I'm probably going to get shot for saying this but I never really liked the PS hybrid, no doubt they get great fuel economy especially in stop and go traffic, but the performance and driving feel leaves much to be desired IMO, they just don't quite have that direct and punchcy feel when you step on the throttle. Honestly kinda want Toyota to implement P2 hybrid into their regular cars. Btw would P2 hybrid actually be cheaper than PS hybrid since it's much simpler than PS?
- Thread starter ssun30
- Start date
qtb007
Follower
- Messages
- 488
- Reactions
- 745
I'd wager that there are wayyyyy fewer moving parts in the parallel style hybrids because you drop the complex multi-gear transmission for relatively simple dual motors attached to a torque split device. Multi-gear transmissions are super complex, so while the Tundra is simple in concept, it has an ultra complex 10 speed auto parked between the housing motor and transfer case.
I think that the P2 makes a lot of sense in longitudinal drivetrains, though, because the vehicles usually can deal with the length added by the housing motor setup. Having power routed through a transmission, transfer case, prop shafts, and f/r diffs is a good thing for something like a Tundra.
The issue with the parallel systems are ultimately design decisions. Toyota gives the vehicles just enough power and nothing more. The Rav4 hybrid feels pretty darn nice. But then they throw a really similar drivetrain into something like the Highlander or Sienna where it feels strained. The UX would feel great with the A25A hybrid... but they chose to put the M20A hybrid in it. Corolla could have the 180hp M20A hybrid... but instead gets the 125hp 2ZR hybrid. I would say that Camry and Rav should be the benchmarks on how to do a hybrid.
Its all kind of moot anyway. The Rav4 Prime and NX 450h+ prove that the engine attached to the system will matter little in the near future.
I find it very interesting a TMEC senior engineer has always been very critical of THS and thinks it's a mistake, even though he played a crucial role in developing one of the best hybrid systems in the world (A25-FXS '300h'). His opinion is Toyota should have switched to a mix of serial (for economy) and P2 parallel (for performance/utility) earlier. He thinks the only reason THS is so good is 2 decades of experience but not fundamental superiority. He admits because of the mechanical simplicity (much fewer moving parts than P2), THS hybrids are almost as reliable as their ICEVs, but also argues that's one more reason to go for serial hybrid which further simplifies the mechanical parts.
My understanding is PS was a compromise made when electric motors and batteries are big and heavy and mechanical transmissions are very inefficient (think about 90s AT, you can even feel the transmission fluid sucking away all the power). It was never the best solution for every situation but overtime became very versatile and scalable that it could fit in most products they sell. As for cost PS HEV is already similar to ICEV but P2 is always more expensive than an ICEV.
Toyota decided P2 for passenger cars was not worth it after they tested it on the Estima and Crown hybrid in mid 2000s. The P2 system for Tundra was originally developed for Hino medium-duty trucks and is a proven design with 10 years of commercial service. Then there is THS-R for their Le Mans cars, they've talked about adapting it to road cars since 2017 but we still haven't seen it happen.
As for driving feel it's entirely a matter of calibration. PS can be made very punchy and responsive as in the example of last-gen ChDM Corolla Hybrid. It was faster in 0-50km/h than BMW 320i but they scaled back power response in the current-gen after customers complained last-gen was too sensitive and jerky. S220 Crown hybrid with multi-stage can go from EV mode to max power in 300ms so that's definitely not an inherent problem with PS.
yes. it has unfortunately been like that. the customers that want reliability and performance are a very tiny niche, because performance customers in general have another requirement, which is badge status. toyota does have some pet projects as we say, but they just have to compromise between performance and price (think GT86 and LFA, all that is between).
Because cars are also meant to carry more than one person. For passengers a jerky car is a very unpleasant experience. That's actually a reason a lot of people who rode in my BYD Qin decided to never buy an EV.
Toyota actually took that feedback in C-HR EV too. They artificially added a 300ms ramp-up period in throttle mapping to simulate the typical response time of a naturally aspirated ICEV.
We are so used to automobile only carrying one person that we forget passengers experience very differently to drivers.
Geely launched its Leishen Power lineup of hybrid systems claiming world's highest efficiency hybrid ICE and world's most compact two-motor hybrid transaxle:
The Leishen Power series consists of two ICE and two hybrid transaxles:
>> DHE15 is a 1.5L I3, turbocharged, Miller cycle ICE with low pressure EGR. Output is 110kW(150PS) and 225N.m(166lb.ft) and max thermal efficiency is 43.3%. Its direct comparison is M20A-FXS with 112kW/190N.m/41%.
