internalaudit
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Also FWD. Could it be UX250h pricing plus $7.5k Euros?
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Will1991
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For Portugal UX prices are:
-Business, 42.5k €
-Executive +, 46.9k €
-Premium/FSport, 50k €
-Luxury/FSport+, 60k€
Tesla Model 3:
-SR+, 49k €
-LR, 59k €
-P, 65k €
Tesla Model Y:
-LR RWD, 59k €
-LR AWD, 63k €
-P, 71k €
But we can't forget TMY (LR+RWD) has a 540km WLTP range and a TM3 SR+ has a 409km WLTP range, not NEDC (it's a bit better), so Lexus really needs to get pricing just right. Both of them are bigger, faster, more powerfull, charge faster.
Also, EQC starts at 78k € (450km NEDC, bigger car, more power), a 64kWh Kona is around 45k € (about the same interior size, a lot more range 546km NEDC or 449km WLTP) and a MX-30 will start around 35k € (around 200km WLTP).
Pricing will not be easy because they need to sell them in good numbers to get average CO2 down and avoid fines. If they price it for Hybrid + 7.5k €, maybe they will hard to sell...
EDIT: VW ID.3 1st will also start bellow 39k € and ID.3 Plus 1st will start bellow 45k €, yes it's a hatchback and non-premium brand, but has a 409 WLTP range.... And specially the Plus version, it's very well specced.
-Business, 42.5k €
-Executive +, 46.9k €
-Premium/FSport, 50k €
-Luxury/FSport+, 60k€
Tesla Model 3:
-SR+, 49k €
-LR, 59k €
-P, 65k €
Tesla Model Y:
-LR RWD, 59k €
-LR AWD, 63k €
-P, 71k €
But we can't forget TMY (LR+RWD) has a 540km WLTP range and a TM3 SR+ has a 409km WLTP range, not NEDC (it's a bit better), so Lexus really needs to get pricing just right. Both of them are bigger, faster, more powerfull, charge faster.
Also, EQC starts at 78k € (450km NEDC, bigger car, more power), a 64kWh Kona is around 45k € (about the same interior size, a lot more range 546km NEDC or 449km WLTP) and a MX-30 will start around 35k € (around 200km WLTP).
Pricing will not be easy because they need to sell them in good numbers to get average CO2 down and avoid fines. If they price it for Hybrid + 7.5k €, maybe they will hard to sell...
EDIT: VW ID.3 1st will also start bellow 39k € and ID.3 Plus 1st will start bellow 45k €, yes it's a hatchback and non-premium brand, but has a 409 WLTP range.... And specially the Plus version, it's very well specced.
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internalaudit
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No wonder they target Europe. Prices there are much more expensive than here in North America.
Most car MSRP in Canada is like 15-20% less than MSRP in the US, if we factor in the exchange rate. Canadians are less affluent than our American counterparts (they do get deeper discounts off MSRP) and it shows in MSRP pricing. I definitely can't complain.
Only Tesla makes its cars more expensive in Canada.
Most car MSRP in Canada is like 15-20% less than MSRP in the US, if we factor in the exchange rate. Canadians are less affluent than our American counterparts (they do get deeper discounts off MSRP) and it shows in MSRP pricing. I definitely can't complain.
Only Tesla makes its cars more expensive in Canada.
In ChDM they could charge a really high premium to the point the UX300e can be profitable. BBA do not have a direct competitor to it. Its only valid competition is the Volvo XC40 EV with a much larger battery but only slightly longer range, but twice the power. But Volvo is having a hard time selling its products despite of good value so the UX300e is likely to have little resistance in ChDM.
Why sell a product at $35k when you can sell it at almost $60k in a different market?
Why sell a product at $35k when you can sell it at almost $60k in a different market?
internalaudit
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Precisely. That's what I just said lol.
Good things come to those who can wait. These are consumer goods anyway that will depreciate over time. Might as well get one that ticks majority of one's needs/wants.
Good things come to those who can wait. These are consumer goods anyway that will depreciate over time. Might as well get one that ticks majority of one's needs/wants.
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Lexus has debuted the UX 300e in China today, the brand’s first pure-electric vehicle. Available only in Europe, China, and Japan, the UXe gets 400km per charge and multiple powertrain modes. The full press release follows.
