internalaudit

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The sales numbers are still very good for North American. Lexus has done really well in world market.s

You mean as long as sales is growing, a company should embrace the status quo?

Once BEVs become mainstream, it is going to cost less to maintain European models as long as Electrical Gremlins are no longer an issue. I think that's bound to happen with higher voltage systems. I probably would be willing to dip my toes and get a used e-tron S with torque vectoring five to six years down road.

Hyundai and Kia also seem more serious with their feature-laden offferings, even if gimmicky like the Sonata's Smart Park. I wouldn't buy one for those gimmicks alone , but they sure are upping the ante.
 
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LexsCTJill

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You mean as long as sales is growing, a company should embrace the status quo?

Huh?

Hyundai and Kia also seem more serious with their feature-laden offferings, even if gimmicky like the Sonata's Smart Park. I wouldn't buy one for those gimmicks alone , but they sure are upping the ante.

Not sure how Hyundai or KIA is relevant to this thread.
 

internalaudit

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Huh?



Not sure how Hyundai or KIA is relevant to this thread.

You said sales we doing great, did you read the thread title and article?

Or the 0% 60 month financing thread that was recently created?

Competitors offering features on cheaper models not found on any Lexus sounds relalevant enough to me.
 
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LexsCTJill

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You said sales we doing great, did you read the thread title and article?

Or the 0% 60 month financing thread that was recently created?

Competitors offering features on cheaper models not found on any Lexus sounds related enough to me.

I said sales were still very good in North American...never said great.
 

spwolf

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Make something the market wants? :)

What is the point of market research? Let a few corporate newbies read up on forums like these to gather marketing intelligence.

Sounds more like laziness to not be in tune with what the market wants. The sales numbers are out there, even for the competition.

In this day and age, it's not hard to find out why some products sell briskly while others languish.

He is saying that it is hard to make GS that is competitive with lease offers that Germans offer, obviously he is not talking about short term offers due to the covid-19.

It is also not that hard to understand either.
 

LexsCTJill

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He is saying that it is hard to make GS that is competitive with lease offers that Germans offer, obviously he is not talking about short term offers due to the covid-19.

It is also not that hard to understand either.

Why do I keep hearing German lease offers etc etc? I don't understand.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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Agreed. Hopefully this Lexus-centric excerpt from Automotive News' interview with new Toyota North America CEO Ted Ogawa will help bring it back on track:

Toyota has had a very conservative product cadence; the Tundra is a prime example, having not been fully redesigned since 2007. Are there plans to shorten that lengthy cadence?
In the case of the Toyota lineup, right now, it's a very good cadence, with one or two new [or refreshed] models per year, and will continue. So dealers are happy, and we are confident, even if the Tundra is too far in its life cycle. We have a new one coming soon, but they are selling currently.

I have no worries about the Toyota lineup, but in the case of Lexus, the cadence is an issue. So for this year, the LC convertible is new. Profitwise, it may be OK, but in this sense, the Lexus dealer body wants to see more product sooner.

How will you change that within Lexus?
We need to change the cadence and the product and the powertrain. Cadence is a planning concept, so that's a No. 1 priority. And then product, next to the powertrain, right now is a second order.

What do you think ails Lexus? Where is the weak point? Is it something that can be fixed with product?
Yes, product and the cadence, and No. 2 is the cost competitiveness. Aggressive incentives from German brands in particular are impacting the market. So we need to change the luxury market, which has been tough for us. Customers rely on the quality of our products, but dealers have issues with cadence. I can improve product and cadence because those are in my hands. But I cannot control the market, so that's very difficult, and I don't have the right answer yet for that.
I find the whole timeline and gradual unveiling of this information quite intriguing. Back on March 9, before the worst of the pandemic and the factory closings in North America and Japan, Automotive News' Larry Vellequette (their current Toyota reporter) and publisher Jason Stein met with Tetsuo "Ted" Ogawa at Toyota North America HQ in Plano, Texas for an hour-long interview. This took place less than a month before Ogawa-san took over from Jim Lentz as Toyota North America CEO. On March 30 (just before the Lentz-to-Ogawa handoff on April 1) Vellequette publishes excerpts from the interview and Krew posts a Lexus Enthusiast news report on this along with some commentary. This led to a separate 3-page forums thread that I've taken the liberty of merging into this one.

