Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[mikeavelli]

Note this rumor has HP now bumped to 670hp.

 

[Sebass]

These rumors are manipulators of human emotions.
I don't know what to believe anymore.

 

[CRSKTN]

They've been talking a big game for years, they should put up or shut up and change their company motto to "pursuit of mediocrity".

I thought taking your own life out of shame was big in Japan? What are the dinosaurs who have dug their claws into TMC management waiting for?

Society progresses one funeral at a time, as they say.

Source: dealing with too many management teams who prioritize feeling important over getting the job done. Bonus for them is they get to be human speed bumps for everyone else trying to advance in life. Most won't be missed.

 

[ssun30]

BestCar got the torque figures wrong. 66.3kgf.m = 650N.m or 480lb.ft which is very low for a 4.0L TTV8 with such high specific power. Usually a 600-700PS turbocharged engine has 800-900N.m of torque. 670PS/650N.m is more like naturally aspirated than forced-induction, unless this engine has an extremely wide torque curve: 670PS means it maintains that 650N.m up to 7200rpm! I've never seen a forced-induction engine tuned this way. What makes sense is it has 663lb.ft of torque which is exactly 900N.m.

From another perspective, this rumored engine has 61% more power than V35A-FTS but only 8% more torque so it HAS to be wrong.

 

[mikeavelli]

They've been talking a big game for years, they should put up or shut up and change their company motto to "pursuit of mediocrity".

I thought taking your own life out of shame was big in Japan? What are the dinosaurs who have dug their claws into TMC management waiting for?

Society progresses one funeral at a time, as they say.

Source: dealing with too many management teams who prioritize feeling important over getting the job done. Bonus for them is they get to be human speed bumps for everyone else trying to advance in life. Most won't be missed.

To Lexus credit, they didn’t say much. It’s all rumors. The most we saw was the engine was going to debut at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring last May. Then COVID hit.

 

[yiantony]

meh, too many rumors. I will believe it when I see it.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

BestCar got the torque figures wrong. 66.3kgf.m = 650N.m or 480lb.ft which is very low for a 4.0L TTV8 with such high specific power. Usually a 600-700PS turbocharged engine has 800-900N.m of torque. 670PS/650N.m is more like naturally aspirated than forced-induction, unless this engine has an extremely wide torque curve: 670PS means it maintains that 650N.m up to 7200rpm! I've never seen a forced-induction engine tuned this way. What makes sense is it has 663lb.ft of torque which is exactly 900N.m.

From another perspective, this rumored engine has 61% more power than V35A-FTS but only 8% more torque so it HAS to be wrong.

It could also be an insanely high-strung engine where the V8 can behave similarly to a naturally aspirated engine but with the additional increase of torque over the NA motor. We have been hearing 480 lb-ft for some years now so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the final figure. A huge trademark of Lexus' V8 engines is how linearly it pulls. My guess is that they don't want the turbo to blast like a madman off launch like it does in the Porsche 911 Turbo S and ruin the intended characteristic of the car. Another guess could also be that they're trying to not put too much stress on the driveline hence the lower torque figure.

663 lb-ft is pretty insane and unheard of in 95% of cars out there, let alone a Toyota or a Lexus. We'd have to see I guess.

OH and also, here's something cool for you guys, this recent leak of information blew the hell up on Reddit and everyone's really looking forward to what's coming.

 

[CRSKTN]

480lbft is OK when you aren't charging $150-200k USD for your vehicle.

"We don't want our car to launch as fast as the competition" would be the moment I'd be picking up the phone to have TMC leadership involuntarily held for observation.

Unless the torque gap is going to be filled by an e axle...

 

[mikeavelli]

Crazy how this news is all over...

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

480lbft is OK when you aren't charging $150-200k USD for your vehicle.

"We don't want our car to launch as fast as the competition" would be the moment I'd be picking up the phone to have TMC leadership involuntarily held for observation.

Unless the torque gap is going to be filled by an e axle...

It's not about wanting to launch as fast as the competition. It's about launching as hard as the competition. It'd be pretty unexpected in a Lexus.

 

[CRSKTN]

It's not about wanting to launch as fast as the competition. It's about launching as hard as the competition. It'd be pretty unexpected in a Lexus.

Most people care about how fast they can go between lights. That's 0-15 or 0-30 time that sells and excites, not necessarily 0-60 or 1/4 mile.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Most people care about how fast they can go between lights. That's 0-15 or 0-30 time that sells and excites, not necessarily 0-60 or 1/4 mile.

I'm not denying that whatsoever, but I'm also thinking about whether Lexus wants to go down this route to not face any liability.

 

[ssun30]

Most people care about how fast they can go between lights. That's 0-15 or 0-30 time that sells and excites, not necessarily 0-60 or 1/4 mile.

Peak torque figure advertised by manufacturer does not determine how fast the car launches. Traction and gearing do.

Unlike turbocharged engines from 80s and 90s, modern turbocharged engines suffer a lot in the high rpm range with torque droping off considerably (25% over just 1000rpm). That's because most of them are high boost pressure, low air flow designs (like rally car engines that run 2.5 bar but 'choked' by a 36mm restrictor). As an example the 8AR-FTS runs 1.5 bar which is over twice of 2JZ-GTE. This way it maximizes low range response and power band and improves fuel economy.

That's why @F1 Silver Arrows was making a good point. Maybe Lexus is going for a more NA-like experience where the car doesn't feel dead at high rpm and driver is encouraged to shift late. But what I was saying is this kind of design is very uncommon in modern times and not easy to achieve; maintaining peak torque up to 7k+ rpm is hard.

