Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[Gecko]

At some point, Lexus is going to have to stop hiding behind the "Driver's car," excuse for building underpowered cars.

If they build F cars, they need to be at performance parity with competitive vehicles... it is people who like to drive that buy them, and they are aware of something like a 200lb-ft deficit in power.

 

[Levi]

At some point, Lexus is going to have to stop hiding behind the "Driver's car," excuse for building underpowered cars.

If they build F cars, they need to be at performance parity with competitive vehicles... it is people who like to drive that buy them, and they are aware of something like a 200lb-ft deficit in power.

heavy weight, autos, awd, bad sound, "laggy" turbo dont' seem the hurt sales of RS, AMG and M. quite the contrary infact.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

At some point, Lexus is going to have to stop hiding behind the "Driver's car," excuse for building underpowered cars.

If they build F cars, they need to be at performance parity with competitive vehicles... it is people who like to drive that buy them, and they are aware of something like a 200lb-ft deficit in power.

Well all the time we hear people that they'd jump the gun for a Lexus LC or LS if it wasn't for the infotainment. If I had a dollar every time I heard someone say this I would have enough money to buy a LC or a LS myself.

Actually, the more we discuss about this, the more I think this rumored spec makes sense. At 650N.m total each cylinder only contributes 81.25N.m which is even lower than an eco turbo design (e.g. 8AR-FTS makes 87.5N.m per cylinder). They could achieve this using the electronic waste gate and run very low boost pressure at low to mid rpm. This thing will probably hit 650N.m at as low as 1500rpm running <0.7 bar (the 8AR-FTS hit 350N.m at only 1600rpm), and gradually increasing boost to maintain that 650N.m all the way up to 7200rpm. This thing will have the widest power band and be the most linear turbocharged engine every built. If they want LC-F to approach LFA's extremely linear and responsive experience this kind of design is actually mandatory (obviously they won't but it will be as close as possible). This also allows them to use a lighter weight torque converter and lighter entire bottom end so response is even better.

Obviously a problem with this is they wouldn't use this engine on LX or GR Land Cruiser since a 7500+ rpm engine doesn't make sense on a big SUV.

Now here's the thing, is there an inherent benefit to having a lower torque figure in what you described? Can't you have all that same behavior but have it at a higher peak torque level? Think of a it as a line being shifted up a cartesian plane instead of being scaled and mutated.

 

[Saidthenoob]

if the IS-F does come to fruition will they stick a better transmission in it? will it have AWD option, and most important of all would they charge it the same price as the RC-F or a bit lower?

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

if the IS-F does come to fruition will they stick a better transmission in it? will it have AWD option, and most important of all would they charge it the same price as the RC-F or a bit lower?

If it has beefed up chassis, suspension, components like TVD or even LSD, big brakes, wheels, tires then it is impossible to be cheaper than the RCF. All of that costs a lot of money. I know it because I own one.

 

[Saidthenoob]

If it has beefed up chassis, suspension, components like TVD or even LSD, big brakes, wheels, tires then it is impossible to be cheaper than the RCF. All of that costs a lot of money. I know it because I own one.

here in canada the RC-F starts at 85,000 CAD where as the new M3 base package (manual 473hp/406tq) starts at also 85,000 CAD. i hope the IS-F will be 75kish.

 

[ssun30]

Now here's the thing, is there an inherent benefit to having a lower torque figure in what you described?

lighter everything because you know, the base car is too heavy

At some point, Lexus is going to have to stop hiding behind the "Driver's car," excuse for building underpowered cars.

Or rather they should stop building overweight cars. being behind on power-to-weight ratio is a combination of power and weight. With GA-L weight is the bigger problem. The LC-F needs 750PS to match the power-to-weight ratio of LFA which 'only' had 560PS 10 years ago. Then they also don't have the weight budget to add in AWD to help put down all that power.

And the rumored weight for LS-F is 2500kg, It's not hard to imagine the LF1 V8 weighing close to 2700kg, as heavy as the BOF LX570.

