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peterharvey
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They like to keep everyone thinking & on edge - just like the plot of a good movie?
The main car of the Corolla line-up but it's the last one to be unveiled. Saving the best for last?
TheNerdyPotato
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I asked about the Corolla sedan before and it's supposed to be coming out next year.
honestly, not sure why are they even showing wagon now, when it goes on sale in 6-7 months. Sedan is likely going on sale year later so it makes little sense to show it that much ahead.
maiaramdan
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So the V8 Hybrid for the next LX, Sequoia Tundra and top range NA market LC300 that I heard may turning out to be true
What's your opinion on this?
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...us-technology-with-china-sets-a-bad-precedent
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...us-technology-with-china-sets-a-bad-precedent
maiaramdan
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So what
Toyota gave its hybrid tech. before to Nissan, Ford & VAG
So nothing new here, the next step for Toyota is the solid state, the geared CVT, the Hybrid AWD & the Fuel Cell, which they are secretly doing the R&D tasks plus the next generation hybrid
All of the above will not be shared with anyone in the near future
Toyota gave its hybrid tech. before to Nissan, Ford & VAG
So nothing new here, the next step for Toyota is the solid state, the geared CVT, the Hybrid AWD & the Fuel Cell, which they are secretly doing the R&D tasks plus the next generation hybrid
All of the above will not be shared with anyone in the near future
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A typical anti-China propaganda filled with disinformation. Toyota is not sharing its latest hybrid drivetrain with Geely, but the Prius IV generation THS also used by the Corolla Hybrid (and even that is something the entire Chinese auto industry drooling over). In this way Toyota gets a better bargaining chip to gain access to better local EV suppliers (their current suppliers are terrible) and more favors for its FCVs. And by partnering with a local powerhouse Toyota gets to strengthen its EV ecosystem.
GM already transferred its twin-motor power-split hybrid system to SAIC's Roewe division. So did FCA. Power-split hybrid is nothing new anymore. Geely just got the better, more reliable, and cheaper version and that's it.
Toyota made a deal. China can't simply put a gun to a foreigner's head and ask for technology transfer. That's just not how it works.
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If Toyota can seriously strengthen their stance in China, I'm all for it. Can't let VW and GM have all the fun.
Carmaker1
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Regarding TNGA-F and some Toyota models, there is major news via source at CL within the 2019 Highlander thread. The person in question works for Toyota, but some of the information is muddled regarding timeline.
I already knew about the 2020 Tacoma facelift and 2023 redesign in 4 years time. I didn't know about a possible diesel, which does not make sense if it is not going on TNGA-F for 4 years.
Tundra will apparently have a diesel and debut F. Sequoia will be redesigned off of it the following calendar year. From what I read, Tundra was supposed to enter production on August 3, 2020 then people rumored 2019, yet now that is being referred to "in 2020".
People need to do a better job at clarifying what they're referring to.
I am pedantic about application of model years, as using "in 2020" should refer to the actual year of release and not be in reference to the model year which spans more than one calendar year.
It is obtuse to refer to model years in that manner, as they are merely marketing derived designations and not timeline based. The exception is the 2018 LS 500 in February 2018, but typically most new releases this year were 2019 models.
An OEM could easily debut a 2021 model at the LA Auto Show in November 2018, start production in October 2019, and release it in January 2020. Yet, is someone in retrospect going to be credible if they claim it was "released in 2021", merely based on the model year? That would be pitifully ridiculous, yet it happens all the time and confuses people. (See 2002 SC430 vs Tokyo 1999 reveal)
I don't know if the idea a new Tundra is due next year is factual. I can buy a Q1/Spring 2020 release at earliest. There are no prototypes to be seen and it's debuting TNGA F. Even the LC and LS were seen field testing 16-20 months before SOP. The LC debuted GA-L, caught in full shape by July 2015, production began in March 2017.
