Lexus UX 300e Megathread

[Will1991]

Some more information came up on Lexus Portugal:
->They're expecting more than 300km WLTP range;
->Sales start between Q3 and Q4 for some European markets, 2021 for all of Europe;
->More cargo than the UX250h (367L vs 283L up to cover and 486L vs 401L up to ceilling.
->7h AC charging (200V@30A)
->50min DC charging 0-80% (125A Max.)

Source: https://www.lexus.pt/discover-lexus/lexus-news/

They keep the same charging speed (50kW) so, it should be the same between Europe and China... Still no info regarding DC charging plug for Europe (hopefully CCS....).

This range is enough for everiday use, my biggest journey is around 320km round trip between where I live and my fathers home (around once a week), so if this doesn't change and correctly priced... Maybe we've a winner for me.

 

[internalaudit]

^ How old is your current vehicle and what's the current value if you were to sell it?

In my case, one of my vehicles has no resale value while the other around $7-8k CAD. So far both aren't being troublesome so I will just wait for that elusive AWD Lexus BEV coming to North America. I doubt I will be saving money if I had to purchase a BEV in 2020 since depreciation is a really cost to car ownership and there's little of that on my two cars.

Of course in a few years' time when BEVs are more compelling, I won't be in the same situation applying financial logic to my next car purchase lol. Still wondering how li-ion batteries will hold up (when everything in the news is about upcoming battery technology) but then again those Ni-Mh batteries on Toyota hybrids are lasting a long time even if their SOC is usually between 30-70%, or maybe even narrower.

 

[krew]

The Lexus UX 300e full-electric crossover will have a range of 186 miles, with a 100mph top speed and a 0-62mph time of 7.5 seconds. The electric motor will produce 201 brake horsepower and 221 lb-ft of torque, with the 54.3kWh underfloor battery capable of DC rapid charging from 0-to-80 percent in 50 minutes.
From Autocar:

Lexus says the UX 300e, built on Toyota’s GA-C platform, has been developed with a focus on on-road performance and the goal of offering a quiet, refined driving experience. To balance the new powertrain, extra bracing has been added and the dampers have been reworked to maintain optimum weight distribution.
According to Lexus, the UX 300e’s powertrain draws on learnings from the firm’s long-running hybrid system and features a temperature management system that balances...

Continue reading...

 

[argh]

Performance figures seem comparable to a 110 kW (147 hp) Leaf. 😴

Hoping the unicorn Lexus BEV (RWD/AWD) manages to wow.

 

[ssun30]

Performance figures seem comparable to a 110 kW (147 hp) Leaf. 😴

Hoping the unicorn Lexus BEV (RWD/AWD) manages to wow.

I don't know how American journliasts test cars, but in general the 0-100km/h times posted by the manufacturer and tested by the media are much slower in the rest of the world, even though the difference between 60mph and 100km/h is only 4%. As an example the Kona EV has an official 0-100km/h time of 7.8s while in the U.S. the tested 0-60mph time is 6.4s.

 

[Dreski]

As a 30 year Lexus employee and an EV enthusiast I’ve been wAiting for a Lexus EV for 10 plus years. Very hopeful at first when I saw the press release and this story , but now....... looks like China and Europe only and if it’s a UX very limited battery capacity , I would guess 33 to 40 kWh Max and Front wheel drive.🙄
I hope I am wrong. Here is the thing isn’t there already a Toyota CHR electric sold in China ? And if Lexus goes through all the trouble to build an electric UX why not offer it in the USA.

It believe it’s because of range. The exact price of the ux bev is parallel to the mod 3. If that’s all the juice it can muster. UXe in the states better align more with the Leaf’s pricing. They can’t bring that range over here and expect Lexus buyers to buy it over a UX 200-300h. If it’s cheaper than a 200, it’s an expensive downgrade. If it’s pricier than a 300h, it’s a rip-off. It needs to be on par. I can’t imagine how a client service rep can vs. this against segment comp. lol

 

[corradoMR2]

Some more information came up on Lexus Portugal:
->They're expecting more than 300km WLTP range;


This range is enough for everiday use, my biggest journey is around 320km round trip between where I live and my fathers home (around once a week), so if this doesn't change and correctly priced... Maybe we've a winner for me.