>> DHE20 is basically scaled up version with one more cylinder. Output is unknown but rumored to be 161kW(220PS) and 320N.m(236lb.ft) with similar thermal efficiency.
>> DHT is a single-stage dual-motor serial-parallel hybrid transaxle with similar operating mechanism as Honda i-MMD. Like THS-II all hybrid components are in one package.
>> DHT Pro adds a three-stage planetary gearset (similar to Toyota's multi-stage concept) to allow much higher torque capacity and high speed efficiency. At 120kg it could output 4920N.m of torque to the drive axis.
>> Like THS it's highly modular allowing for full-hybrid, range-extended EV and plug-in hybrid layout. The architecture could be scaled up to 475kW(650PS) in eAWD PHEV form. THS-II in its current form is scalable to just half that amount.
>> Claimed fuel economy of DHE15+DHT Pro is 3.6L/100km (65MPG-US) for a mid-size crossover. That's 23% lower than RAV4 Hybrid although the cycle is unspecified.
There are other similarly impressive hybrid systems launched early this year. One common theme is 40+% efficiency ICE and integrated hybrid transaxle with Honda-style serial-parallel architecture. It is worth noting all these ICEs cannot operate without a hybrid system. So the high efficiency is probably from a very high degree of electrification. I would say they are still behind in ICE technology although that gap has reduced to 5-6 years (Toyota originally developed a 42% ICE for 2015 Prius but decided to kill it since it was not worth the cost and stayed with an ESTEC evolution of 2ZR-FXE instead).
While Toyota still has a huge lead in hybrid control software and NVH, the weaknesses of PS-style THS (power and full speed-range efficiency) are becoming increasingly vulnerable. Because new regulations heavily favor HEVs, Toyota/Honda could no longer take their duopoly for granted. Let's hope TMC doesn't rest on its laurels. Seriously, when the very engineers who developed THS-II get frustrated with the lack of power and efficiency, they need something truly innovating with the 2025 powertrain overhaul (THS-III?) instead of an evolution of current THS-II.
The Leishen Power series consists of two ICE and two hybrid transaxles:
>> DHE15 is a 1.5L I3, turbocharged, Miller cycle ICE with low pressure EGR. Output is 110kW(150PS) and 225N.m(166lb.ft) and max thermal efficiency is 43.3%. Its direct comparison is M20A-FXS with 112kW/190N.m/41%.
>> DHE20 is basically scaled up version with one more cylinder. Output is unknown but rumored to be 161kW(220PS) and 320N.m(236lb.ft) with similar thermal efficiency.
>> DHT is a single-stage dual-motor serial-parallel hybrid transaxle with similar operating mechanism as Honda i-MMD. Like THS-II all hybrid components are in one package.
>> DHT Pro adds a three-stage planetary gearset (similar to Toyota's multi-stage concept) to allow much higher torque capacity and high speed efficiency. At 120kg it could output 4920N.m of torque to the drive axis.
>> Like THS it's highly modular allowing for full-hybrid, range-extended EV and plug-in hybrid layout. The architecture could be scaled up to 475kW(650PS) in eAWD PHEV form. THS-II in its current form is scalable to just half that amount.
>> Claimed fuel economy of DHE15+DHT Pro is 3.6L/100km (65MPG-US) for a mid-size crossover. That's 23% lower than RAV4 Hybrid although the cycle is unspecified.
There are other similarly impressive hybrid systems launched early this year. One common theme is 40+% efficiency ICE and integrated hybrid transaxle with Honda-style serial-parallel architecture. It is worth noting all these ICEs cannot operate without a hybrid system. So the high efficiency is probably from a very high degree of electrification. I would say they are still behind in ICE technology although that gap has reduced to 5-6 years (Toyota originally developed a 42% ICE for 2015 Prius but decided to kill it since it was not worth the cost and stayed with an ESTEC evolution of 2ZR-FXE instead).
While Toyota still has a huge lead in hybrid control software and NVH, the weaknesses of PS-style THS (power and full speed-range efficiency) are becoming increasingly vulnerable. Because new regulations heavily favor HEVs, Toyota/Honda could no longer take their duopoly for granted. Let's hope TMC doesn't rest on its laurels. Seriously, when the very engineers who developed THS-II get frustrated with the lack of power and efficiency, they need something truly innovating with the 2025 powertrain overhaul (THS-III?) instead of an evolution of current THS-II.
