Lexus UX 300e Megathread

[spwolf]

Maybe they're not selling a lot BEV's because some of them are complete crap like @internalaudit said... Leaf (no TMS, rear torsion bar), ZOE (what a piece of crap, awful build quality, rear torsion bar), Kona (wtf are those interior materials... Seems worse than my fathers 1991 Corolla, just hard plastics everywhere, rear torsion bar)… And all of these almost double of price from regular cars... They should try building a proper one....


@Ian Schmidt , in my opinion Toyota's HSD is unmatched even today! They're clearly ahead of everyone. This being said, there was someone inside Toyota who believed on BEV's, I mean, it could be too expensive but they did build a BEV production version of the iQ in 2012... Maybe he got fired or retired I don't know...
Even their hybrid strategy could be a lot better, they needed 18 (1997) years to launch a hybrid sports car (Lexus RC) that's not available worldwide, they needed 25 years to do a hybrid supercar (GR Super Sports)... They're trying with the new dual hybrid strategy, but they needed 22 years to do it... Even the 500h engine, why isn't available for the RC?

If you think Toyota is slow with hybrids, what do you think of other companies that dont sell 5% of Toyota volume, hybrid wise?
I mean they will sell 2,000,000 hybrids in 2019.

Nobody else will sell 10% of that. They are constantly innovating them and improving them.

If you are not happy about that, then what can they do?

Realistically, TMC can not build car for everyone... I think it is perfectly acceptable to buy other brands. I drive A7 3.0 TFSI right now.

 

[internalaudit]

^ Are you in Germany? Locals get good rebates when buying local cars, correct?

 

[Will1991]

@spwolf , good point, can't argue with that, they do keep improving on hybrid sales consistently since 1997. Specially Lexus, here in Portugal is like 99% hybrids.

 

[internalaudit]

@spwolf , good point, can't argue with that, they do keep improving on hybrid sales consistently since 1997. Specially Lexus, here in Portugal is like 99% hybrids.

Portuguese seem a very smart crowd. So many advantages to Toyota hybrids versus regular ICEV besides fuel economy. I didn't know until I joined and read stuff on RAV4World.

I shake my head when I tell my friends about the advantages yet they don't seem to care lol. It's their pocket books waiting to be fleeced.

They are concerned about the battery that at most is $3k to replace.

 

[flexus]

@spwolf , good point, can't argue with that, they do keep improving on hybrid sales consistently since 1997. Specially Lexus, here in Portugal is like 99% hybrids.

If you think Toyota is slow with hybrids, what do you think of other companies that dont sell 5% of Toyota volume, hybrid wise?
I mean they will sell 2,000,000 hybrids in 2019.

Nobody else will sell 10% of that. They are constantly innovating them and improving them.

If you are not happy about that, then what can they do?

Realistically, TMC can not build car for everyone... I think it is perfectly acceptable to buy other brands. I drive A7 3.0 TFSI right now.

It's amazing that in Europe and Japan hybrid share is over 50%. I just hope hybrid share will grow much more in US. I need to add that in Japan Nissan has biggest hybrid share and Honda is second (Toyota is 3rd). Nissan and Honda could push more hybrids to overseas market but they haven't and I don't know why. Qashqai e-power would boost sales 50%.

 

[CRSKTN]

In some areas the hybrid option is the only one, right?

 

[BenzCity]

^ Are you in Germany? Locals get good rebates when buying local cars, correct?

They don't.

 

[ssun30]

Even Ford has this figured out...... well everything except torque vectoring

UPDATE: Ford Mustang Mach-E Revealed To The World Ahead Of Schedule

And here it is. The Ford Mustang Mach-E electric crossover. Revealed by Ford ahead of schedule. feast your eyes on this and check out these specs.

insideevs.com

Lucky for Americans that Ford could focus their EV effort on USDM. They now barely has a presence in ChDM so they don't have to divert all their attention to meet the dual-credit requirements. GM has a similar problem as Toyota in that their ChDM volume is so high they have to basically give up EVs in USDM in the short term.