663 lb-ft is pretty insane and unheard of in 95% of cars out there, let alone a Toyota or a Lexus. We'd have to see I guess.

Toyota's own 8AR-FTS and V35A-FTS make 175N.m per liter. Scaling that to 4L is 700N.m. So an low stress 'eco' design V8TT would still have way more than 650N.m. The G16E-GTS makes 370N.m out of 1.6L. Scaling that up to 4L gives over 900N.m. And we know Toyota under-rates the G16E-GTS (actual peak torque is 400+N.m according to dyno)

 

[carguy420]

Honestly though, how much can we trust this rumour? I really want these 3 new F models to actually go into production.

Maybe this new twin turbo V8 isn't tuned to generate crazy amount of torque because it's going to be wasted anyways since the LC F is going to be RWD only?

 

[mediumhot]

Crazy how this news is all over...

You being all over this thread in such a short period of time is a dead giveaway that something will go down as rumored My pick goes to IS as the one most likely to happen, LC facelift with V8tt still being a possibility but I ain't holding my breath for it while I don't buy current LS with new V8 at all.

 

[Lexus Jack]

F This! Just F'n bring these cars out already!!! My poor F'n heart cannot take it anymore!! F'it, F'it all I say!!

All joking aside, why do we not have a RX-F? It's the best selling Lexus in the United States, by far over the other models. It has the widest market appeal for the Lexus customers. It will give RX owners an image model while still offering all the wonderful things that the RX has (Reliability - I am looking at you BMW and Audi!!). It already looks pretty edgy. Just need the performance to match.

If I ran Lexus:
I would have a RX350 F Sport with a mild boost twin turbo 3.5L V6 with 400hp and some minor body mods to match the 43AMG models, the Audi S models, the BMW M Sport models. Then have the RX-F with more aggressive body and higher boost to 500hp to compete with the RS Audi's, M Bmw's, and the 63 AMG models. The formula has worked for the German brands for decades, it should work for Lexus. What we really need is street creds. But you cannot just buy that, you need to earn it. Lexus built the LF-A. That investment has trickled down to only the LC, maybe IS if you consider the Instrument Gauges. It's time for that image to trickle down to all of our models so we can see that the investment in the LF-A is paying off.

 

[mikeavelli]

Mood

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Peak torque figure advertised by manufacturer does not determine how fast the car launches. Traction and gearing do.

Unlike turbocharged engines from 80s and 90s, modern turbocharged engines suffer a lot in the high rpm range with torque droping off considerably (25% over just 1000rpm). That's because most of them are high boost pressure, low air flow designs (like rally car engines that run 2.5 bar but 'choked' by a 36mm restrictor). As an example the 8AR-FTS runs 1.5 bar which is over twice of 2JZ-GTE. This way it maximizes low range response and power band and improves fuel economy.

That's why @F1 Silver Arrows was making a good point. Maybe Lexus is going for a more NA-like experience where the car doesn't feel dead at high rpm and driver is encouraged to shift late. But what I was saying is this kind of design is very uncommon in modern times and not easy to achieve; maintaining peak torque up to 7k+ rpm is hard.

Toyota's own 8AR-FTS and V35A-FTS make 175N.m per liter. Scaling that to 4L is 700N.m. So an low stress 'eco' design V8TT would still have way more than 650N.m. The G16E-GTS makes 370N.m out of 1.6L. Scaling that up to 4L gives over 900N.m. And we know Toyota under-rates the G16E-GTS (actual peak torque is 400+N.m according to dyno)

My apologies, I wasn't specific enough. I had an example and that was Porsche 911 Turbo S. As you may know, the car makes an insane amount of torque. I forgot to mention where in the rev range does all of that torque come into notice. In cars like that 911, it's almost immediate, and it's an insanely violent experience. You're correct, obviously peak torque figure doesn't dictate how hard a car launches. If that was the case then a semi-truck would shoot through the stratosphere, I just wasn't fully awake it seems.

And my other point was, maybe Toyota doesn't want to bring too much stress on the driveline with that lower torque figure so they're faced with less liability?

 

[ssun30]

My apologies, I wasn't specific enough. I had an example and that was Porsche 911 Turbo S. As you may know, the car makes an insane amount of torque. I forgot to mention where in the rev range does all of that torque come into notice. In cars like that 911, it's almost immediate, and it's an insanely violent experience. You're correct, obviously peak torque figure doesn't dictate how hard a car launches. If that was the case then a semi-truck would shoot through the stratosphere, I just wasn't fully awake it seems.

And my other point was, maybe Toyota doesn't want to bring too much stress on the driveline with that lower torque figure so they're faced with less liability?

Actually, the more we discuss about this, the more I think this rumored spec makes sense. At 650N.m total each cylinder only contributes 81.25N.m which is even lower than an eco turbo design (e.g. 8AR-FTS makes 87.5N.m per cylinder). They could achieve this using the electronic waste gate and run very low boost pressure at low to mid rpm. This thing will probably hit 650N.m at as low as 1500rpm running <0.7 bar (the 8AR-FTS hit 350N.m at only 1600rpm), and gradually increasing boost to maintain that 650N.m all the way up to 7200rpm. This thing will have the widest power band and be the most linear turbocharged engine every built. If they want LC-F to approach LFA's extremely linear and responsive experience this kind of design is actually mandatory (obviously they won't but it will be as close as possible). This also allows them to use a lighter weight torque converter and lighter entire bottom end so response is even better.

Obviously a problem with this is they wouldn't use this engine on LX or GR Land Cruiser since a 7500+ rpm engine doesn't make sense on a big SUV.

 

[Levi]

But then even with turbo LC F won't sell because "slow turbo car".