With all the hindsight it's actually a good thing the new IS did not switch to GA-N since the new platform is 100kg heavier. A GA-N IS500 will be heavier than GS-F. GA-N/L simply are bad platforms to build any performance car on.
[/QUOTE]
It will be as fast as the rear tyres allow it to be. We already know it won't win any drag races by not going AWD. Heavy weight+RWD isn't a recipe to win any spec sheet battle.

 

[internalaudit]

heavy weight, autos, awd, bad sound, "laggy" turbo dont' seem the hurt sales of RS, AMG and M. quite the contrary infact.

When you have the brand cachet, it probably doesn't matter the car drives lousily, the admirers will not be driving the cars anyway.

F Sport AWD models should include a better AWD system akin to Acura's SH-AWD.

But hey, most people don't care about rear axle torque vectoring. That's one of requisites if I'm buying a new to newish car down the road.

Power with inadequate handling is not enough in my book.

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

here in canada the RC-F starts at 85,000 CAD where as the new M3 base package (manual 473hp/406tq) starts at also 85,000 CAD. i hope the IS-F will be 75kish.

That is apples to oranges. The $85K you mentioned, is fully spec'ed RCF since there is no "base" model. It has everything except the carbon/TVD and the 20 split spoke hand polished wheels. Mine is the carbon/TVD with the 20 split spoke wheels and MSRP was $94K + tax. When you say an M3 base, it is a stripped out base version. Once you add a few packages, you are looking at around $100K+ for a comparably loaded one.

For $75K, these days you don't get that much in high-end luxury. For example, my RX450h with premium package had an MSRP of $71K. You could imagine an ISF is not just going to be slightly more than that.

 

[Ismelllikepoop]

i'm sure they'll keep the msrp around the RCF, and once the pent up demand is met throw in lexus cash. i mean right off the bat the IS refresh already had incentives which i didn't expect.

 

[Saidthenoob]

i'm sure they'll keep the msrp around the RCF, and once the pent up demand is met throw in lexus cash. i mean right off the bat the IS refresh already had incentives which i didn't expect.

hope so, also I don't think they can compete with the M3 as its all-new. One thing thats holding me back from the refreshed RC-F was the interior, it just looks too outdated, since I already have the IS350, for me to jump into a IS-F or RC-F it will need to be cheaper for me comparably to the M3. Also the biggest selling point to me is the engine, if they can make it sing like the LC500 - then I am all in, but if it sounds like the RC-F (which is meh) then I don't know.

 

[mikeavelli]

Y’all keep mentioning weight but the people that buy the cars don’t really care. All the German cars weigh a ton. Hell the new M3/M4 is over 4000lbs now with the same engine.

Now they do offer more power or faster cars. No doubt. But the whole weight argument is more moot. Besides these are GTs first, not sports cars. These ain’t 911s and even that continues to put on weight.

Remember, manuals are dead. Car companies figured out people want automatics, they can sell them to more people and they can advertise them as faster. Soul and feel didn’t matter. Now we have a handful of manuals left.

We live in a world with AMG etc suvs and awd M5s. Weight doesn’t matter.

 

[Gecko]

Y’all keep mentioning weight but the people that buy the cars don’t really care. All the German cars weigh a ton. Hell the new M3/M4 is over 4000lbs now with the same engine.

Now they do offer more power or faster cars. No doubt. But the whole weight argument is more moot. Besides these are GTs first, not sports cars. These ain’t 911s and even that continues to put on weight.

Remember, manuals are dead. Car companies figured out people want automatics, they can sell them to more people and they can advertise them as faster. Soul and feel didn’t matter. Now we have a handful of manuals left.

We live in a world with AMG etc suvs and awd M5s. Weight doesn’t matter.

Performance is just as directly tied to weight as it is horsepower, so it definitely does matter especially when most Lexus vehicles are underpowered and some are badly overweight. Does the RX owner care about weight? Nope. Does the LC, LS or IS shopper care about weight? Maybe not WEIGHT per se, but they feel and care about acceleration and performance, and weight is the anchor that will sink that ship faster than anything.

The LS crossing 5,000 lbs when it only has a tad north of 400hp is a problem: the car is slow off the line, the engine works harder to move the car, and it definitely sounds like a V6 while doing it. The S560 with a V8 and AWD weighs 4,800 lbs. The S65 AMG weighs under 5k lbs and the BMW M760iL xDrive weighs a hair over 5k. The BMW 740i weighs almost a thousand pounds less than the LS 500, and both have 6 cylinder engines. So the LS needs an extra ~90hp to keep pace with the BMW because of it.

