trucks and SUVs that need torque, flexibility and better MPG where possible, and are less focused on S Class-rivaling smoothness. I hope that after 5 years of tuning the V35A-FTS in the LS 500 and refining it for the 2021 model year, Toyota has learned a few things, improved the gearing, refined the throttle response and found ways to reduce turbo lag. I can tell there's a lot of potential in this motor, it just needs some further work and refinement, so we should see what this latest-and-greatest version is like in the Tundra soon enough. It is wholly better than the 5.7L V8 for smoothness, acceleration and responsiveness - and my comparison to that is the LS 500, which should now be improved upon.

No V8 option (while all competitors have it), cabin space (packaging of the platform), refinement (turbo lag, regression on NVH to last LS), being marketed as sporty (but it is neither as sporty as 7er nor as comfortable as an S class, just go with one lol), hybrid model very underpowered (plus the rubber banding weird sensation and high revving noise, iForce Max should solve it probably), technology and infotainment still leaves a lot to be desired. A long list to improve upon for sure.

 

[Demetrius]

Good points. I think the LS was victim to a little too much change all at once with the V8 being one part of that. LS owners like a level of smoothness and prestige that the TTV6 didn't offer at first (smoothness) and probably still doesn't offer (prestige). I think something like the new Tundra iForce MAX powertrain would have been the perfect candidate for the LS because it's prestigious and very sophisticated (cache) but probably also very smooth and very fast. It's logical to assume that will go into the next LS, which I expect to offer an all-hybrid and electric lineup.

The LS also lost a fair bit of headroom and thus that loungy comfortable feeling that so many LS buyers love. The rear seat is fairly tight and at 6', I have to slouch down if I sit in the rear. The rest of the interior is also a big change, though a lot of it is wholly better than it has ever been. The features and technology are undoubtedly better than any LS before and it takes time spent with the car to figure that out.

Last point on the LS: The ES has become Lexus' silent killer, offing the GS, impacting the LS (larger size, same looks, half the price), and succeeding the IS in many international markets. Really none of Lexus' sedans are safe from the ES, and now, the LS is probably most vulnerable.

All of that said, as much as I think the LS should have had a V8, I think the TTV6 is the perfect powertrain for large trucks and SUVs that need torque, flexibility and better MPG where possible, and are less focused on S Class-rivaling smoothness. I hope that after 5 years of tuning the V35A-FTS in the LS 500 and refining it for the 2021 model year, Toyota has learned a few things, improved the gearing, refined the throttle response and found ways to reduce turbo lag. I can tell there's a lot of potential in this motor, it just needs some further work and refinement, so we should see what this latest-and-greatest version is like in the Tundra soon enough. It is wholly better than the 5.7L V8 for smoothness, acceleration and responsiveness - and my comparison to that is the LS 500, which should now be improved upon.

Agreed on all fronts. Toyota is banking heavy on this V35A-FTS, and they need to get it right as it spreads throughout ToMoCo.

Good point bringing up the ES. It looks much too similar to the LS, which is good for the ES and not for the LS. The average non-Lexus enthusiast simply could not tell the difference when passing by.

I'm not and never have been the target audience for the LS, so admittedly I never spent much time thinking about what it needs to be segment leading/competitive.
I think the 6LS will probably have some bespoke technology to set it apart from both the ES and its competition. Things like a fully electric variant, a hydrogen variant, fully autonomous package, etc. Having a truly unique look would help as well.

 

[ssun30]

@Gecko I think the V35 has been so problematic on LS500 is ultimately related to the car. Lexus is very confused with what they want to do with 5LS. Do they want to focus on sportiness or comfort? It really is an either-or situation on a downsized V6TT. This is a problem a NA V8 won't have (best example is 2UR, it is both sporty and smooth).

I think the truck tune will be less confusing because the goal is quite clear: make tons of torque for off-road and towing.

I don't know what kind of turbocharger they use. A low hanging fruit would be changing to a long inertia ball bearing turbo like on G16E-GTS. It will add cost but the V35 is not cheap in the first place.

 

[Gecko]

@Gecko I think the V35 has been so problematic on LS500 is ultimately related to the car. Lexus is very confused with what they want to do with 5LS. Do they want to focus on sportiness or comfort? It really is an either-or situation on a downsized V6TT. This is a problem a NA V8 won't have (best example is 2UR, it is both sporty and smooth).

I think the truck tune will be less confusing because the goal is quite clear: make tons of torque for off-road and towing.

I don't know what kind of turbocharger they use. A low hanging fruit would be changing to a long inertia ball bearing turbo like on G16E-GTS. It will add cost but the V35 is not cheap in the first place.