A new 4Runner isn't happening for 4 years at least, yet I keep seeing a select few refer to the facelift next year as a TNGA redesign. I ask myself, is it the case of a source, being a little lost between a heavy update (2015 Camry exterior) vs. a ground-up redesign (2018 Camry)? I also said the same thing in 2014 about the 2016 LX being a facelift and not "all-new".
Also, one person claims a new 4Runner is due in late 2020 as MY2021 (questionable), after participating in a Dallas area consumer clinic. He even said 3 years out, which is mathematically incorrect (2018 to 2020 isn't "3 years out").
I have mostly stuck by a fall 2020 launch for a new Tundra, meaning a new Sequoia in 2021 for MY 2022. Equaling a 14-year run. Apparently there was supposed to be an updated 150 range (4Runner/GX) for North America this year as MY2019, but they were pushed back to MY2020 next summer.
The Tundra diesel engine is what many of you will be interested in and new 6 cylinder.
I already knew about the 2020 Tacoma facelift and 2023 redesign in 4 years time. I didn't know about a possible diesel, which does not make sense if it is not going on TNGA-F for 4 years.
Tundra will apparently have a diesel and debut F. Sequoia will be redesigned off of it the following calendar year. From what I read, Tundra was supposed to enter production on August 3, 2020 then people rumored 2019, yet now that is being referred to "in 2020".
People need to do a better job at clarifying what they're referring to.
I am pedantic about application of model years, as using "in 2020" should refer to the actual year of release and not be in reference to the model year which spans more than one calendar year.
It is obtuse to refer to model years in that manner, as they are merely marketing derived designations and not timeline based. The exception is the 2018 LS 500 in February 2018, but typically most new releases this year were 2019 models.
An OEM could easily debut a 2021 model at the LA Auto Show in November 2018, start production in October 2019, and release it in January 2020. Yet, is someone in retrospect going to be credible if they claim it was "released in 2021", merely based on the model year? That would be pitifully ridiculous, yet it happens all the time and confuses people. (See 2002 SC430 vs Tokyo 1999 reveal)
I don't know if the idea a new Tundra is due next year is factual. I can buy a Q1/Spring 2020 release at earliest. There are no prototypes to be seen and it's debuting TNGA F. Even the LC and LS were seen field testing 16-20 months before SOP. The LC debuted GA-L, caught in full shape by July 2015, production began in March 2017.
A new 4Runner isn't happening for 4 years at least, yet I keep seeing a select few refer to the facelift next year as a TNGA redesign. I ask myself, is it the case of a source, being a little lost between a heavy update (2015 Camry exterior) vs. a ground-up redesign (2018 Camry)? I also said the same thing in 2014 about the 2016 LX being a facelift and not "all-new".
Also, one person claims a new 4Runner is due in late 2020 as MY2021 (questionable), after participating in a Dallas area consumer clinic. He even said 3 years out, which is mathematically incorrect (2018 to 2020 isn't "3 years out").
I have mostly stuck by a fall 2020 launch for a new Tundra, meaning a new Sequoia in 2021 for MY 2022. Equaling a 14-year run. Apparently there was supposed to be an updated 150 range (4Runner/GX) for North America this year as MY2019, but they were pushed back to MY2020 next summer.
The Tundra diesel engine is what many of you will be interested in and new 6 cylinder.
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Interesting developments! Thanks for sharing as always. Can we assume because both the 4Runner and Tacoma are getting facelifts in the next year or two that they will get an all new engine (hopefully the V35 or variant)? I can’t imagine they would refresh the Tacoma with the same underpowered current motor. I sure hope the 4runner receives something substantial o er and above what it got in 2014
Carmaker1
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When the 4Runner was updated in 2013 (not 2014)*, it was actually a last try at the model nameplate and intended to be a swan song to some degree. By December 2014, Toyota had no plans to redesign it all, despite massive sale increases for it from late 2013 to December 2014.