 

[internalaudit]

I think by 2025, if Lexus or Toyota delay offering compelling or value BEV so much, we will be seeing each other on the taycanforum, acurazine, bimmerpost/bimmerfest, etc. I don't even know what Audi forum to check because I am currently bent on buying a Lexus but if they're the UX, NX and RX, my hopes will be shattered (AWD sedan with torque vectoring) but my wife's dream will come true (NX).

 

[Enthusiast88]

Lexus International President Yoshihiro Sawa: “Our cars with nickel-metal hydride batteries [hybrid cars] are doing well,” he said. “They [nickel-metal hydride batteries] are expensive. Lithium batteries, on the other hand, are cheaper.

Paraphrased, but it's clear he is lying like a politician. :-(

 

[Sulu]

I have tried to stay out of the direct Lexus vs German brands comparisons that some are trying to make. My opinion is that a direct comparison is not possible, especially when it comes to drivetrains -- hybrids (Lexus) vs EV (Germans).

Each brand designs their vehicles to sell in their largest or most-significant market (usually home) market(s). Lexus' largest and most-significant markets are Japan and the USA. The German brands' largest and most-significant market is their home market, Germany and Europe. The American and European markets are very different.

The American market (Lexus' significant market) is ruled by low fuel prices; Americans largely (other than automotive critics) are not fans of diesel-powered cars and SUVs; and other than Tesla (which is only a small brand, with a small market share), Americans are not fans of EVs either, because of high purchase prices, relatively short range and long refuelling (recharging) times, lack of recharging infrastructure, and few models available. All of this means that the gasoline-powered internal combustion engine and hybrid gasoline-electric vehicles are king in the USA.

The Japanese market is not (yet) heavily into BEVs; the Japanese has been pushing for a hydrogen economy (thus hydrogen fuel-cells). The Japanese were not fans of diesels either, and have been pushing small gasoline engines and hybrids.

In Europe (obviously the Germans' significant market), however, diesel-powered cars were long encouraged by governments for their greater fuel-efficiency and low CO2 emissions; but diesel exhaust emissions are dirtier and more difficult to clean than gasoline exhaust emissions, and more and more jurisdictions are banning diesels because of the dirty emissions (any North American who has vacationed in a large European city can attest to that). Dieselgate did not help either. Because of this, the European automakers are effectively being forced into EVs to maintain low CO2 emissions.

The German luxury brands also have another differentiator compared to Lexus: Their marketing abilities (the ability to trumpet and show off their own accomplishments) are much better than Lexus. Toyota and Lexus are very Japanese in this regard; they are very conservative and very quiet, with poor selling abilities.

This all means that Lexus still prefers hybrids, whereas the Germans are heavily pushing EVs. And if we are easily and heavily swayed by automakers' marketing, the newer EV must be king. Lexus will not market vehicles that it cannot sell; it cannot sell EVs in the USA but it can sell hybrids in the USA, its largest market. The Germans are being forced to sell EVs in their largest market.

 

[CRSKTN]

Companies, when discussing their outlook, should be trying to figure out what sort of markets they'll be selling into in 10, 15, 20+ years, not just how to optimize how they sell into what their markets currently look like.

The comments made before are right, when everyone is using mass manufactured, reliable EV sleds, what's going to set TMC/Lexus apart?
I think they are trying to carve a niche for themselves, but people are right to be concerned that Toyota's timelines are so long-term that as a car enthusiast, the wait can be excessive and the product lineup overly risk averse.

It's the difference between prioritizing customer excitement vs prioritizing very-long-term corporate health/stability. I think a large part of it is cultural. Nobody wants to be part of the team that damages a long-running, family founded Japanese institution.

That said, we are fortunate to be living through a structural change in the industry, and all of the frustration and innovation that goes with that.

 

[internalaudit]

Good explanation. Too bad many of us waiting a few years for a Lexus may just be swayed towards German BEVs since their major Achilles heels (engine and transmission) will disappear with BEVs. I have no doubt about that. What's the worst that can happen when it's these timing chain rails and high pressure pump that usually break and they won't be in a BEV to break?

Still rooting for Acura though which has a lot more to gain with BEVs since it already has electric torque vectoring nailed to a tee since 2014.