Totally agree. I'm no expert on the 2JZ, but I feel like I've read that part of what made the TT model so great is that it used different sized turbos: one that was smaller and spooled up much faster for low end power, and a larger one that took slightly more time and mid-level rpms to deliver top end power. I don't know if the V35A-FTS uses something similar but if not, maybe such a setup would help solve that engine's "dead zone" and turbo lag in the LS 500. (Am I wrong about 2JZ? I might be)

I'm eager to learn more about the Tundra's tune - and really the Land Cruiser as well - to see what changes were made. I also think improvements to throttle response and tip-in would help greatly. It didn't feel very linear in the LS 500... there can be times where you apply maybe 20-30% throttle and then the engine releases all 416hp on you at once, and others where you can ask for 70-90% power and the engine takes its time deciding what it wants to do and then deliver. For merging, passing or pulling out in traffic, I found that very unnerving. My biggest gripe with the LS 500 is that it's just not a predictable car to drive for this reason.

Our GX and Camry are slower of course, but when you put your foot down, you get immediate downshift and power delivery, it's linear, and it makes both easy to drive. It also makes both feel much quicker off the line - even the GX - because they respond so much faster. With the LS, you're never quite sure what level of power you're going to get and it can make the car seem jerky or unpredictable to drive. Even in watching some of the infamous Land Cruiser 300 drag race videos, you see many of the V8 competitors jump off the line very quickly - faster than the 300 - but the Land Cruiser quickly reels them in and then blows them away. This is, of course, just due to the nature of a turbocharged motor, but it also shows that the linearity of a NA motor is something very hard to master with turbos.

My time in the LS 500 gave me a great appreciation for the B58, though I am not a huge fan of the Supra. It's clear that over time BMW has perfected the turbocharged 6cylinder from every angle: throttle response, power delivery, linearity, gear changes, etc. It is a magnificent engine and I hope with time, Toyota can work some similar magic on the V35A-FTS.

 

[Levi]

V35A-FTS would be not be as special is 2UR, but would be appreciated in the IS compared to 2GR. IS is the only na 6cyl, its competitors only have turbo 6cyl, 2GR performance wise competes against turbo 4cyl.

 

[spwolf]

V35A-FTS would be not be as special is 2UR, but would be appreciated in the IS compared to 2GR. IS is the only na 6cyl, its competitors only have turbo 6cyl, 2GR performance wise competes against turbo 4cyl.

well in IS, you can get V8 for the price of competitors V6, so not sure if that is the right complaint there.

 

[Levi]

well in IS, you can get V8 for the price of competitors V6, so not sure if that is the right complaint there.

not complaining. what do we get in the ES? with new NX, ES engines are a joke.

 

[spwolf]

not complaining. what do we get in the ES? with new NX, ES engines are a joke.

I wonder if 2.4t will be upgrade for ES, probably not for American buyers.

At some point, everything is a joke.

 

[b.ba]

I haven't checked CL in the last ~2-3 days so if Carmaker1 has been "outed", it had to be from then to now. But before that I have seen NO evidence that Carmaker1 has been "just" quoting other people's pages. You and I both know that he has some insane insider knowledge and he was the one that gave a ton of credence to what is happening now. He has a metric ton of industry experience, and that shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt.

You're free to not follow him, but to discredit and drag him flat-out when he's not here to defend himself is disingenuous at best.

The LC F died when the trademark got killed off. That was the final nail in the coffin.

However there were a few sources corroborating what Carmaker1 said (including one that reached out to me in private, but kept it on the down low) that there was in fact a private showing in Texas with the LC and the twin-turbocharged V8 and one of them in particular tried to imply that was the case with eerie clues while they were at it. I had to piece things together.

We don't know this. Now, if the TTV8 is dead, Lexus or Toyota wouldn't have been cagey about it. They would have flat-out said that the TTV8 is dead. Note that Toyota and Lexus has always been cagey when either a product is in the works or is AT least being considered. If it wasn't, they'd have literally zero incentive to hide that. Zilch.

We'll have to see. Time will only tell.

@Carmaker1 still checks these forums from time to time

 

[ssun30]

Totally agree. I'm no expert on the 2JZ, but I feel like I've read that part of what made the TT model so great is that it used different sized turbos: one that was smaller and spooled up much faster for low end power, and a larger one that took slightly more time and mid-level rpms to deliver top end power. I don't know if the V35A-FTS uses something similar but if not, maybe such a setup would help solve that engine's "dead zone" and turbo lag in the LS 500. (Am I wrong about 2JZ? I might be)

2JZ uses same size for primary and secondary turbos. Instead of switching between small turbo and big turbo it switches between single turbo and parallel turbo operation. F33 diesel is exactly the same and Toyota call it 'two-stage' turbocharging which is a misnomer.

Sequential turbo is impractical on 60 degree V6 like V35 because the exhaust headers need to wrap around the block. That's why it's found on Boxer/Inline/90 degree hot-V.

 

[Demetrius]

2JZ uses same size for primary and secondary turbos. Instead of switching between small turbo and big turbo it switches between single turbo and parallel turbo operation. F33 diesel is exactly the same and Toyota call it 'two-stage' turbocharging which is a misnomer.