They probably decided to change their minds during 2015 on the 4Runner and of course that will take years to get results. The changes in autumn 2013, were started on in 2010 and likely signed off in early 2012. By comparison this was on schedule for MY2019, but pushed back maybe 9 months. So 2015-2018 development became 2015-19.
The model years 2014-2017 have been a big hit, despite so many people complaining online about the non-Limited 4Runner fascia, when the market wants it more than the version sold between October 2009 and late 2013.
I'm not entirely sure about a new engine so soon for MY2020, but if Toyota deems it feasible why not? Considering how the 2GR-FKS is shared between differing architectures (K and New N platform against GA-K and GA-L)
*Again, as pedantic as I am being, it is very important to refer accurately to model's literal inception date and not figurative description in the form of its model year. The last update to the 4Runner was in September 2013 (MY 2014), not "in 2014". MYs are not literal and to stay on the same page, most people should be literal.
I found that important to point out, as "in 2014" gives the impression that's when it came out and truthfully, a shorter time difference compared to the glaring 5 years of no major changes so far. It makes things very confusing if you are referring to 2014 without following "in 2014" with "model year" (ie 2014 MY, 2014 model year, MY 2014) . 2014 is a titling, versus 2013 the year in question the N280 II was first produced and released. Things like this are why I am not even sure when the next Tundra is coming out, if the source is mixing up calendar years and model years, when I care more about when I'll see it and not its obscure titling.
They probably decided to change their minds during 2015 on the 4Runner and of course that will take years to get results. The changes in autumn 2013, were started on in 2010 and likely signed off in early 2012. By comparison this was on schedule for MY2019, but pushed back maybe 9 months. So 2015-2018 development became 2015-19.
The model years 2014-2017 have been a big hit, despite so many people complaining online about the non-Limited 4Runner fascia, when the market wants it more than the version sold between October 2009 and late 2013.
I'm not entirely sure about a new engine so soon for MY2020, but if Toyota deems it feasible why not? Considering how the 2GR-FKS is shared between differing architectures (K and New N platform against GA-K and GA-L)
*Again, as pedantic as I am being, it is very important to refer accurately to model's literal inception date and not figurative description in the form of its model year. The last update to the 4Runner was in September 2013 (MY 2014), not "in 2014". MYs are not literal and to stay on the same page, most people should be literal.
I found that important to point out, as "in 2014" gives the impression that's when it came out and truthfully, a shorter time difference compared to the glaring 5 years of no major changes so far. It makes things very confusing if you are referring to 2014 without following "in 2014" with "model year" (ie 2014 MY, 2014 model year, MY 2014) . 2014 is a titling, versus 2013 the year in question the N280 II was first produced and released. Things like this are why I am not even sure when the next Tundra is coming out, if the source is mixing up calendar years and model years, when I care more about when I'll see it and not its obscure titling.
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Carmaker1
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In fact, I even remember that there were plans to not even redesign the 4Runner for the 5th generation and the 2GX as well. Typically a new model will be introduced in October or September, but the 2GX launch was shoved back into mid-model year in January 2010 as a 2010 model, with production beginning in November 2009. Why? Last minute decision making.
According to @Gecko, in 2006 they were not sure about redesigning it nor the 4Runner, but by August 2008, it was now being shown at the national dealer conference. The 150 Prado body was already designed by early 2007 and frozen by September 2007 (when both Prado & GX 470 got refreshes), while the 4Runner and GX were hanging in the balance.
I can imagine a very brief design process for the 2GX in 2007, with final approval in Q3 of 2007 and engineering design freeze in Q1 2008, ahead of Q4 2009 SOP for Q1 2010 launch. Compare that short time to the design work spent on J120 Lexus from late 90s til 2000.