The first EV from Lexus embodies the refined driving performance and NVH of the brand’s DNA
Legendary Lexus reliability inherited from hybrid electrification technology heritage
Featuring the distinctive design and high functionality of the original UX
Lexus will introduce its first battery electric vehicle (BEV), the UX 300e, at the Guangzhou International Automobile Exhibition, which will be held in Guangzhou, China, from November 22 to December 1, 2019.
Since introducing the RX 400h in 2005, LEXUS has been a pioneer in vehicle electrification technology, playing a leading role in...
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internalaudit
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Nice. Lexus/Toyota may want to play the waiting game and see how this unfolds? I definitely think higher-end (at least >$70k and up CAD) Lexus BEVs will do wonderfully.
Porsche Is Going All In on Electric, but 911 Will Be Last to Switch
www.bnnbloomberg.ca
Porsche Is Going All In on Electric, but 911 Will Be Last to Switch
BNN Bloomberg – Canada Business News, TSX Today and Interest Rates
Get the latest Canadian business news, TSX updates, interest rates and Bank of Canada coverage. Explore stock market investing and get expert financial insights on investment portfolio strategies.
I am surprised at the pricing... it is actually fine.
ID.3 is econobox and so is Kona. They should not be priced so close.
@ssun30 how does this look to you? Whats efficiency like?
meth.ix
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I like the fact that Lexus is electrifying its current lineup instead of making all-new EV models, which I always found stupid since it just creates overlap with other models. Other manufacturers also always feel the need to make their EVs designed in a very polarizing manner, just so they can be "differentiated" from regular ICE cars, which I am happy Lexus is not doing.
Prices are more expensive because we pay customs and taxes, and they are calculated in the price you see online... roughly 30%-35% at minimum for average EU country.
it is obvious both UX and Rav4 had platform and design that was made to fit EV/PHEV ahead of the time... that is why there is no difference in space despite all the additional hardware.
internalaudit
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I see. So sounds about the same price (maybe only 10% more) as in Canada.
TMC is late, but somehow I feel like this «compliance car» (UX 300e) will wipe all other «genuine BEVs». The i3 is too experimental and short range, the Zoe and Leaf are really budget cars, but the Germans are trying to be «Tesla killers», a lost plot, like Infiniti trying to be German status badge.
Volvo tries to brand itself as electric but is not yet there, and Hyundai/Kia still have no clear brand identity.
I think many want a bev that looks like ice, but has good normal specs. Many would buy an electric Golf if it had better range, I am less sure about the ID3 (at least it is VW first rwd car).
And except Tesla, bevs are still too experimental for mass market.
The UX just hits all the right points. It is fwd, but so are all cuvs.
Volvo tries to brand itself as electric but is not yet there, and Hyundai/Kia still have no clear brand identity.
I think many want a bev that looks like ice, but has good normal specs. Many would buy an electric Golf if it had better range, I am less sure about the ID3 (at least it is VW first rwd car).
And except Tesla, bevs are still too experimental for mass market.
The UX just hits all the right points. It is fwd, but so are all cuvs.
CT200h
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A careful examination of the battery pictures reveals that the battery is air cooled. In the pictures you can see the blower motor fan and air ducting to the pack and back. Thus type of system uses the hvac system to push cooled or warmed air Through the battery. It’s not quite as effective as liquid cooling but does work. Kia Soul and I think Hyundai ionq use similar systems .
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Exactly, I don't really like the UX300e (and the C-HR EV it is based on) because it is an unapologetic compliance car. How do I guess the specs with such precision? Because I know Toyota wants to build the bare minimum BEV to qualify for China's renewed EV incentives: 400km range and 160Wh/kg pack-level specific energy. They want to do this because BEVs are guaranteed to lose money, so the less ambitious the less money they lose. Toyota isn't even trying to hide its intentions with this car.
The UX300e is in a unique position that it is exactly average. Its competitors are either aiming too low (like the Audi Q2L EV) or too high (like the EQC/iX3/E-Tron/XC40 EV). A 55kWh, 150kW, 400km range subcompact SUV is the average for all BEVs available in 2020, and that's what people are buying. Almost every mainstream carmaker has launched an 'average BEV' in China this year except for the luxury brands.