IS has the advantage of being built on the older "New N" platform, so it could come in at or under 4k lbs once the IS 500 or IS F comes to fruition. That would be killer, and will make the car fast and fun to drive like an M3 but with different power delivery.

Rumors have a potential LS F weighing 5,500 - 5,700 lbs. That is as much as a freaking Land Cruiser, and it means the LS will be dealing with an extra ~600lbs compared to the S65/63 and M760Li. That's going to hurt the LS F just as much as it has hurt the LS 500.

So yeah... weight matters, especially for performance vehicles. But Lexus has the double whammy of having cars that are overweight and generally underpowered. Furthermore, without turbos and a better AWD system, Lexus vehicles lack the off-the-line traction as well as low- to mid-range punch from turbos.

... but what will it cost if they add AWD to the LS F? Another 200 lbs? Let's just round up to 6,000 lbs so owners have to file for a oversize/overweight permit when they purchase! 😭 😂

 

[Will1991]

Regarding Lexus products weight, we cannot forget how far Lexus keeps going to lower it:

• Current LC500 convertible has more carbon fiber, a different high-strenght steel, lightweight die-cast aluminum for the construction of the rear suspension tower brace to offset some of the added weight from the chassis reinforcements;
• 2021 LC500 received aluminum lower suspension arms, lighter suspension stabilizers with a hollow design and revised diameter, new high-strength coil spring material, and lighter 21-inch rear wheels;
• For the latest RCF it created a titanium exhaust system and developed a lightweight rear bumper reinforcement which consists of a thin-walled Aluminum bumper reinforcement with a unidirectional CFRP sheet being 11% lighter, carbon ceramic brakes, more carbon fiber components, hollow shafts, smaller air condicioner compressor;
• 2021 IS uses lighter weight hub bolts to reduce only 2 pounds, lighter forged aluminium A-arms and suspension stabilizers (-18/17%).

They're not light cars, but Lexus has been making steady improvements on latest models.

 

[Ismelllikepoop]

is the LSF filled with gold? why would it be approaching a mulsanne weight wise?

 

[Gecko]

Regarding Lexus products weight, we cannot forget how far Lexus keeps going to lower it:

• Current LC500 convertible has more carbon fiber, a different high-strenght steel, lightweight die-cast aluminum for the construction of the rear suspension tower brace to offset some of the added weight from the chassis reinforcements;
• 2021 LC500 received aluminum lower suspension arms, lighter suspension stabilizers with a hollow design and revised diameter, new high-strength coil spring material, and lighter 21-inch rear wheels;
• For the latest RCF it created a titanium exhaust system and developed a lightweight rear bumper reinforcement which consists of a thin-walled Aluminum bumper reinforcement with a unidirectional CFRP sheet being 11% lighter, carbon ceramic brakes, more carbon fiber components, hollow shafts, smaller air condicioner compressor;
• 2021 IS uses lighter weight hub bolts to reduce only 2 pounds, lighter forged aluminium A-arms and suspension stabilizers (-18/17%).

They're not light cars, but Lexus has been making steady improvements on latest models.

We both know this stuff is small peanuts in regard to the materials and chassis construction that goes into GA-L and GA-N... we're talking a pound or two here and there on a car that weighs 4,500 - 5,100 lbs. It's like being 50lbs over your weight class for a wrestling match and hoping that buzzing your head makes the difference.

I very much admire Lexus' focus on rigidity and stiffness, but it came at a (literally) heavy price. It's not the end of the world, if I'm making it seem that way... many people do not drive an LS or LC in a way that an extra 300-500lbs makes a big difference, but its clear: the cars are overweight and it impacts performance and fuel economy. Those are just the facts. And for what it's worth, the LC 500 is one of my favorite cars and one of the best cars I've ever driven... I'd still buy it even if it's fat 🙃.