300+km range for the UX300e is decent for every day use. The concern I have is if the technology is highly sensitive to cold climates, as with other Li-ion BEVs on the market, including my Tesla. In sub freezing winter snowy conditions, my car's range drops significantly by as much 50% making my 400km (summer) BEV really a 200 km car on some winter days! Hopefully, Toyota's ingenuity will have found a way to minimize this impact.

 

[Will1991]

^ How old is your current vehicle and what's the current value if you were to sell it?

In my case, one of my vehicles has no resale value while the other around $7-8k CAD. So far both aren't being troublesome so I will just wait for that elusive AWD Lexus BEV coming to North America. I doubt I will be saving money if I had to purchase a BEV in 2020 since depreciation is a really cost to car ownership and there's little of that on my two cars.

Of course in a few years' time when BEVs are more compelling, I won't be in the same situation applying financial logic to my next car purchase lol. Still wondering how li-ion batteries will hold up (when everything in the news is about upcoming battery technology) but then again those Ni-Mh batteries on Toyota hybrids are lasting a long time even if their SOC is usually between 30-70%, or maybe even narrower.

My current car is a 1999 Avensis with 255.000km, no resale value... I also don't have a lot of problems (I've only replaced an alternator and a clutch, everything else was normal maintenance), so I'm trying to go directly to full BEV. But, braking/suspension/interior noise/confort is a bit off and doing 2000~2500km a month does take a bite on my income (Around 1.6€/L and 7L/100km at 110km/h), fuel savings alone would pay a used GT86 for the weekend...

Reliability is a concern for me, and is another reason why I'm still waiting for a Lexus/Toyota... My sisters Auris HSD is pushing 190.000km without any battery problems.

300+km range for the UX300e is decent for every day use. The concern I have is if the technology is highly sensitive to cold climates, as with other Li-ion BEVs on the market, including my Tesla. In sub freezing winter snowy conditions, my car's range drops significantly by as much 50% making my 400km (summer) BEV really a 200 km car on some winter days! Hopefully, Toyota's ingenuity will have found a way to minimize this impact.

We've some information posted around here regarding temperature control, but since here in Portugal I get minimum -5ºC, it shouldn't be a problem... Toyota China stated even without heating up the battery pack it's able to provide 80kW at-6ºC.

 

[internalaudit]

My current car is a 1999 Avensis with 255.000km, no resale value... I also don't have a lot of problems (I've only replaced an alternator and a clutch, everything else was normal maintenance), so I'm trying to go directly to full BEV. But, braking/suspension/interior noise/confort is a bit off and doing 2000~2500km a month does take a bite on my income (Around 1.6€/L and 7L/100km at 110km/h), fuel savings alone would pay a used GT86 for the weekend...

Reliability is a concern for me, and is another reason why I'm still waiting for a Lexus/Toyota... My sisters Auris HSD is pushing 190.000km without any battery problems.



We've some information posted around here regarding temperature control, but since here in Portugal I get minimum -5ºC, it shouldn't be a problem... Toyota China stated even without heating up the battery pack it's able to provide 80kW at-6ºC.

Across our three vehicles, that 280 Euro / month is about what it cost us to drive around too (work and leisure).

We are soulmates with different sets of parents in the same boat except that many BEVs are going to head to Portugal/Europe before they do to Canada so I'm not as tempted as you to jump on the first Toyota/Lexus BEV.

After having read more on li-ion technology, it seems I would like to wait for next gen battery technology (various SSB's and some beefier Lithium ion ones that aren't as combustible and prone to dendritic growth). Heck, I'd go for one even without torque vectoring if it will save me $20-30k CAD.