BBA made a mistake by trying to match Tesla but without the know-how to do that. Therefore they had to build very ambitious and expensive cars with mediocre results. In Chinese we have a proverb 'don't add too much water to flour but then add too much flour to water (when making a dough)' for this kind of situation: since they couldn't match Tesla's efficiency and energy density, they had to add more batteries to increase the range; but doing so makes the car heavier and thus even less efficient, forcing them to add even more batteries and the cycle goes on. The end results are three very heavy and expensive vehicles with laughable range.
All specs of this car are boringly average.
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The pack consists of 11 modules in series, 5 in the floor and 3x2 beneath the seats. This is actually a very common layout seen on ICEV-derived BEVs. Each module has 8x3=24 cells for a total of 264 cells. The total voltage is 8x11x3.7=326V. Capacity of each individual cell is 56Ah. The BMS and charging hardware are integrated into the pack. The pack does not extend over the rear axle so there's space to integrate a tiny 5kW motor into the differential for limited-AWD (like the UX250h). The overall layout of the pack has an average packaging efficiency and is significantly lower than the Tesla-style 'skateboard' layout, like the GAC Aion S (also sold as Toyota iA5) shown below. The pack is fully integrated into the floor, occupying less space and has a larger capacity of 59.4kWh.
The Aion S uses a 'three-in-one' drivetrain, in which the motor, direct-drive transmission, and PCU are combined into a single unit for much better packaging. The unit is sourced from Nidec (from Japan) called 'E-Axle' which makes 150kW and 300N.m. A similar concept is used in high-end EVs like the TM3 and Porsche Taycan. Toyota/Denso has two variants (FWD/RWD) in the works powering future E-TNGA vehicles. I'm surprised to see Denso didn't deliver its own three-in-one unit in time for the C-HR/UX, despite being more experienced with EV motors than Nidec.
The UX300e, like many average BEV in the market, still uses a split PCU from the motor/transmission unit. This is significantly bulkier, therefore the engine bay could not function as extra cargo space like in TM3.
Overall unlike in their hybrids and PHVs, Toyota didn't take any risk here, going for traditional engineering solutions with very little innovation. Maybe it has 'Lexus reliability' but only time can tell. To me this is a very boring product but maybe it's one that many people really want.
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internalaudit
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Sounds like a decent start and proves Toyota needs little catching up.
Most of us are rooting for Toyota (reliability and excellent performance in many Lexus) but the BEV landscape could change reliability rankings considerably and widen the gap between the Germans and Lexus.
Slowly but surely can definitely backfire.
High voltage systems could also result in fewer electric gremlins that plague many German makes.
Glad I can wait half a decade and wait for developments to unfold.
Most of us are rooting for Toyota (reliability and excellent performance in many Lexus) but the BEV landscape could change reliability rankings considerably and widen the gap between the Germans and Lexus.
Slowly but surely can definitely backfire.
High voltage systems could also result in fewer electric gremlins that plague many German makes.
Glad I can wait half a decade and wait for developments to unfold.
P.s. Toyota already had lowest co2 in Europe, and they will meet targets ahead of the time.
This is not really a compliance car, just a regular car that has EV power train.
And that's why it wins, together with reasonable pricing where the incentives are.
Joe
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The announced 400km range of the UX is given in NEDC, whereas best market performers in the compact cross-over segment (Hyundai Kona EV, Kia e-Niro and Kia e- Soul) achieve 450 kms in WLTP. I guess the UX in WLTP will get max. 350 kms.
This is a serious disappointment to me, especially combined with an estimated price level of 50k €.
Also the onboard charging capacity is very low.
Lexus is too much of a late follower, but should be in the forefront of electrification if it still wants to try to achieve something in Europe.
Manufacturer EV range quotes are for reference only. Some overpromise while some underpromise. Lexus is giving a very conservative estimate here. We'll have to see real world tests to judge the true range.
The Kona EV (Niro is basically the same thing) is an exception not a rule in this segment. It has a very impressive spec sheet. But somehow it doesn't translate into good sales figures (I guess exploding in a garage didn't help with its reputation). But anyway I see this as a very weird comparison. People will never cross-shop a UX300 with a Kona.
The charging speed is indeed a disappointment.