Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[mikeavelli]

Performance is just as directly tied to weight as it is horsepower, so it definitely does matter especially when most Lexus vehicles are underpowered and some are badly overweight. Does the RX owner care about weight? Nope. Does the LC, LS or IS shopper care about weight? Maybe not WEIGHT per se, but they feel and care about acceleration and performance, and weight is the anchor that will sink that ship faster than anything.

The LS crossing 5,000 lbs when it only has a tad north of 400hp is a problem: the car is slow off the line, the engine works harder to move the car, and it definitely sounds like a V6 while doing it. The S560 with a V8 and AWD weighs 4,800 lbs. The S65 AMG weighs under 5k lbs and the BMW M760iL xDrive weighs a hair over 5k. The BMW 740i weighs almost a thousand pounds less than the LS 500, and both have 6 cylinder engines. So the LS needs an extra ~90hp to keep pace with the BMW because of it.

IS has the advantage of being built on the older "New N" platform, so it could come in at or under 4k lbs once the IS 500 or IS F comes to fruition. That would be killer, and will make the car fast and fun to drive like an M3 but with different power delivery.

Rumors have a potential LS F weighing 5,500 - 5,700 lbs. That is as much as a freaking Land Cruiser, and it means the LS will be dealing with an extra ~600lbs compared to the S65/63 and M760Li. That's going to hurt the LS F just as much as it has hurt the LS 500.

So yeah... weight matters, especially for performance vehicles. But Lexus has the double whammy of having cars that are overweight and generally underpowered. Furthermore, without turbos and a better AWD system, Lexus vehicles lack the off-the-line traction as well as low- to mid-range punch from turbos.

... but what will it cost if they add AWD to the LS F? Another 200 lbs? Let's just round up to 6,000 lbs so owners have to file for a oversize/overweight permit when they purchase! 😭 😂

Sorry let me clarify. For performance of course weight matters. For a true purist, weight matters. For consumers, most don’t give a crap. Thus we have a bunch of huge, heavy cars and SUVs. No one I know with a S63 or 750/60 talks about weight. They talk about power and prestige and my leather is made from cows who drink Dom P.

We have been Lexus enthusiasts for a long time. There was a time they were relatively light or lighter than the competition. That ended when platforms started to be shared. A LC based off a LS will always weigh a ton. A LC with its own platform would be much lighter.

So that leaves power and we all know Lexus IS behind here in most cases. So hopefully it’s being worked on.

I just think we think differently than most consumers and my age tells me the more I know, the less I know lol.

 

[ssun30]

What Gecko was saying is that people don't care about weight per se, but they care about the side effect of a car being heavy: slower acceleration, worse fuel economy, less tech. It's better to buy a car that's just as heavy, but has more power and features.

Lexus could not add more power to a product because they hit a weight wall. More power means heavier drivetrain components, that's why performance models are often so much heavier compared to base model. When the chassis is too heavy, it quickly becomes the 'too much water then too much flour' scenario.

Cars are designed with a certain weight 'budget'. This is usually determined by management based on their CAFE target. They don't want certain product to be too heavy because it may impact the amount of high profit but gas-guzzling products they could produce. This is the reason why luxury car makers don't plate the whole car with gold. The engineers have a wishlist of features and tech they want to add until they hit the cap. So you see, the problem with a heavy platform is that they very quickly run out of weight budget so the product is compromised. An example would be the LS-F may not have AWD because the RWD version is already too heavy.

So for the BMW 7-series. Say the weight cap on the car is 2300 kg, and having a heavy V12 twin-turbo with AWD, plus a whole list of advanced tech will cost them ~400 kg added onto the base model. So they ended up making a base 740Li that weighs only 1900kg. This means BMW engineers have 200kg of extra weight to play with compared to a Lexus engineers that start with a 2100kg base to build on. Lexus engineers run out very quickly because they also tend to dedicate more weight to NVH.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

What Gecko was saying is that people don't care about weight per se, but they care about the side effect of a car being heavy: slower acceleration, worse fuel economy, less tech. It's better to buy a car that's just as heavy, but has more power and features.

Lexus could not add more power to a product because they hit a weight wall. More power means heavier drivetrain components, that's why performance models are often so much heavier compared to base model. When the chassis is too heavy, it quickly becomes the 'too much water then too much flour' scenario.

Cars are designed with a certain weight 'budget'. This is usually determined by management based on their CAFE target. They don't want certain product to be too heavy because it may impact the amount of high profit but gas-guzzling products they could produce. This is the reason why luxury car makers don't plate the whole car with gold. The engineers have a wishlist of features and tech they want to add until they hit the cap. So you see, the problem with a heavy platform is that they very quickly run out of weight budget so the product is compromised. An example would be the LS-F may not have AWD because the RWD version is already too heavy.

So for the BMW 7-series. Say the weight cap on the car is 2300 kg, and having a heavy V12 twin-turbo with AWD, plus a whole list of advanced tech will cost them ~400 kg added onto the base model. So they ended up making a base 740Li that weighs only 1900kg. This means BMW engineers have 200kg of extra weight to play with compared to a Lexus engineers that start with a 2100kg base to build on. Lexus engineers run out very quickly because they also tend to dedicate more weight to NVH.