When have they ever been firmly committed to this model line? Certainly not when the Gen 1 Highlander was really supposed to be the Toyota 4Runner replacement, approved in November 1998 as such. I have design photos from 1997, 1998, and 1999 saying as much. Toyota refreshed the 4Runner for MY 1999 in late 1998, expecting to redesign it in late 2000 on the new front wheel drive K platform. Somehow that changed in 1999. Did the Sequoia affect this? (2001 Sequoia design was finished in 1997)
Toyota didn't work on styling the Gen 4 4Runner as a BOF offering, until early 1999 almost midway through the 120-Series programme (commenced in 1997). They finished designing the Gen 4 N210 4Runner around mid-2000 and filed N210 design patents in April 2001, looking no different in those patent photos than your average 2003 4Runner Limited. I also have design photos from both programs on the 2003 MY 4Runner and 120 series Prado.
As (industry) typical*, the 3rd generation 4Runner received another minor refresh in the fall of 2000 as a 2001 model, in parallel to sign off of the newly approved Generation 4 design.
My angle with this is, that the Land Cruiser Prado has always had the beloved attention of Toyota, yet they're always hesitant regarding the 4Runner and GX.
*Industry typical refers to when major changes or aesthetic improvements are made to an existing model, while the company works on starting production development or finishing off final styling of the replacement. The chunk of a model budget is implemented at the point of styling sign-off, to properly engineer years of research or pre-development work into a running and manufacturing feasible production automobile.
Thus, it is important to launch a major update to the existing generation first budget-wise, which explains why the same year a facelift goes on sale, you may learn that next generation model also had final design choices made or started full development. This does vary between OEMs or same brand models, as some refreshes will deliberately be designed to preview elements of the next generation or evolve into (than vice-versa).
According to @Gecko, in 2006 they were not sure about redesigning it nor the 4Runner, but by August 2008, it was now being shown at the national dealer conference. The 150 Prado body was already designed by early 2007 and frozen by September 2007 (when both Prado & GX 470 got refreshes), while the 4Runner and GX were hanging in the balance.
I can imagine a very brief design process for the 2GX in 2007, with final approval in Q3 of 2007 and engineering design freeze in Q1 2008, ahead of Q4 2009 SOP for Q1 2010 launch. Compare that short time to the design work spent on J120 Lexus from late 90s til 2000.
When have they ever been firmly committed to this model line? Certainly not when the Gen 1 Highlander was really supposed to be the Toyota 4Runner replacement, approved in November 1998 as such. I have design photos from 1997, 1998, and 1999 saying as much. Toyota refreshed the 4Runner for MY 1999 in late 1998, expecting to redesign it in late 2000 on the new front wheel drive K platform. Somehow that changed in 1999. Did the Sequoia affect this? (2001 Sequoia design was finished in 1997)
Toyota didn't work on styling the Gen 4 4Runner as a BOF offering, until early 1999 almost midway through the 120-Series programme (commenced in 1997). They finished designing the Gen 4 N210 4Runner around mid-2000 and filed N210 design patents in April 2001, looking no different in those patent photos than your average 2003 4Runner Limited. I also have design photos from both programs on the 2003 MY 4Runner and 120 series Prado.
As (industry) typical*, the 3rd generation 4Runner received another minor refresh in the fall of 2000 as a 2001 model, in parallel to sign off of the newly approved Generation 4 design.
My angle with this is, that the Land Cruiser Prado has always had the beloved attention of Toyota, yet they're always hesitant regarding the 4Runner and GX.
*Industry typical refers to when major changes or aesthetic improvements are made to an existing model, while the company works on starting production development or finishing off final styling of the replacement. The chunk of a model budget is implemented at the point of styling sign-off, to properly engineer years of research or pre-development work into a running and manufacturing feasible production automobile.
Thus, it is important to launch a major update to the existing generation first budget-wise, which explains why the same year a facelift goes on sale, you may learn that next generation model also had final design choices made or started full development. This does vary between OEMs or same brand models, as some refreshes will deliberately be designed to preview elements of the next generation or evolve into (than vice-versa).
