Lexus UX 300e Megathread

[Ian Schmidt]

I don't disagree. The UX300e is very much a compliance vehicle, as ssun30 has stated. The fact that it's still pretty good in spite of that is mostly because of the basic goodness of the UX.

 

[Will1991]

I don't disagree. The UX300e is very much a compliance vehicle, as ssun30 has stated. The fact that it's still pretty good in spite of that is mostly because of the basic goodness of the UX.

But being a compliance car doesn't need to be a bad thing.

With good efficiency a 50kWh is more than enough for a lot of people, for me, it would cover around 90% of my needs with only home charging... We can check Leaf 40kWh and Ioniq 28kWh, it's a clear example battery capacity isn't everything.

Even if it is a compliance vehicle, it can be a proper car that happens to be BEV. At the beginning of each day you can feel Lexus quality, you can feel Lexus comfort, it will be properly built and have a real premium feel.

If correctly priced I'm buying one, despite not being in love for SUV's as a concept. But they shouldn't expect more has much money as people are paying for a TM3 SR+, it's more spacious, bigger, faster, better range, charges faster, RWD...

Even with this specs (50kWh battery, 50kW charging speed, 150kW engine), it's more than enough for millions of people looking to transition to a BEV, including me.

Yes, I do want a 600hp Electric Lexus Sedan with a 100kWh battery charging at 350kW to fight Taycan's and Model S's, but do I need one? Definitively not. Could I buy one? Sadly no, but hopefully Toyota will keep affordability has they managed with first gen Prius, hopefully Toyota will pursue affordability for a wider audience.

 

[internalaudit]

A 300 HP, 70 kWh battery (10 years/150,000 miles battery warranty) AWD sedan (okay even a CUV lol) with some form of rear axle torque vectoring is good enough for me and like many others, I'd be willing to finance it new.

That IS or NX will easily compete with the Tesla 3 and Y in terms of value proposition (higher reliability, better interior, less outspoken CEO, better handling dynamics thanks to TVD or something to that effect).

It won't go 0-60 in 2.8 seconds (I'm not an idiot motorist), it won't have the SCN (charging at home is cheapest) or as fast a charging (but that leads to battery deterioration) but I don't need those in a modern vehicle anyway.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

It won't go 0-60 in 2.8 seconds (I'm not an idiot motorist), it won't have the SCN (charging at home is cheapest) or as fast a charging (but that leads to battery deterioration) but I don't need those in a modern vehicle anyway.

Yeah, I feel like that's the problem with the Model 3: they could've spent the money on the interior and torque vectoring rather than sub-5-second 0-60 and it would've been a much better car for the majority of drivers. As-is it's kind of unpleasant to sit in but goes really fast.

 

[internalaudit]

I did put in the $1k deposit and watched the TM3 unveiling. The problem with Tesla (now that its founders have left), is it doesn't seem to want to listen to some great customer feedback, considering it's so proud of its OTA updates (positives and negatives) when it could incrementally be improving its offerings before the media goes overboard on some of the real issues (bad rear seat ergonomics was fixed quickly, MCU prone to malfunctioning/bricking, premature rusting).

I guess the fanboys have just resulted in Tesla management getting full of hubris that they don't know (or anticipate) customers deflecting once they find post-warranty repairs to be obnoxiously expensive. Even the early Model S (2012 MY) units still have some battery and DU warranty left so I can't wait to hear the verdict on quality and cost of ownership. I think many of the fanboys actually invested a lot in TSLA stocks and so far they're doing great. I have not seen any group as feisty as this when it comes to defending the brand to the best of their abilities.

Majority were complaining the interior was tacky and bad yet Tesla still pushed through with that minimalistic design. Definitely a cost-cutting move which we see on the Mach-E as well as VW ID3 but even the latter two have better looking interiors. Post an issue on Tesla Motor Club and you will often be called a liar or a FUDster.

Torque vectoring is a natural for BEVs (because they're so heavy and because of instant torque that makes reaction time much faster) and I wouldn't be buying a BEV without it, unless of course they're dirt cheap, comes with AWD, reliable enough and are longer ranged (below $45k CAD) but what are the chances of that happening lol? Might as well up my budget and get a better all-around BEV that covers 95% of my household's needs. The wait continues... lol.

 

[Will1991]

@internalaudit , I was also looking forward the TM3, but when you say they fixed seating ergonomics I would say they improved, it still is a long way from being fixed in my opinion. An IS has a lot better seating ergonomics than the Tesla. Even for the front passengers I found it a bit off somehow... This is one of the main reasons I forget about getting a TM3.