 

[corradoMR2]

We've some information posted around here regarding temperature control, but since here in Portugal I get minimum -5ºC, it shouldn't be a problem... Toyota China stated even without heating up the battery pack it's able to provide 80kW at-6ºC.

To be clear, we're not directly talking about battery capacity, but electrical consumption. Consumption increases significantly from below 2-3 C and worsens at -5 C and colder. In practical terms, this is from about 120 Wh/km in summer, to about 180 Wh/km in winter this year, despite a mild winter so far (most days near 0 C when driving). I hope Toyota has a trick up its sleeve to efficiently keep the cells at the optimal temp and minimize this increased consumption in cold weather which is a reality with all Li-BEV vehicles currently on the market today. Solid state cells is the near future to mitigate this issue...

 

[Will1991]

Across our three vehicles, that 280 Euro / month is about what it cost us to drive around too (work and leisure).

We are soulmates with different sets of parents in the same boat except that many BEVs are going to head to Portugal/Europe before they do to Canada so I'm not as tempted as you to jump on the first Toyota/Lexus BEV.

After having read more on li-ion technology, it seems I would like to wait for next gen battery technology (various SSB's and some beefier Lithium ion ones that aren't as combustible and prone to dendritic growth). Heck, I'd go for one even without torque vectoring if it will save me $20-30k CAD.

I'm trying to push my current car as far as possible as you're with yours, but it's undeniable how much cars improved overall over the last 20 years... If my car suddenly broke down, I would be deciding between 3 cars. The most rational one, a Prius PHEV (Almost as economical as a BEV, spacious seats, but an acquired taste to be very gentle....), a GT86 (It's the emotional one... I simply love this car since it came out and drove one... But, It's far from a good choice when you're planning your wedding/starting a family...) or a IS300h F Sport (spacious, amazingly good looking, comfortable, incredibly well built and if well driven good on fuel economy as well). This also shows my price range (45~50k €), and I'm planing on replacing the Prius for the UX300e on my list. Let's see how it goes.

I believe we also have another similar problem, too much information... I mean, if I weren't as knowledgeable about the future releases from my passion on the automotive world I would be happily driving either of the 3 stated above, but I'm trying to wait for the "perfect" thing.

To be clear, we're not directly talking about battery capacity, but electrical consumption. Consumption increases significantly from below 2-3 C and worsens at -5 C and colder. In practical terms, this is from about 120 Wh/km in summer, to about 180 Wh/km in winter this year, despite a mild winter so far (most days near 0 C when driving). I hope Toyota has a trick up its sleeve to efficiently keep the cells at the optimal temp and minimize this increased consumption in cold weather which is a reality with all Li-BEV vehicles currently on the market today. Solid state cells is the near future to mitigate this issue...

I see you have a TM3 SR+ on your signature, so to provide heating for the cabin it has a "super bottle" and convencional heating which is a bit less efficient than what Toyota will offer (heat pump). But yes, energy consumption for cabin heating is a problem when outside temperature deeps bellow 0ºC... Even with a heat pump, there is only so much it can do, or to put it another way, a heat pump can only work until a certain set point...

Regarding SSB, as @ssun30 said in another thread, you always need to give up something with batteries (no holy grail) and a 1C charge/discharge rate is too low to have decent performance... It would need something else (super capacitors perhaps?) but everything would bump up the already steep price.

 

[spwolf]

It believe it’s because of range. The exact price of the ux bev is parallel to the mod 3. If that’s all the juice it can muster. UXe in the states better align more with the Leaf’s pricing. They can’t bring that range over here and expect Lexus buyers to buy it over a UX 200-300h. If it’s cheaper than a 200, it’s an expensive downgrade. If it’s pricier than a 300h, it’s a rip-off. It needs to be on par. I can’t imagine how a client service rep can vs. this against segment comp. lol

Why would UX be price aligned with Leaf? You expect it to be cheaper than 300h?