Last edited:
Personally I really question the true performance and efficiency of Geely's regular non-hybrid powetrains based on the real world driving done by my country's car journalists and owners of the rebadged cars that came to fruition from the Proton-Geely partnership, so I'm quite sceptical about their hybrid systems.
I really hope TMC has something ready to replace THS-II that will be a big step forward in power and efficiency, but what are the right improvements and changes they should make though?
I really hope TMC has something ready to replace THS-II that will be a big step forward in power and efficiency, but what are the right improvements and changes they should make though?
Specs are cool, real life is why Toyota is so far ahead.
Only reason their sales are so up in Europe is superiority of their hybrid system.
It is also way more realiable than their own ice powertrains.
So they will definitly not change to P2 system, they would be losing all the benefits that matter to them and their customers.
Germans basically have up on full hybrids and are moving to plugins since they can't catch up so they are skipping one step.
Toyota will on other hand produce 2m full hybrids this year, and it would have been 2.5m if not for shortages.
Only reason their sales are so up in Europe is superiority of their hybrid system.
It is also way more realiable than their own ice powertrains.
So they will definitly not change to P2 system, they would be losing all the benefits that matter to them and their customers.
Germans basically have up on full hybrids and are moving to plugins since they can't catch up so they are skipping one step.
Toyota will on other hand produce 2m full hybrids this year, and it would have been 2.5m if not for shortages.
The thing is that TMC's hybrids are so good, that for them to make PHEVs is "child's play". Out of nowhere, the RAV4 is now the best plug-in available, with all the qualities of the best possible hybrid, best e-range, and now even good performance and best performance in the Toyota range after Supra. Is the RAV4 PHEV expensive? Yes, but so are other ones, yet in the long run it might be the cheapest thanks to its reliability.
Gecko
Administrator
- Messages
- 4,914
- Reactions
- 11,856
Toyota Leak Reveals Corolla Hot Hatch, Land Cruiser Replacement Coming Soon
A Reddit leak offers details on upcoming Toyota vehicles in 2022 including the Corolla GRhot hatch and an all-new Sequoia that may replace the Land Cruiser.
oh boy!
Toyota Leak Reveals Corolla Hot Hatch, Land Cruiser Replacement Coming Soon
A Reddit leak offers details on upcoming Toyota vehicles in 2022 including the Corolla GRhot hatch and an all-new Sequoia that may replace the Land Cruiser.www.gearpatrol.com
oh boy!
Not really much news imho, as we knew that Toyota wanted USDM LC buyers to move up to the Lexus GX (The MY22 GX is a test case to see whether buyers will respond positively to higher pricing and by assumption GX would be starting at the 60K market if anything to put some distance between it and the RX and 4R) and LX.
The Seq would be repositioned as an alternate to the Expediurbans in that price class.
Hatchback is interesting was this needed or a fleet thing?
Avalon Plus is interesting, as it never moved the needle (Toyota has retried this formula multiple different ways between luxury and sport), especially since the ES existed? With the ES moving to Japan, its interesting if the sales goals for at least USDM are being reconsidered.
A typo?
Gecko
Administrator
- Messages
- 4,914
- Reactions
- 11,856
Not sure what you mean by the GX part? GX price did not change much for 2022 - it still starts around $55k and goes up to about $70k for the Luxury model. I think Toyota's feeling is that between the LX and next-gen Sequoia, the Land Cruiser 300 would have been redundant. Plus, the addition of a Capstone model similar to the Tundra will surely be $70-80k and offer much of what Land Cruiser buyers would have wanted.
Crown replacing the Avalon as a "sedan+" body style in America will be interesting. I am interested to see what it looks like because that formula was ugly for Honda (CrossTour, ZDX) and BMW ("GT" series) but Toyota's own first gen Venza was probably one of the nicest looking ones. I assume that this Crown might share underpinnings with the next gen RX since the RX will need to be larger than the NX/RAV4/Venza and the Crown is a premium Toyota product.
Something like:
"Compact" GA-K: NX, RAV4, Venza, Wildlander, Harrier
"Midsize" GA-K: Camry, ES, Avalon, RX, Crown, Highlander
"Fullsize" GA-K: Grand Highlander, TX, Sienna??
Can you point me to this $55k sticker MY22 GX on a dealership lot? BTW the GX had started in previous years at $53, 250 and now its $55,425.