Now, over 1.5 months later, the definitive version of the Q&A interview emerges. (Read it in its entirety in a thread on our Toyota Planet forum). I think it definitely deserves a Lexus Enthusiast front page followup story, the only question being whether Krew or yours truly will do the honors.

And my thoughts on all this? On the above thread, @wyvern nailed it when he described it as a "thoughtful, no bullsh*t interview". Ogawa-san's regrets on Lexus' poor product cadence were an impressive and refreshing show of candor. It was all the more notable because he was questioned on the long-in-the-tooth Toyota Tundra, yet he spontaneously pivoted to the Lexus issue.

Sadly, apologies alone aren't going to fix what ails Lexus. The remainder of 2020 and much of 2021 are going to be barren as far as Lexus product news that will make a significant positive impact. Facelifts for the current IS and LS will likely barely cause a ripple in the market overall.

And, with the way the COVID-19 pandemic has played out, with factory production stoppages and major financial losses, we can't disregard the possibility of further product rescheduling. An article by Hans Greimel of Automotive News quotes Toyota's Chief Financial Officer Kenta Kon as saying that

...the company will delay some new model plans because of the pandemic slowdown.

"When we look at future, new model plans, there there will be some projects that will be delayed. There will be some delays in development activities. And for new model launches we are going to take this time as an opportunity to review what we have done in the past as business as usual. So, for our full-model changes, minor changes and small-change projects, we are doing a total review of whether we should do it or not."

Kon declined to provide details on what changes were in store but said they would not be significant.

I can't help but wonder about LC F. Its new twin-turbo V8 is supposed to be unveiled in the LC racer Lexus will enter in the ADAC TOTAL 24 Hours of the Nürburgring race. That race, originally scheduled for late May, has been postponed to September 24-27 because of COVID-19. Will this delay affect the development and eventual production start of LC F? I fear it will. Worse, the newly downgraded Toyota finances and COVID-19 Recession (if not Depression) may well kill it as an unnecessary vanity project. Its possible salvation: maybe a variant of that twin turbo V8 is crucial to Toyota's North American truck future and the LC F and endurance racing will provide valuable development input for eventual higher-volume applications.

It's going to be a long year-plus before we see something truly significantly new from Lexus. And Ogawa-san tacitly admits what has bothered many of us Lexus enthusiasts:

In the case of the Toyota lineup, right now, it's a very good cadence, with one or two new [or refreshed] models per year, and will continue. So dealers are happy, and we are confident...I have no worries about the Toyota lineup, but in the case of Lexus, the cadence is an issue.
 

Gecko

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Perhaps not surprisingly to some of you, I see this interview as fairly troubling. Lexus executives have been talking about "cadence" and "product" issues for 3+ years now in various interviews... now we are in 2020 saying the same things again? I know that Toyota is extremely conservative when discussing future product plans with the media, but much like the Tundra comments, they tend to let out an, "it's coming, and it will be great" tease that at least shows there is a pending resolution.

Having observed Toyota's corporate culture for a long time, I was surprised by the candor of these two lines: "So for this year, the LC convertible is new. Profitwise, it may be OK, but in this sense, the Lexus dealer body wants to see more product sooner." For one of the most senior Toyota executives in the world to publicly state that Lexus/Lexus dealers "may be OK profitwise" is rather shocking. Then the follow up comment about dealers wanting to see more product sooner is about as direct as we will ever get with contextual acknowledgement of profitability issues.

He defines "cadence" as planning, and calls it the #1 problem, followed by product and powertrains. There is a lack of planning at Lexus - there you have it, plain and simple. 10 years for 4LS, 7+ years and an IS refresh coming, 12+ years for LX, 10+ years for GX... we have spent a lot of time here speculating about what's going on inside of Lexus, and there is our best clue and fairly direct acknowledgement: there are major planning problems. Many of us assumed, but there it is.