Competition is great and I may still come back to try Lexus in 2035.

2025 is a long enough wait for me though for my first BEV. Don't think there is anyone more patient and calculated than I am as to what I want and what price range I am willing to consider.

 

[internalaudit]

Toyota/Lexus should read this article and consider how much of the BMW power train helped the Supra land second place

Sports Car Showdown: Supra vs. M2 vs. Shelby GT350 vs. 718 Cayman

Each costing around $60,000 and capable of hitting 60 mph in roughly four seconds, all are laser-focused on driving gratification.

www.caranddriver.com

Re-read this www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2018/tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-330i-vs-genesis-g70-comparison-test/amp/

Then rewatch this Edmunds video

And figure out why the future is Electric.

 

[ssun30]

Now there is less than a week until launch, here is my prediction of battery specs and I want to see how close I get.

Capacity 55kWh
Power 140kW
Range 400km WLTP
Charging Power 60kW
Specific Energy 160Wh/kg
Chemistry NCM622

 

[Will1991]

@ssun30 , for the CHR or the Lexus?

For Toyota it may be a good option *if* correctly priced, but if a Lexus BEV goes with only 60kW charging... It’s not good enough!
They have to do as good as Kona, any less than that they’re intentionally making it impossible to sell.

 

[spwolf]

Lexus International President Yoshihiro Sawa: “Our cars with nickel-metal hydride batteries [hybrid cars] are doing well,” he said. “They [nickel-metal hydride batteries] are expensive. Lithium batteries, on the other hand, are cheaper.

Paraphrased, but it's clear he is lying like a politician. :-(

what? He is not lying. NiMH batteries are more expensive for Toyota, and actually TMC now puts NiMH into more expensive cars and new li-on batteries are going only cheaper models first. For instance 1.8l HSD in 2020 CHR gets lion, while 2.0l HSD in CHR gets NiMH.

They can not produce enough of them, so they are gradually doing replacements (1.8l will be >80% of sales) but they keep NiMH for more expensive vehicles.

 

[spwolf]

It's amazing that in Europe and Japan hybrid share is over 50%. I just hope hybrid share will grow much more in US. I need to add that in Japan Nissan has biggest hybrid share and Honda is second (Toyota is 3rd). Nissan and Honda could push more hybrids to overseas market but they haven't and I don't know why. Qashqai e-power would boost sales 50%.

Toyota sells considerably more hybrids in Japan than Nissan and Honda, I think Nissan had only one e-power model until last year?

But reason they sold it only in Japan (that is changing) is due to the price - it was too expensive for them. They dont have same economy of scale that Toyota has, that is why in general you dont see real hybrids from Germans and why their PHEVs are single motor (and thus very bad economy outside EV mode) - it is simply too expensive for them.

 

[ssun30]

@ssun30 , for the CHR or the Lexus?

For Toyota it may be a good option *if* correctly priced, but if a Lexus BEV goes with only 60kW charging... It’s not good enough!
They have to do as good as Kona, any less than that they’re intentionally making it impossible to sell.

Both?

The charging speed is the maximum of China's standard quick charge protocol which is limited at 60kW per outlet. The EUDM variant could have faster charging using CCS.

 

[flexus]

Toyota sells considerably more hybrids in Japan than Nissan and Honda, I think Nissan had only one e-power model until last year?

But reason they sold it only in Japan (that is changing) is due to the price - it was too expensive for them. They dont have same economy of scale that Toyota has, that is why in general you dont see real hybrids from Germans and why their PHEVs are single motor (and thus very bad economy outside EV mode) - it is simply too expensive for them.

Please read carefully: "Nissan has biggest SHARE and Honda is second". Nissan sold 20280 HVs in September what accounts 63.4% of total volume (electrified vehicles accounted 70.5%). Honda sold 17577 HVs which accounted 50.4% of total volume (electrified 50.5%). Toyota instead sold 60074 HVs which only accounted only 42.8% of total volume (electrified 44%). In fact Toyta has been critisized having so low hybrid share.

Nissan has two e-power models; Serena and Note but model like Cima, Xtrail and Skyline are offered in conventional hybrid system.