Speaking from experience for MY2014 onwards, GX had three variants, majority of sales were concentrated on the Premium variant, while we saw minor allocations and sales in the Lux and Base trim. 2021 GX introduced the premium plus which pushed the needle around the 60k mark with an in demand option folks were clamoring for (ML). The black line special addition model removed the ML sound system but the MSRP on the vehicles are at the 60k mark. Most vehicles on dealers lot are closer to the 60k number then I have ever seen in the past.
One would assume well, de-contented vehicles should be negatively perceived by the customer base (unless your Porsche), and yet customers seem to be responding very well since as of this writing the GX is on track to having the best sales year (2nd best) since 2005.
I'm expecting that Lexus is going to push the GX up to the 60k, make it appeal to the Bronco/Overlander crew with a family who don't want to rough it out with the 4R and something that will cover the market gap Lexus had literally nothing to offer. Remember the GX taps out at high 60s and LX started mid-high 80s.
The reason I mentioned LC buyers pushing over to the GX is, the Ih8muders who really push their vehicles dont have an upgrade path. 2nd hand LC and LX market (which toyota makes zero direct $$$) was crazy and now is absolutely insane, this would be a possible way to monetize those "lost customers".
Crown+ makes sense, just as my favorite Audi could be a hypothetical A5 Sportback Allroad. The Toyota bZ sedan render also looks like some type of +vehicle mix of sedan and wagon plus lift. WRX now is like a lifted sedan, Allroad from Audi now has competitor from Mercedes as All-Terrain. Aygo X is going with a lift, CT went with a lift as UX. After 2000, cars were really all about sport, lower and such. In the same time strict road limit measures were put in place with road bumps and the kind. In addition road infrastructure has degraded in same places. I like lifted cars (daily's) because they feel better to drive on bad roads than normal sports cars, but also still feel sportier than trucks/suvs.
Honda Crosstour and ZDX were ahead of time. For BMW 3er/5er/6er GT did not work, because their core audience is sedans/coupes or they go right to cuvs. Toyota has a different customer, a lift might just give some versions the edge. Aygo X is a niche in Europe now, so are non premium sedans. I see something like a Camry X, Crown X. Lifted Impreza (XV/Crosstrek) is simply the best selling version of the family, and there is a reason for it, despite the low performing NA engines.
Honda Crosstour and ZDX were ahead of time. For BMW 3er/5er/6er GT did not work, because their core audience is sedans/coupes or they go right to cuvs. Toyota has a different customer, a lift might just give some versions the edge. Aygo X is a niche in Europe now, so are non premium sedans. I see something like a Camry X, Crown X. Lifted Impreza (XV/Crosstrek) is simply the best selling version of the family, and there is a reason for it, despite the low performing NA engines.
Gecko
Administrator
- Messages
- 4,914
- Reactions
- 11,856
I'm sure you know how it works: $55k + destination + rear cargo cover + tint + floor mats = $58k+, and just about 8 months ago, those vehicles were "haveable" around $50-52k but the covid bubble sent prices soaring due to inventory shortages. I bought mine in April with an MSRP of ~$69k and paid about $62,500 before prices went crazy like they are now.
GX has been up and down during this generation (2010+) first offering just base and premium trims, then adding luxury later and restructuring the base to be cheaper with Nuluxe interior to bring down the price, then adding premium plus for 2021 and now black line for 2022. Lexus is wisely covering more and more space with the GX to do what works, and I agree with you that prices are inching up overall with product line expansion.
I also know what you mean with the GX's resurgence in the "overlanding" market but I think those folks get an outsized voice on the internet when the real GX buyer is soccer moms and dads who don't want an MDX or RX. I don't realistically think there are a lot of Land Cruiser buyers (to begin with) who are now going to GX... seems most are interested in the new Tundra, LX or waiting for the Sequoia. Of course there is the enthusiast crowd who seems to be going to the 4Runner and GX, but most of those folks buy used like you state.
Lexus also has the TX coming online soon, so in the next few years, we are likely going to see:
$50-60k RX
$55-65k TX
$60-80k GX (more models, more options, more focused for 3rd gen)
$90k+ LX (off road, 2 row, 3 row, ultra luxury, hybrid, etc
Lots of product -- across the spectrum!
Gecko
Administrator
- Messages
- 4,914
- Reactions
- 11,856
Totally agree. I think something like "Camry Cross" with the V6, ~7" of ground clearance, wagon-esque cargo and AWD would basically be a dream car. Maybe the Crown will be similar but with premium touches and design.