It's interesting to me that he was so forthcoming about Scion's demise being product-driven, but later talks about Lexus and says, "Yes, it's the #1/#2 problem," without much of a follow up. This worries me, because I feel like there should have been some sort of talk or hint about next gen NX and RX being the company's bread and butter, and coming to get them back on track, or something similar. Even some acknowledgment about the upcoming LS refresh as a flagship model? Nothing. Later where he talks about the 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra and Sequoia... a GX hint would have been nice. Not even LF-1? Nothing about Lexus seems noteworthy or top-of-mind for Ogawa.

The point about the Germans is interesting, and I feel like @spwolf is right on the money. Another nail in the coffin for the GS was that it's an expensive vehicle to make, while you can lease a 5 Series or E300 for $400/mo. Lexus can't compete with that, and requires the price competitiveness of TNGA/ES to remain in that segment. I also think it's interesting to consider these comments in the context of a 7 year old IS, upcoming refresh, and the 3 Series and C Class. Make your own conclusions.

"Customers want quality, but dealers want more product, sooner. I can control product and cadence, but I [don't have the answer for how we fix the problems for Lexus in the market]." is how I read that follow up line. Again, I wish we were getting more of a strategy/solution read vs. just an acknowledgment of what is wrong. These problems have been way too pervasive for way too long (a decade now) for Lexus to still be trying to determine how to even attack them.

As many of us have noted, things for Toyota have probably never been better. Almost all-new TNGA unibody lineup over 2.5 years and he says that 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra and Sequoia are coming back soon, and touches on the Land Cruiser. Just a shame there seems to be no excitement or fire around Lexus or Lexus product.
 
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Perhaps not surprisingly to some of you, I see this interview as fairly troubling. Lexus executives have been talking about "cadence" and "product" issues for 3+ years now in various interviews... now we are in 2020 saying the same things again? I know that Toyota is extremely conservative when discussing future product plans with the media, but much like the Tundra comments, they tend to let out an, "it's coming, and it will be great" comment that at least shows there is a pending resolution.

Having observed Toyota's corporate culture for a long time, I was surprised by the candor of these two lines: "So for this year, the LC convertible is new. Profitwise, it may be OK, but in this sense, the Lexus dealer body wants to see more product sooner." For one of the most senior Toyota executives in the world to publicly state that Lexus/Lexus dealers "may be OK profitwise" is rather shocking. Then the follow up comment about dealers wanting to see more product sooner is about as direct as we will ever get with contextual acknowledgement of profitability issues.

He defines "cadence" as planning, and calls it the #1 problem, followed by product and powertrains. There is a lack of planning at Lexus - there you have it plain and simple. 10 years for 4LS, 7+ years and an IS refresh coming, 12+ years for LX, 10+ years for GX... we have spent a lot of time here speculating about what's going on inside of Lexus, and there is our best clue and fairly direct acknowledgement: there are major planning problems. Many of us assumed, but there it is.

It's interesting to me that he was so forthcoming about Scion's demise being product-driven, but later talks about Lexus and says, "Yes, it's the #1/#2 problem," without much of a follow up. This worries me, because I feel like there should have been some sort of talk or hint about next gen NX and RX being the company's bread and butter, and coming to get them back on track, or something similar. Even some acknowledge about the upcoming LS refresh as a flagship model? Nothing. Later where he talks about the 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra and Sequoia... a GX hint would have been nice. Not even LF-1? Nothing about Lexus seems noteworthy or top-of-mind for Ogawa.

The point about the Germans is interesting, and I feel like @spwolf is right on the money. Another nail in the coffin for the GS was that it's an expensive vehicle to make, while you can lease a 5 Series or E300 for $400/mo. Lexus can't compete with that, and requires the price competitiveness of TNGA/ES to remain in that segment. I also think it's interesting to consider these comments in the context of a 7 year old IS, upcoming refresh, and the 3 Series and C Class. Make your own conclusions.