 

[Will1991]

Let's get some real pictures around here:

Also, according to Next Mobility (https://www.nextmobility.jp/car_sales/lexus-unveils-the-worlds-first-ev-ux300e-in-china20191122/ and Google Translate), it is said to have 4 stage regenerative braking.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I did put in the $1k deposit and watched the TM3 unveiling. The problem with Tesla (now that its founders have left), is it doesn't seem to want to listen to some great customer feedback, considering it's so proud of its OTA updates (positives and negatives) when it could incrementally be improving its offerings before the media goes overboard on some of the real issues (bad rear seat ergonomics was fixed quickly, MCU prone to malfunctioning/bricking, premature rusting).

The original founders IMO had a better grasp on what their strong points were (and more importantly weren't). The decision to convert Lotus Elises originated from them, for instance.

 

[spwolf]

It's just a pure conjecture on my part but I think the UX300e will have a much lower demand if it's price just $5k below the Tesla Model 3 Short Range Plus here in Canada ($55k CAD). That base model will be priced like the most expensive trim Niro and Kona BEVs and about $8k more than the base UX250h.

Cargo area is small compared to the Q3 or other German offerings. I don't think the UX300e comes with AWD either ( though I may be wrong).

based on that, nobody would buy UX ever, because it is more expensive than Kona and it has less trunk than Q3.

We obviously do not know what UX300e pricing will be right now, if pricing is not good then it wont sell, as simple as that.
When it comes to competition to Model 3 - again, completely different vehicles. Just like regular vehicles, EVs will start being bought based on other features than "it has to be EV". So UX should never sell anything because it does not make much sense compared to larger sedans at same price for instance. Model Y should be significantly higher priced than UX.

 

[internalaudit]

based on that, nobody would buy UX ever, because it is more expensive than Kona and it has less trunk than Q3.

We obviously do not know what UX300e pricing will be right now, if pricing is not good then it wont sell, as simple as that.
When it comes to competition to Model 3 - again, completely different vehicles. Just like regular vehicles, EVs will start being bought based on other features than "it has to be EV". So UX should never sell anything because it does not make much sense compared to larger sedans at same price for instance. Model Y should be significantly higher priced than UX.

All I'm saying is people buy CUV's for the ride height, the cargo space, ground clearance and roominess. The Model 3 won't have the first three. Had they made it a hatchback like the S, it would probably sell more.

Why wouldn't people buy the UX over the Niro or Kona when it comes with LSS+ 2.0 as standard if priced similarly? I look at the base UX250h here in Canada and except for electronic lift gate (good to have but not a must), I'm good with the base model. I would choose a UX over a Kona or Niro because those are compliance cars and hard to find and because I still prefer Toyota and Honda over the Korean makes.

I think it's safe to say at least in North America that more people buy Lexus/Toyota while more people lease German/Euro makes.

Leasing will almost always cost more in the long run compared to purchasing the same vehicle and driving it to the ground.

As long as there is no competition from Honda or Nissan (Ariya coming with four-wheel control), I think the UX will sell well. It just doesn't meet my lofty requirements of longer driving distance and AWD with torque vectoring. But that doesn't mean it won't meet other loyal Lexus fans' household requirements but this is the first attempt by Toyota so the next iterations will likely be better.

I've got ICEVs to drive into the ground so I can patiently wait for Lexus and Acura to come up with compelling BEVs that are not stratospherically-priced. I think I'm good with up to $80k CAD but I will take one for $60-79k any day. I'm just being realistic that for the next decade, BEVs will carry some premium over ICEV variants because of the value propositions

 

[Will1991]

I believe we’re all around the same metric.

If equally priced to Kona BEV, it can sell due to improved build quality and material choice even with considerable less range and slower charging speeds.

If equally priced to TM3 SR+, it will be a lot harder to sell but still, maybe possible to do for hadcore fans.

If equally priced to TMY they’re simply mad and completely lost their mind.

 

[CRSKTN]

Aside from road trips, what sort of commute do you people have that we're talking about needing to go over 3 or 400 km on a single charge?

 

[spwolf]

All I'm saying is people buy CUV's for the ride height, the cargo space, ground clearance and roominess.

They buy Lexus UX for style, build and Lexus quality. Nobody ever bought it for ride height, cargo space, ground clearance or roominess

Now me and you might not like UX for that, but we are not buying it. People who are value other things than us.

 

[internalaudit]

They buy Lexus UX for style, build and Lexus quality. Nobody ever bought it for ride height, cargo space, ground clearance or roominess

Now me and you might not like UX for that, but we are not buying it. People who are value other things than us.

The interior of the UX looks good, even with hard plastic galore that leads to senseless complaints. It is the cheapest Lexus so you have a good point.

