internalaudit

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@internalaudit , knowing how much Panasonic helped Tesla on their battery technology and knowing how much Toyota and Panasonic are... Just makes our UX300e seem a bit worse... : )

Even after battery technology, their engines, thermal management systems and controls are simply amazing.
Just imagine once Tesla dumps Panasonic and goes on it alone. Baseline driving range goes up a few notches for those who Partner with Panasonic. Though I read chemistry is on the aggressive side so maybe a no go for Toyota.
 

ssun30

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Regarding electric propulsion, they’re far ahead of everyone.
That's not true. Most EV solutions providers have roughly the same level of sophistication when it comes to the drive unit. The power output level all depends on client needs. In fact from a sustainability POV Toyota uses the least amount of REE. China could decide to go for a REE embargo against USA any day now, guess which EV maker suffers the most when that happens?

For example, battery energy density, UX300e has something around 160Wh/kg when a Tesla gets around 250Wh/kg.
~160Wh/kg is pack-level specific power. That is including the enclosure, wiring, TMS, and BMS. This is a very reasonable number for air-cooled NCM622 packs.

250Wh/kg is cell-level specific power. That's just the specific power a single cell. Tesla's packaging is quite efficient but they are still barely above 200Wh/kg.

Having the most energy dense chemistry does not suddenly mean 'more advanced'. Because every chemistry switch, from LTA to LFP, from LFP to NCM433, from NCM433 to 523, from 523 to 622, from 622 to 811, and now from 811 to 9.5.5 come at a risk for safety and durability. It's not a question of 'whether you can', it's 'whether you want'. There's a very good reason China's vast electric bus and taxicab fleet still use the 'outdated' LFP chemistry.

Panasonic/Tesla's chemistry advantage against their biggest competitors, CATL and LG Chem, is minimal at this point. It's roughly 6 months instead of 18-24 months like in 2016.

Remember there is no free lunch in the EV industry. Spec sheets don't tell the whole story. Every shiny data point on that piece of paper comes at a price, and I mean not only a monetary one. We are at a point that EV solutions are so homogeneous that competitiveness in product specs could only be gained by taking more risks.
 

Will1991

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Apparently this UX300e has a bigger boot than the UX250h, maybe 10cm more!

You can see it here:


-> In this one you can only see some of the wheel


-> In this one, you can see a bump with the seats down

Really looking forward!
 

flexus

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From 2020 bev incentives change in France. 6.000€ for cars priced till 45.000€. Half, so 3.000€, for cars priced above. And no incentive at all for bevs priced above 60.000€.

If a bev starts at 44k, and you add 2k in trim or options, you lose 3k in incentives.
UX250h is 36.990€ in France
 

Will1991

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When you realize just how busy they are, trying to justify everything about Tesla’s CyberTruck and trying to make it the best thing in the world you realize it’s acceptable, they simply had no time to spare, it was Lexus fault to make the announcement around the same time : )

Jokes aside, giving how well Prius Prime is selling in NA, RAV4 Prime will give TMY a good competition! Also, if they make a Camry Prime with the same powertrain... They will need to talk a lot about Toyota!


Don't ask me anything regarding what's being said, it's going to be a few hard months to wait for more information
 

flexus

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Cybertruk is example that Tesla is sinking. They are trying to make a hype but look at it it's years from production. I doubt it'll never hit dealers. I knew Tesla is over when they unveiled Model Y.
 

Levi

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The problem with the Tesla Y is that it brings nothing new, it is a Telsa 3 with more headroom, not more ground clearance. While EQC, e-Tron are not special, they are they at least look alright and have the same looks and functions as other CUVs/SUVs. The i-Pace is the best functional looking BEV, way better than the Mustang e-Mach, which is as ill-shaped as the Model Y.
In affordable BEVs, the i3 is still strange, the Leaf as ugly as ever, and the Zoe like a car for people that hate cars.
Only the Kona, Volvo/Polestar and now UX are fine, but again not in the same category as Tesla.
 

Ian Schmidt

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I like Alfa Romeo and so do many other enthusiasts. The only thing that holds them back is reliability.
Yeah, they got so much else right with the Giulia that's it's unfortunate that not only is Fiat/Alfa's general unreliability seeping over to Chrysler, but Chrysler's 20-year run of terrible electrical systems has migrated over to Fiat/Alfa.
 

Levi

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Alfa's mistake was making FWD cars when it became a trend, while BMW continued with RWD. Alfa even made regular sedans like the 33 and 75 with tranaxle!!! Only seen in the Maserati Quattroporte and Aston Martin Rapide sedans!!!
 

ssun30

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So the C-HR EV is the only product launched this year with a pack-level specific energy less than 140Wh/kg, putting them at the lowest subsidy bracket (80% multiplier). Even for 523 chemistry that is very, very low (this value actually approaches the higher end of the 433 chemistry).

At 13.1kWh/100km it qualifies for the maximum efficiency criteria subsidy (for a 1780kg car they need less than 13.2kWh/100km for 110% subsidy). So in this case using a heavier battery actually allowed them to have a higher efficiency subsidy score?

The Hyundai Encino (Kona) EV is at 13.8kWh/100km while the Honda X-NV is at 13.4kWh/100km, so the C-HR EV is currently the most efficient B-segment electric SUV. There are some indigenous brands with energy efficiency close to the C-HR EV.

For EVs with 400km range, the C-HR has the largest total capacity and lowest energy consumption, which means it has the lowest usable capacity ratio (i.e. more over-provisioning), as expected.

TM3 China uses CATL cells instead of sourcing from Panasonic.
 
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