"Customers want quality, but dealers want more product, sooner. I can control product and cadence, but I [don't have the answer for how we fix the problems for Lexus in the market]." is how I read that follow up line. Again, I wish we were getting more of a strategy/solution read vs. just an acknowledgment of what is wrong. These problems have been way too pervasive for way too long (a decade now) for Lexus to still be trying to determine how to even attack them.

As many of us have noted, things for Toyota have probably never been better. Almost all-new TNGA unibody lineup over 2.5 years and he says that 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra and Sequoia are coming back soon, and touches on the Land Cruiser. Just a shame there seems to be no excitement or fire around Lexus or Lexus product.

Is there a possibility that you or anyone else that has been involved with Lexus can reach out to these guys and grill them with these important questions?

I've seen a video of @krew doing a review of a Lexus ES when it came out. I assume this website is quite big in terms of influence to Lexus and to the automotive media, how about any administrators from here reaching out to them?

It would be amazing if a major Lexus executive accepts an interview or has a back-and-forth dialogue with one of us via email to get a further insight of what's going on or give them a view of what the current demand is? Heck, I would just hyperlink this website and ask them to read some relevant threads from start to finish. I would even ask why the hell are they being so shady and what's the benefit of being so secretive to their customer base.

I can't think of any other way that we could reach out to them. At least it wouldn't hurt to try. If anyone influential would seriously consider this we could create a group, think up of a list of questions to ask them, and link some relevant posts that think what we're thinking then get someone big to email them or reach out for an interview. After all, other than speaking to each other in the forums, does any of our messages or thoughts even matter to anybody at Lexus? Why not we make the move to approach them first to see if they'll bite?
 
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mordecai

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They must have been aware of this cadence issue with Lexus since 2014 at LEAST. I say 2014 because this was when the new Lexus “spindle” re branding was already quite well established. And yet here we are, 6 years later with no improvements on that front.

The IS is rumored to be doing another late-cycle refresh time extend this generation to be almost 10 years by the time the next-generation arrives (2023). The LX and GX is long in the tooth, although outside of their very dated interior they are still quite competitive and actually considered by many to be desirable, which is more than we can say about the sedan lineup. After more than a decade of development, they have made the LS into a laughing stock of that segment, with an older Genesis G90 beating it in some comparisons (although I personally don’t agree). The GS is dead while Genesis has unveiled their best looking car yet in the G80.

They are late again with the LF-1 production model, with the X8 and Q8 already firmly established and will have been on sale for 2 years before we even see the LF-1 production model. The UX is an utter failure in my eye (in addition to being an eyesore) I cannot believe they gave what could have been one of their biggest products to an inexperienced Chief Engineer.

The only positives I see are that the NX has been super successful, I really hope they don’t screw it up. Also their bread and butter will be due for a new generation in the next couple of years, I really hope they plan it with the RX-L in mind and not as afterthought.

Lexus sales performance has been good, but their brand has taken quite a big hit in the last few years. They need much better products in the higher end, or their brand cache will continue to deteriorate.
 

Gecko

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Is there a possibility that you or anyone else that has been involved with Lexus can reach out to these guys and grill them with these important questions?

I've seen a video of @krew doing a review of a Lexus ES when it came out. I assume this website is quite big in terms of influence to Lexus and to the automotive media, how about any administrators from here reaching out to them?

It would be amazing if a major Lexus executive accepts an interview or has a back-and-forth dialogue with one of us via email to get a further insight of what's going on or give them a view of what the current demand is? Heck, I would just hyperlink this website and ask them to read some relevant threads from start to finish. I would even ask why the hell are they being so shady and what's the benefit of being so secretive to their customer base.