Sequential turbo is impractical on 60 degree V6 like V35 because the exhaust headers need to wrap around the block. That's why it's found on Boxer/Inline/90 degree hot-V.

Speaking of, that patent that Toyota filed last year for the 90 degree hot-V engine---what is the first application we know of that Toyota will be using it on? I know the patent showed a V8, but that's unlikely at this point. No new V6 development we know of. Would it be the 2.4T?

 

[Ian Schmidt]

No V8 option (while all competitors have it), cabin space (packaging of the platform), refinement (turbo lag, regression on NVH to last LS), being marketed as sporty (but it is neither as sporty as 7er nor as comfortable as an S class, just go with one lol), hybrid model very underpowered (plus the rubber banding weird sensation and high revving noise, iForce Max should solve it probably), technology and infotainment still leaves a lot to be desired. A long list to improve upon for sure.

Refinement is much improved in the 2021 (including engine noise and ride quality), and the low-end power is much better. I think it was @LS500-18 who mentioned how you'd sometimes pull out into traffic in the 18-20 LS and stomp the pedal and nothing happened. That's fixed in the 2021 (and really should be a free ECU/TCU update for the 18-20).

I don't know how you define sporty, but the 5LS drives like a car half its size on twisty roads. I maintain you can't understand the car until you fling it around some curves for a while, even though that's probably unrealistic for most owners. I'm lucky enough that the shortest route for my daily commute is very curvy, and that's one of the reasons I really like the 5LS in spite of its faults. Driving a 4LS on the same route required more effort and was occasionally terrifying, by contrast.

 

[Alshamsi]

I wonder if 2.4t will be upgrade for ES, probably not for American buyers.

At some point, everything is a joke.

As a 19" ES 350 owner, I'd get the 2.4t in a heartbeat.
The v6 engine is so bad paired to the Long-geared 8-Speed, it's so low on torque.

 

[LS500-18]

That's fixed in the 2021 (and really should be a free ECU/TCU update for the 18-20).

Lexus should contact all 18-20 LS owners and provide a free ECU update, but we know that won't happen. If ever they release a TSB to fix the sluggishness and occasional complete unresponsiveness off the line, let me know. I just don't think I'll buy another turbo vehicle again if I can help it. I've had two V6 twin turbo cars and the lag off the line just grates on me over time, as the majority of my driving is city driving.

 

[ssun30]

Speaking of, that patent that Toyota filed last year for the 90 degree hot-V engine---what is the first application we know of that Toyota will be using it on? I know the patent showed a V8, but that's unlikely at this point. No new V6 development we know of. Would it be the 2.4T?

F33A-FTV diesel. 2.4T is I4.

 

[Levi]

Lexus should contact all 18-20 LS owners and provide a free ECU update, but we know that won't happen. If ever they release a TSB to fix the sluggishness and occasional complete unresponsiveness off the line, let me know. I just don't think I'll buy another turbo vehicle again if I can help it. I've had two V6 twin turbo cars and the lag off the line just grates on me over time, as the majority of my driving is city driving.

that is where toyota's hybrid system fixes the lag, in a way more efficient and strong way than electric driven turbo, which only deletes lag, but does not improve efficiency.


side note, Lexus has no more excuse for low power, when chinese brands and now german (mercedes c range) are nor pushing over 400 ps with turbo hybrid I4.

 

[ssun30]

My time in the LS 500 gave me a great appreciation for the B58, though I am not a huge fan of the Supra. It's clear that over time BMW has perfected the turbocharged 6cylinder from every angle: throttle response, power delivery, linearity, gear changes, etc. It is a magnificent engine and I hope with time, Toyota can work some similar magic on the V35A-FTS.

One thing I mentioned a while ago but I'll still bring up is the use of software-based anti-lag used by European car makers. In sport mode the ECU allows ignition timing to be slightly delayed when the driver demands boost. This creates a short burst of hot exhaust that has higher energy to spool up the turbo faster. The downside is the temperature shock it creates could impact reliability although we know B48/58 are quite reliable for European engines. The impact on fuel economy is negligible but how aggressive the manufacturer do it is limited by emissions. The reduction in spool up time is 10% to 30% depending on conditions and aggressiveness of the tune.

I don't know how widely used this 'trick' is. From my knowledge PSA/VW/BMW are known to use it (Mercedes doesn't) and BMW is the most aggressive. But this is something Toyota is very unlikely to do.

 

[mikeavelli]

I will never understand how the LS didn’t get the 5.0 option. A LS 500 F SPORT Performance would be in the garage if I can also get the luxury package in the rear.

Feedback I gave years ago was I couldn’t believe BMW made an I8 before Lexus. I always felt there was an opportunity for a real performance hybrid. Think 5.0 hybrid with 500hp getting 30mpg. Not something called a 500 making 360hp making 33 mpg.

but what do I know lol….

 

[carguy420]

https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/21-09-20_faq_t24-engine_en.htm
Diagrams of the T24A-FTS.