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Joaquin Ruhi
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@Carmaker1 : Please help me (and us) fully grasp and understand what is going on here. Based on your previous posts on these forums, earlier this year I had put together this timeline for the TNGA-F platform (and I can be pretty pedantic myself):
300-Series LAND CRUISER: This Lexus LX twin is expected to launch the TNGA-F BOF architecture. Launches no earlier than late 2018, probably later than that. 2020 or 2021 Model Year most likely scenario.
4th-gen Lexus LX: Enters production in July 2020 as 2021 model year.
2nd-gen TUNDRA: Program code 954A. Enters production on August 3, 2020, for the 2021 model year.
6th-gen 4RUNNER: If 2019 Model Year sees a heavy facelift for current 5th-gen, then next-gen should debut for 2022 Model Year.
3rd-gen Lexus GX: If 2020 Model Year sees a heavy facelift for current 3rd-gen, then next-gen should debut for 2023 Model Year.
3rd-gen TACOMA: Begins production in July/August 2022 for 2023 model year.
Now come a few questions and comments:
300-Series LAND CRUISER: This Lexus LX twin is expected to launch the TNGA-F BOF architecture. Launches no earlier than late 2018, probably later than that. 2020 or 2021 Model Year most likely scenario.
4th-gen Lexus LX: Enters production in July 2020 as 2021 model year.
2nd-gen TUNDRA: Program code 954A. Enters production on August 3, 2020, for the 2021 model year.
6th-gen 4RUNNER: If 2019 Model Year sees a heavy facelift for current 5th-gen, then next-gen should debut for 2022 Model Year.
3rd-gen Lexus GX: If 2020 Model Year sees a heavy facelift for current 3rd-gen, then next-gen should debut for 2023 Model Year.
3rd-gen TACOMA: Begins production in July/August 2022 for 2023 model year.
Now come a few questions and comments:
I was under the impression that Land Cruiser 300 / 4th-gen Lexus LX were debuting (TN)GA-F. If, instead, Tundra debuts TNGA-F, does this mean LC300/LX have been pushed back slightly?
We now know that 2019 4Runner is virtually unchanged. If 6th-gen 4Runner "isn't happening for 4 years at least" then it seems like MY2020 facelift for current model and 2023 model year for TNGA-F 4Runner, correct?
Thanks for the Sequoia commentary.
Which is perplexing, since the Prado, the 4Runner, and the GX should be consolidated under one common platform with only exterior styling changes. It is something they should have done since 2000.
Was the decision to cancel 4Runner in early 2000s caused by the Kluger/Highlander? During that period the industry in general was looking to unibody construction and transverse AWD platform to replace "outdated/inefficient" BOF with longitudinal 4x4 for utility applications. And with Toyota's highly eco-aware strategy in early 2000s, it shouldn't come as a surprise they planned to completely cancel the 4Runner in favor of the Highlander.
Carmaker1
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You're welcome!
Carmaker1
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Exactly, but even a decade ago, the 4Runner got V8 and a facelift in 2005, while the others only got small updates until 2007.
As we can see, now the Prado, gets all the engine updates and improvements on time, while the Lexus and 4Runner linger on.
The 2001 Highlander went into development in 1996, montths after the 96 MY 4Runner redesign and K platform planning began in 1995. By late 1997, they were almost done designing it. Trademark was filed on December 5, 1997. They finished styling the Highlander in the spring of 1998, just a few months before 4Runner mid-cycle update (MY 1999).
At the time, they were also releasing new Land Cruiser 100 (in dev since 1991) and finishing up '01 Sequoia for 2000 introduction (off of 1999 Tundra). (Have photos of 2001 MY Sequoia from March 1998). I can imagine they felt BOF for the top models was enough and to go unibody for higher volume models. Did this resurface again in the mid-2000s and early-2010s? They decided in 2015 to update them again in 2018-19, but a redesign isn't possible until 2022.