If the LS had a ~470-500hp V8 at 5k lbs, I don't think anyone would be complaining. But as the numbers show above, the starting point is GA-L and GA-L is just really heavy... so if we are here splitting hairs on torque curves and 640 vs 661hp, point is that both cars are already carrying more weight than the competition, so they're probably not going to be "numbers cars." How does the competition accomplish numbers? Turbos, underrating their engines, and AWD for the best possible traction at launch. Lexus has yet to put all of those things into play in one car.

Maybe Lexus will shock us and the LS F and LC F will come with CFRP fenders, hoods and decklids, reworked lightweight aluminum components throughout, and turbo V8s with 661hp and 650lb-ft of torque. Maybe they won't come at all. We just don't know, and it's all speculation anyway.

But regardless, my hope is:
1. They've learned a few things with GA-L - both as related to the chassis' strengths (rigidity, stiffness) and weaknesses (weight)
2. Lexus is working on a new RWD architecture, as some rumors have recently stated
3. We get to see the fruits of their labor in the next few years in RWD products that are not overweight and not underpowered

And just to be clear on my stance, despite being too heavy, I think GA-L has been a huge step forward for Lexus in building wholly better cars. No doubt about that.



P.S. Realize that GA-L may very well be part of the reason we never got the LF-1. LC 500 is 4,500 lbs and LS is 4,800 -5,100 lbs. Imagine what a CUV-ized LS would weigh with extra height and gear, and a proper AWD system... 5,700lbs? 5,900lbs? Throw in a V8 and you're theoretically pretty damn close to 6k lbs.

 

[ssun30]

In Chinese we call it "add too much water to make dough too wet then add too much flour to make dough too dry". Starting with a heavy platform means more power required to keep up, but adding more power means even more weight necessary to handle the extra power. It then becomes a negative spiral.

Sure the competition products are also getting heavier, but that's because they are able to pack a lot more heavy technology thanks to the lighter base platform. I'm pretty surprised when I saw the huge weight gap between 740Li and LS500.

Rumors have a potential LS F weighing 5,500 - 5,700 lbs. That is as much as a freaking Land Cruiser

On the positive side. We know the new Tundra will be a quick truck because the LS500 AWD has similar weight and same engine 😂

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

if they can make it sing like the LC500 - then I am all in, but if it sounds like the RC-F (which is meh) then I don't know.

The LC500 got the same identical that was developed originally for the RCF. Only difference is 471 HP vs 472 HP and RCF revs a bit higher while LC500 tuned for better low-end torque (398 ft-lbs vs 395 ft-lbs).

What you are talking about is the difference in the OEM exhausts, which is much better on the LC500 than the RCF. However, RCF easily sounds 10x better than with its OEM with a full aftermarket exhaust (and around 20 whp with it)

 

[internalaudit]

Regarding Lexus products weight, we cannot forget how far Lexus keeps going to lower it:

• Current LC500 convertible has more carbon fiber, a different high-strenght steel, lightweight die-cast aluminum for the construction of the rear suspension tower brace to offset some of the added weight from the chassis reinforcements;
• 2021 LC500 received aluminum lower suspension arms, lighter suspension stabilizers with a hollow design and revised diameter, new high-strength coil spring material, and lighter 21-inch rear wheels;
• For the latest RCF it created a titanium exhaust system and developed a lightweight rear bumper reinforcement which consists of a thin-walled Aluminum bumper reinforcement with a unidirectional CFRP sheet being 11% lighter, carbon ceramic brakes, more carbon fiber components, hollow shafts, smaller air condicioner compressor;
• 2021 IS uses lighter weight hub bolts to reduce only 2 pounds, lighter forged aluminium A-arms and suspension stabilizers (-18/17%).

They're not light cars, but Lexus has been making steady improvements on latest models.

I wish Lexus could use all aluminum hoods and fenders so that I don't have to worry about rusting from road salt haha. I think the TLX comes with those aluminum body parts.

I know Toyota is a penny pincher but yeah competition will just keep getting fiercer.

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

I wish Lexus could use all aluminum hoods and fenders so that I don't have to worry about rusting from road salt haha. I think the TLX comes with those aluminum body parts.

I know Toyota is a penny pincher but yeah competition will just keep getting fiercer.

My RCF has aluminum hood. I assume, LC500 has one. I think they don't put them in volume sellers yet.