This is such an important answer. I would also add that if the TNGA-N/L platform weren't poorly packaged then you could forgive some of the weight increases as well. Other than rigidity which helps with the car's handling when driving, and the way the car feels overall, their new platforms give basically no advantages at all.

 

[mikeavelli]

Just a reminder that BMW built a pretty low weight i8 at a remarkable 3300 lbs or so for a tidy 4 seater and no one cared. All you heard was the engine was low on power and it wasn’t fast.

This is such an important answer. I would also add that if the TNGA-N/L platform weren't poorly packaged then you could forgive some of the weight increases as well. Other than rigidity which helps with the car's handling when driving, and the way the car feels overall, their new platforms give basically no advantages at all.

The biggest advantage to an OEM. Shared costs and lower cost. The first time we really saw this was the FM Platform Nissan used on everything. The M35/45 etc used it but also the Z. The Z got the weight penalty. Didn’t matter they all sold well. Even the FX used it . The VQ was in them all.

It’s expensive to lose weight too. And with safety standards continuing to increase, I just don’t see weight being a big deal to consumers. Would I like lower weight? Hell yes. That includes me lol

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Just a reminder that BMW built a pretty low weight i8 at a remarkable 3300 lbs or so for a tidy 4 seater and no one cared. All you heard was the engine was low on power and it wasn’t fast.



The biggest advantage to an OEM. Shared costs and lower cost. The first time we really saw this was the FM Platform Nissan used on everything. The M35/45 etc used it but also the Z. The Z got the weight penalty. Didn’t matter they all sold well. Even the FX used it . The VQ was in them all.

It’s expensive to lose weight too. And with safety standards continuing to increase, I just don’t see weight being a big deal to consumers. Would I like lower weight? Hell yes. That includes me lol

You're comparing a small weight increase from the Nissan/Infiniti products to cars that weigh as heavy as a Bugatti Veyron, which weighs as heavy as a city.

 

[Will1991]

I do agree with @Gecko when he says the improvements made by Lexus regarding weight don't make the desired impact, but I also agree with @mikeavelli when he says for the general public weight don't make so much of a difference for the general consumer... Just look at Lotus, they're the epitome of shedding weight and they keep getting tremendous problems to sell cars...

Yes, GS F was tremendously underpowered against the competition, but the RC F wasn’t… Even with the added weight it made a decent competition to the more established M3/M4’s, but it was let down by the gearbox… Lexus decided to go against the dual clutch with launch control transmissions with a torque converter without launch control… One of the most important measures for Youtube is 0-60 and drag racing, and this gearbox was a major letdown next to the competition in this aspect.

Because on the move, making lap times, RC F was close to M3’s, so does the IS F was with a even worse gearbox.

 

[mikeavelli]

You're comparing a small weight increase from the Nissan/Infiniti products to cars that weigh as heavy as a Bugatti Veyron, which weighs as heavy as a city.

I am just bringing General conversation to the weight topic. Not comparing anything.

Unless there is some low weight break through, mass market cars will get heavier. Don’t misconstrue my thoughts, I am all for lighter cars!

 

[meth.ix]

I hope Lexus is developing a DCT for the new F cars. Even back in 2012 the transmission in the LFA was one of the most significant limiting factors of its performance.

 

[Levi]

BMW makes more DCT for their M cars, and no one seems to complain.

 

[Will1991]

It seems National Dealer Advisory Council Chairman John Iacono confirmed some rumors, here is some remarks (I can't see the original article):

• "We've had SUVs that we've been asking for that we have gotten the thumbs up on, and they recently showed us some coming products that I really can't expand on, but that we are very, very enthusiastic about,"
• A "true three-row people mover,"
• An improved LSis also on the way. "Not too many people really understand where we're going with the LS, which will be a true benchmark for the brand," he said.
  • I think @Gecko predicted this one
• Iacono confirms the rumor that Lexus is working on a rugged off-road vehicle. It will be a low-volume, halo model for the brand that will be vastly different from what people will expect from a Lexus. An earlier report says that the SUV is has a body-on-frame chassis, but there's not much other info available yet.
• The premium brand is getting an EV, too. "I personally with other Lexus dealers have gotten a glimpse of what that might look like when — not if, when — it comes to Lexus, and I believe that it has put a smile on our face, that we're going to have a player in a market," Iacono said
• One of Lexus' weak points has been its touchpad-controlled infotainment system. This is finally changing, too. "The telematics that are coming our way are going to be industry leading and they're going to be what we currently do not have,"

Source: Lexus Dealers Say New 3-Row Crossover, Off-Road SUV, And EV Are Coming (motor1.com)

2021~2021 certainly will be experience amazing years!