 

[internalaudit]

I'm trying to push my current car as far as possible as you're with yours, but it's undeniable how much cars improved overall over the last 20 years... If my car suddenly broke down, I would be deciding between 3 cars. The most rational one, a Prius PHEV (Almost as economical as a BEV, spacious seats, but an acquired taste to be very gentle....), a GT86 (It's the emotional one... I simply love this car since it came out and drove one... But, It's far from a good choice when you're planning your wedding/starting a family...) or a IS300h F Sport (spacious, amazingly good looking, comfortable, incredibly well built and if well driven good on fuel economy as well). This also shows my price range (45~50k €), and I'm planing on replacing the Prius for the UX300e on my list. Let's see how it goes.

I believe we also have another similar problem, too much information... I mean, if I weren't as knowledgeable about the future releases from my passion on the automotive world I would be happily driving either of the 3 stated above, but I'm trying to wait for the "perfect" thing.



I see you have a TM3 SR+ on your signature, so to provide heating for the cabin it has a "super bottle" and convencional heating which is a bit less efficient than what Toyota will offer (heat pump). But yes, energy consumption for cabin heating is a problem when outside temperature deeps bellow 0ºC... Even with a heat pump, there is only so much it can do, or to put it another way, a heat pump can only work until a certain set point...

Regarding SSB, as @ssun30 said in another thread, you always need to give up something with batteries (no holy grail) and a 1C charge/discharge rate is too low to have decent performance... It would need something else (super capacitors perhaps?) but everything would bump up the already steep price.

What do you think of this article showing higher charge rates?

Fast and Ultra-fast Chargers - Battery University

Learn about the good and bad of ultra-fast-charging

batteryuniversity.com

Also does that mean all SSB are made and act alike?

 

[mediumhot]

I don't know how American journliasts test cars, but in general the 0-100km/h times posted by the manufacturer and tested by the media are much slower in the rest of the world, even though the difference between 60mph and 100km/h is only 4%. As an example the Kona EV has an official 0-100km/h time of 7.8s while in the U.S. the tested 0-60mph time is 6.4s.

US spec gearing is tad bit more aggressive.

 

[ssun30]

What do you think of this article showing higher charge rates?

Also does that mean all SSB are made and act alike?

Current state-of-the-art lab SSBs couldn't even reach 1C, let alone 5-10C...

SSBs is just a general classification with lots of different types of chemistry and electrode construction.

To be clear, we're not directly talking about battery capacity, but electrical consumption. Consumption increases significantly from below 2-3 C and worsens at -5 C and colder. In practical terms, this is from about 120 Wh/km in summer, to about 180 Wh/km in winter this year, despite a mild winter so far (most days near 0 C when driving). I hope Toyota has a trick up its sleeve to efficiently keep the cells at the optimal temp and minimize this increased consumption in cold weather which is a reality with all Li-BEV vehicles currently on the market today. Solid state cells is the near future to mitigate this issue...

Motors and PCUs are actually more efficient at lower temperatures. Therefore the extra consumption comes from extra internal resistance in the battery cell and heating up the cabin. But I don't know a TM3 could perform this badly in winter. Doesn't it have pre-heat that keeps the battery warm while it's plugged into the home charger? Does the TM3 use a heat pump AC system?

There really isn't a lot of trick to keep cells warm in winter. You either have to use the energy from the battery itself or get it from the plug, in both cases you get more electric bill just like you can't avoid heating bill. Maybe someone can come up with a vacuum insulation structure like Thermos.

 

[Dreski]

Why would UX be price aligned with Leaf? You expect it to be cheaper than 300h?

Its a response to why it’s not coming to N.America. If the UXe never improves the 180+miles limit. Why in the world would anyone buy it at over an ICE UX200-300h’s. If they do sell in the US somehow with that abysmal range. My point is they better price it like a Leaf. Cus you can’t justify a UXe with crappy range but the price is the same as a model 3 and regular ice UX. Get it? It was late at night... my bad

 

[internalaudit]

Current state-of-the-art lab SSBs couldn't even reach 1C, let alone 5-10C...