I don't like the style except for the rear-end lol. The front portion is just too long.

 

[spwolf]

Aside from road trips, what sort of commute do you people have that we're talking about needing to go over 3 or 400 km on a single charge?

especially for a small car like UX.

Rav4 or Lexus ES are another stories.

But thing is, people who are looking at EV right now are fans of the tech, so for them tech is more important than rest of the vehicle. For that customer, nothing but Tesla will do it... and Toyota, Lexus and others need to their regular customers to buy their EVs.

 

[internalaudit]

What Tesla tech? So far impressive 0-60, best driving range in the business, SCN and OTA updates, if we consider the benefits and ignore the dangers.

I'm not sold on a Tesla if reliability isn't there (big investment for most of us, except for those who are millionaires and billionaires) and I'm sure many customers will start complaining about costs after the warranty ends. Would be interesting to note how good the torque vectoring will be when those three electric motors on higher-end Tesla's come out. Past suspension and chassis designs, computers/electronics that improve driving dynamics will come to fore especially on BEVs with instant torque and speedy acceleration. We will find out if Tesla really does have the best technology (software) in the business. I think Rimac does offer better technology but those cost more than my house lol.

It's hard for Tesla since it now has the burden to show its cars are on the cutting edge (leader) so it has to beat the Taycan in 0-60, has to impress with charging speed and all of that stuff (and likely at the expense of battery life -- decreasing buffer secretly or drive unit life) but eventually most mass market buyers like me won't care about these advantages enough.

I just want a good looking (inside and out) >6 seconds, 325 mile AWD BEV with good torque vectoring (not all are made the same), ACC, heated steering wheel, seats and maybe a heat pump.

If car manufacturers don't see that BEV is the ticket to moderately priced and good performing cars, they can stick to ICEV and see how that ends.

 

[Will1991]

@internalaudit , Tesla is far ahead of everyone regarding electric engine efficiency, engine power, battery energy density, etc...

Regarding electric propulsion, they’re far ahead of everyone.

For example, battery energy density, UX300e has something around 160Wh/kg when a Tesla gets around 250Wh/kg.

 

[internalaudit]

@internalaudit , Tesla is far ahead of everyone regarding electric engine efficiency, engine power, battery energy density, etc...

Regarding electric propulsion, they’re far ahead of everyone.

For example, battery energy density, UX300e has something around 160Wh/kg when a Tesla gets around 250Wh/kg.

I see what you mean. Would you know if Panasonic owns the battery technology? So many OEM's like BorgWarner, GNK, Continental, etc. are building integrated drive trains / motor units. I think I read even Porsche source its electric motors for the Taycan from Rimac. I'm beginning to think the main differentiating factor would be how the car handles (suspension, chassis, and other more advance safety nannies that you can read from the Porsche news article).

High driving stability even in the rain

The eighth generation of the Porsche 911 is not just more powerful than its predecessor, but is also more comfortable and safer. With Porsche Wet Mode, the sports car offers even better handling on wet roads – a world first introduced exclusively for the 911.

newsroom.porsche.com

I've been beaten down (and butt heads) on some EV forums when I share this article

This could be the next gold mine for Tesla and other electric vehicles

Charging stations will outnumber gas stations, writes Vitaliy Katsenelson.

www.marketwatch.com

The battery is a key technology for Tesla, but at the moment Panasonic is in control of a big part of it. Just as Apple chose to bring development of the CPU that powers its iPhone in-house, Tesla, which is vertically integrated, may eventually increase its control over its battery technology. The company’s purchase of Maxwell Technologies, which has a battery technology that may significantly lower the cost of cell manufacturing, is the first move toward independence from Panasonic.

On the one hand, this strategy has a great appeal because if Tesla is able to produce a better (more durable, lighter, longer-range, faster-charging) battery at a lower cost, it could become a source of a competitive advantage. Today Tesla doesn’t fully control its destiny when it comes to batteries, so if BMW BMW, +1.26% decides to use Panasonic’s cells, Panasonic will gladly supply it. BMW would still have to develop its own battery management controller, though

 

[spwolf]

yes, long range, fast charging network, fast acceleration, auto-pilot. As @Will1991 mentioned, their tech is better and also cheaper as they have it integrated far more.

For early adaptors, end quality is less important - for them quality is in acceleration, fast charging and novelty factor of auto pilot.

 

[Will1991]

@internalaudit , knowing how much Panasonic helped Tesla on their battery technology and knowing how much Toyota and Panasonic are... Just makes our UX300e seem a bit worse... : )

Even after battery technology, their engines, thermal management systems and controls are simply amazing.