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

It seems National Dealer Advisory Council Chairman John Iacono confirmed some rumors, here is some remarks (I can't see the original article):

• "We've had SUVs that we've been asking for that we have gotten the thumbs up on, and they recently showed us some coming products that I really can't expand on, but that we are very, very enthusiastic about,"
• A "true three-row people mover,"
• An improved LSis also on the way. "Not too many people really understand where we're going with the LS, which will be a true benchmark for the brand," he said.
  • I think @Gecko predicted this one
• Iacono confirms the rumor that Lexus is working on a rugged off-road vehicle. It will be a low-volume, halo model for the brand that will be vastly different from what people will expect from a Lexus. An earlier report says that the SUV is has a body-on-frame chassis, but there's not much other info available yet.
• The premium brand is getting an EV, too. "I personally with other Lexus dealers have gotten a glimpse of what that might look like when — not if, when — it comes to Lexus, and I believe that it has put a smile on our face, that we're going to have a player in a market," Iacono said
• One of Lexus' weak points has been its touchpad-controlled infotainment system. This is finally changing, too. "The telematics that are coming our way are going to be industry leading and they're going to be what we currently do not have,"

Source: Lexus Dealers Say New 3-Row Crossover, Off-Road SUV, And EV Are Coming (motor1.com)

2021~2021 certainly will be experience amazing years!

Thank f*ck. Hell has finally frozen over. Hallelujah.

 

[Gecko]

Thank god!

Regarding LS, I kinda speculated and Ian Schmidt sorta confirmed... so I have to give credit where it's due 🙂

 

[CRSKTN]

Lexus NX News and Reviews | Motor1.com

Get the latest on new Lexus NX models including first drives, in-depth reviews, concept car photos, new features, recalls and more.

www.motor1.com

 

[Gecko]

Automotive News interviewed Lexus National Dealer Advisory Council Chairman John Iacono and through the process, revealed some interesting information about the brand’s future. Additional details from the interview were also provided by Motor1. Here are the highlights:

Iacono: “We’ve had SUVs that we’ve been asking for that we have gotten the thumbs up on, and they recently showed us some coming products that I really can’t expand on, but that we are very, very enthusiastic about.”
A new 3-row people mover is on the way, presumably the new TX 350 and TX 500h, set to replace the existing RX 350L and 450hL.
Changes are afoot for the LS, as Iacono notes, “An improved LS is also on the way. Not too many people really understand...

Continue reading...

 

[CRSKTN]

Thank god!

Regarding LS, I kinda speculated and Ian Schmidt sorta confirmed... so I have to give credit where it's due 🙂

?

 

[Gecko]

?

It might have even been earlier in this thread, but I made a comment that when I step back and look at the 5LS as a product, the execution and handling of it makes me wonder if Lexus viewed it as more of an interim holdover before a (possibly sooner to be released) 6LS. An LS that would be more in keeping with it's status as Lexus' pinnacle flagship vehicle, vs this one which has been very compromised with "meh" execution.

Ian replied that I might be right and said he's on the Lexus Advisory Board, and that Lexus has been asking specific questions of LS owners around what they want to see in the next generation with some fairly dramatic concepts. And I don't mean concept in the sense of concept car, but possibilities for how the LS may evolve overall.

So, to me, the context of Ian's reply seemed to confirm my theory.

Then, this little blip from Automotive News with the fact that there hasn't been a word about the LF-1 is pretty interesting.

 

[Levi]

are you saying there is a possibility new LS will be a cuv, aka LF1? also project code name of first gen LS was F1.

 

[CRSKTN]

are you saying there is a possibility new LS will be a cuv, aka LF1? also project code name of first gen LS was F1.

There's rumours of a crown/century SUV.

 

[spwolf]

LS-F? LS600? LS+?

Definitely not a next gen LS.

As to telemetrics, they created all new company there with ex-google guy so that is presumably be handled.

 

[sl0519]

It might have even been earlier in this thread, but I made a comment that when I step back and look at the 5LS as a product, the execution and handling of it makes me wonder if Lexus viewed it as more of an interim holdover before a (possibly sooner to be released) 6LS. An LS that would be more in keeping with it's status as Lexus' pinnacle flagship vehicle, vs this one which has been very compromised with "meh" execution.

Ian replied that I might be right and said he's on the Lexus Advisory Board, and that Lexus has been asking specific questions of LS owners around what they want to see in the next generation with some fairly dramatic concepts. And I don't mean concept in the sense of concept car, but possibilities for how the LS may evolve overall.

So, to me, the context of Ian's reply seemed to confirm my theory.

Then, this little blip from Automotive News with the fact that there hasn't been a word about the LF-1 is pretty interesting.

The only major deficit of the current LS I would say is the tech department, and maybe the curb weight of the current platform. The rest of the qualities are matched against German rivals pretty toe to toe.
For a 3 year old car, its styling is still very distinctive and bold, and the interior has some nice artistic touches unseen in this segment. Its handling capability is just as good as the Germans, with only a slight cost of ride comfort but were quickly addressed in the facelift model. Some may argued there is no longer a V8 option, but that is to be expected given the current emission regulation of global standards.