SSBs is just a general classification with lots of different types of chemistry and electrode construction.

How do you know this, I know you work in the industry, but aren't there developments that don't have to be publicly announced? Or do scientists love to brag and tell it all?

Also, if maximum is 1C, didn't Will just mention ultracapacitors and other gimmicks to allow these batteries to discharge at a higher rate?

I don't care about slower charging if the range is much better than what is offered today but of course discharge/power is something I would be concerned about.

 

[ssun30]

How do you know this, I know you work in the industry, but aren't there developments that don't have to be publicly announced? Or do scientists love to brag and tell it all?

Yes the academia tend to brag and exaggerate their research when talking to the general media, because the public has a short memory. Fusion is always 50 years away, carbon nanotubes are the solution to all problems but just wait for another 10 years. The only thing they won't promise is when we can cure cancer. But within their own circle they tend to be very, very restrained and cautious about what they say. If you know the subject well and ask the right questions, they will give more realistic answers.

I attended the Materials Research Society conference last year and almost half of the seminars and talks are about batteries. And of course a LOT of groups are working on SSBs, and I got to talk with researchers funded by the likes of Toyota, GM, VW, NASA, and so on. Most of the focus right now is improving the durability of the cathode material - most tests are done at only 0.1C and the electrodes are still suffering from considerable degradation. And many groups are saying reaching 1C is not a short-term goal: they are developing SSBs more as energy storage instead of traction batteries. Li-air is even worse as no one has even come close to 0.01C and 100 cycles.

The unexpected difficulty in SSB development is the reason why so much funding is diverted to improving existing designs like NCM811. I've seen encouraging results that could improve their energy densities by up to 30%. So the good news is we likely won't see stagnation in current Li-ion chemistry and have to wait for a quantum leap when SSBs become viable. There will be interim solutions to bridge the gap.

If you ask me I would say super capacitors or similar high power-density energy storage systems are indeed necessary for high performance EVs using SSBs.

 

[internalaudit]

Yes the academia tend to brag and exaggerate their research when talking to the general media, because the public has a short memory. Fusion is always 50 years away, carbon nanotubes are the solution to all problems but just wait for another 10 years. The only thing they won't promise is when we can cure cancer. But within their own circle they tend to be very, very restrained and cautious about what they say. If you know the subject well and ask the right questions, they will give more realistic answers.

I attended the Materials Research Society conference last year and almost half of the seminars and talks are about batteries. And of course a LOT of groups are working on SSBs, and I got to talk with researchers funded by the likes of Toyota, GM, VW, NASA, and so on. Most of the focus right now is improving the durability of the cathode material - most tests are done at only 0.1C and the electrodes are still suffering from considerable degradation. And many groups are saying reaching 1C is not a short-term goal: they are developing SSBs more as energy storage instead of traction batteries. Li-air is even worse as no one has even come close to 0.01C and 100 cycles.

The unexpected difficulty in SSB development is the reason why so much funding is diverted to improving existing designs like NCM811. I've seen encouraging results that could improve their energy densities by up to 30%. So the good news is we likely won't see stagnation in current Li-ion chemistry and have to wait for a quantum leap when SSBs become viable. There will be interim solutions to bridge the gap.

If you ask me I would say super capacitors or similar high power-density energy storage systems are indeed necessary for high performance EVs using SSBs.

What do you think of Prologium's SSB?

ProLogium 輝能科技股份有限公司

www.youtube.com

 

[Will1991]

This well get a hard time to sell in Europe...

For Norway (only trim packages), a UX250h FWD goes from 417.200kr to 524.100kr, a UX250h AWD goes from 461.500kr to 628.100kr.... A Volvo XC40 Recharge (direct competition, AWD vs FWD, 300kW vs. 150kW, 75kWh vs. 54.3kWh usable energy, 150kW DC vs 50kW DC) will start at 499.900kr...

Pricing will be a lot sensitive for this one...