I can't think of any other way that we could reach out to them. At least it wouldn't hurt to try. If anyone influential would seriously consider this we could create a group, think up of a list of questions to ask them, and link some relevant posts that think what we're thinking then get someone big to email them or reach out for an interview. After all, other than speaking to each other in the forums, does any of our messages or thoughts even matter to anybody at Lexus? Why not we make the move to approach them first to see if they'll bite?

The folks I know at Lexus/Toyota are all telling me the same thing, which is that they really don't know what's going on at Lexus. The dealer meeting last year was pretty quiet with lots of promises of a Lexus product "reboot" coming "in the next few years." There was some acknowledgement of slow product launches and a statement that it would continue for the near term, but a lot of promises about the future pipeline. Typically, I hear a lot more from them about what's coming 1-2 years out and I've been trying to figure out if A) people are holding info closer to the vest, B) people don't know what's going on or C) Lexus really doesn't have any upcoming product info to share, so it's not making it's way beyond a few employees at high levels. My impression from talking to these people lately is a mix of B and C - there isn't much near term product to talk about, and therefore, they don't know what's going on.

A lot of signs - this interview, my Lexus/Toyota contacts, product releases, product delays - seem to confirm that Toyota is just not sure what to do with Lexus, and not sure how to fix it. I won't go beyond that for now... my opinions are pretty well known on this subject.
 

Will1991

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@Gecko , this situation with Lexus is quite strange to me... From one side, we've a inappropriate product planing but from the other side we've news of more factories (India, Canada comes to mind) and opening to new markets...

The later one, does makes me believe they don't want to do a Infiniti but the first one...

I just hope Lexus solves this ASAP, even yesterday is running late.
 

ssun30

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The whole problem with cadence is their extremely passive and reactive way of adapting to market changes. Because they are so cautious about making any product, the product gets delayed. And when it gets delayed, it takes longer time to recoup the R&D cost which makes the ROI on the program even worse and the cycle goes on and on. In the end the result is every program that requires substantial investment without guaranteed return gets cancelled. And to make up for the money wasted on cancelled programs, current products get extended indefinitely until absolutely necessary. The reason Lexus has not become Infiniti is that their core products are so strong they can get away with them being outdated.
 
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The folks I know at Lexus/Toyota are all telling me the same thing, which is that they really don't know what's going on at Lexus. The dealer meeting last year was pretty quiet with lots of promises of a Lexus product "reboot" coming "in the next few years." There was some acknowledgement of slow product launches and a statement that it would continue for the near term, but a lot of promises about the future pipeline. Typically, I hear a lot more from them about what's coming 1-2 years out and I've been trying to figure out if A) people are holding info closer to the vest, B) people don't know what's going on or C) Lexus really doesn't have any upcoming product info to share, so it's not making it's way beyond a few employees at high levels. My impression from talking to these people lately is a mix of B and C - there isn't much near term product to talk about, and therefore, they don't know what's going on.

A lot of signs - this interview, my Lexus/Toyota contacts, product releases, product delays - seem to confirm that Toyota is just not sure what to do with Lexus, and not sure how to fix it. I won't go beyond that for now... my opinions are pretty well known on this subject.

Then I have a feeling if someone from here reaches out to them and giving them a piece of what we're feeling is probably a good idea.
 

mordecai

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I hate to be so direct, but at this point, do you think Lexus really cares about enthusiasts anymore? I don't.

They’ll release an F sport model, change the wood interior to faux carbon fiber, and call it a day. They think enthusiasts only care about performance models, when really we care about the whole package and the direction of the brand as well.
 

internalaudit

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Is it so much more expensive to rebrand a higher-end Toyota into a Lexus, just like the Harrier to the Toyota Venza Hybrid which already looks fantastic on the outside?

What features in a Lexus are lacking in a Toyota besides the Lexus TVD and massage seats and the L instead of a T? :)


Is this a more crude, primitive type of brake-based torque vectoring?

Venza’s handling is bolstered by an electronically controlled brake system featuring Active Cornering Assist (ACA), which engages the stability control to reduce understeer in certain cornering situations. The driver feels only the enhanced agility, not the system’s operation.
 
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