Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[CIF]

it is going to be that rumored 2.4/2.5l turbo engine... and those 2 others are V8's.

That engine will slot into the chart between the M20A and A25A. I was talking about the other mystery engine on the chart between the A25A and V35A that is bigger in displacement that the A25A.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

That engine will slot into the chart between the M20A and A25A. I was talking about the other mystery engine on the chart between the A25A and V35A that is bigger in displacement that the A25A.

It could be either that the 2.5T is the bigger engine with an unannounced new 2.0T being the smaller one. Or, it could be a new NA 2.7 4cyl for the Tacoma. That thing is about as outdated as the 1UR in the Tundra.

 

[CIF]

It could be either that the 2.5T is the bigger engine with an unannounced new 2.0T being the smaller one. Or, it could be a new NA 2.7 4cyl for the Tacoma. That thing is about as outdated as the 1UR in the Tundra.

The chart clearly is sorted by displacement for the engines. Whether an engine has turbos or not is irrelevant to the chart. If the rumored engine ends up as a 2.5L, it makes zero sense for it to be listed as a separate engine on the chart. That would simply mean it's a turbo version of the A25A. If it's a 2.4L turbo, then that would be a separate engine from the A25A. Likewise a 2.0L turbo engine wouldn't make sense to be listed as a separate engine on the chart, because again that would simply be a turbo version of the M20A.

If you're implying Toyota would use different architectures for any supposed 2.5L turbo or 2.0L turbo then that doesn't not make sense at all and is contrary to the TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy. Look at the chart carefully again. It confirms a total of 9 Dynamic Force engines, and 17 variants. A 2.5L turbo or new 2.0L turbo would be simply variants of already debuted Dynamic Force engines. Only a 2.4L turbo would be considered as a separate engine, since no 2.4L Dynamic Force engine has debuted.

So therefore, the only logical conclusion here is that all other yet to be revealed Dynamic Force engines on the chart MUST all be of different displacements to each other, and of different displacements to the Dynamic Force engines revealed so far. This is fundamental to TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy.

 

[spwolf]

It could be either that the 2.5T is the bigger engine with an unannounced new 2.0T being the smaller one. Or, it could be a new NA 2.7 4cyl for the Tacoma. That thing is about as outdated as the 1UR in the Tundra.

@CIF yeah, i also think 2.5t is that engine.

between 2.0l and 2.5l might be many different possibilities. I am not sure the chart does not show approximation based on hp, ie like 300h vs 250h.
And I am not sure if they will fit reworked 2.0t into that chart, I am thinking they wont.

 

[spwolf]

So therefore, the only logical conclusion here is that all other yet to be revealed Dynamic Force engines on the chart MUST all be of different displacements to each other, and of different displacements to the Dynamic Force engines revealed so far. This is fundamental to TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy.

I dont think chart itself and placement of engines are fundamental to TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy. They can simply consider changes large enough to call it a different engine. Which is likely what is happening here.

 

[CIF]

I dont think chart itself and placement of engines are fundamental to TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy. They can simply consider changes large enough to call it a different engine. Which is likely what is happening here.

I don't have time to post all the links, but go through Toyota's Global newsroom and look at all the technical documents from Toyota's powertrain department. They very clearly outline the philosophy of Dynamic Force going in line with TNGA is less waste, less redundancy, more efficient use of resources and architectures, and more modularization. A slightly reworked A25A or slightly reworked M20A will not be considered a new engine. The technical documents from Toyota's powertrain department make it clear that Dynamic Force fundamentally comprises a number of base engine architectures (9 engines) and a number of variants stemming from those base architectures (17 variants). To save resources, all Dynamic Force engines use a common basic engine architecture philosophy but then each engine architecture gets a number of changes based on need. From there variants like turbocharged versions stem out. If a major reworking of the A25A or M20A includes a displacement change, well yes then that would be considered a different engine under the Dynamic Force family.

This would be like saying the 2GR-FKS should be named under a different engine family than the 2GR-FE or 2GR-FSE. These variants have a number of moderate changes inside of them, yet they are not major enough to be called a different engine family, they are all part of the same engine family.

This is Toyota's philosophy on TNGA and Dynamic Force. I know what I know because I've looked at all the public technical documents from the powertrain department. Whether you wish to believe this or not is up to you.

The chart itself is not fundamental, but there is a very logical order to the chart and what is or isn't considered a new Dynamic Force engine the chart makes fairly clear.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

The chart clearly is sorted by displacement for the engines. Whether an engine has turbos or not is irrelevant to the chart. If the rumored engine ends up as a 2.5L, it makes zero sense for it to be listed as a separate engine on the chart. That would simply mean it's a turbo version of the A25A.

...Likewise a 2.0L turbo engine wouldn't make sense to be listed as a separate engine on the chart, because again that would simply be a turbo version of the M20A.

...Look at the chart carefully again. It confirms a total of 9 Dynamic Force engines, and 17 variants. A 2.5L turbo or new 2.0L turbo would be simply variants of already debuted Dynamic Force engines...

...A slightly reworked A25A or slightly reworked M20A will not be considered a new engine. The technical documents from Toyota's powertrain department make it clear that Dynamic Force fundamentally comprises a number of base engine architectures (9 engines) and a number of variants stemming from those base architectures (17 variants). To save resources, all Dynamic Force engines use a common basic engine architecture philosophy but then each engine architecture gets a number of changes based on need. From there variants like turbocharged versions stem out. If a major reworking of the A25A or M20A includes a displacement change, well yes then that would be considered a different engine under the Dynamic Force family.

This would be like saying the 2GR-FKS should be named under a different engine family than the 2GR-FE or 2GR-FSE. These variants have a number of moderate changes inside of them, yet they are not major enough to be called a different engine family, they are all part of the same engine family.

I wholeheartedly, 100% agree with this. VERY well said.

If it's a 2.4L turbo, then that would be a separate engine from the A25A...

Only a 2.4L turbo would be considered as a separate engine, since no 2.4L Dynamic Force engine has debuted.

Here, on the other hand, I might beg to differ. It so happens that the M20A, A25A and V35A Dynamic Force engines have, thus far, only been released in a single displacement. But what if the rumored 2.4-liter turbo is nothing more than a boosted version of the A25A with thicker cylinder liners (to better withstand the added pressures of turbocharging) that effectively reduce its displacement to 2.4-liters? Wouldn't it still be part of the AxxA engine family?

This happened with the 2nd-gen Audi A6, whose 2.8-liter naturally aspirated V6 was downsized slightly to a 2.7 when turbocharged.

I was talking about the other mystery engine on the chart between the A25A and V35A that is bigger in displacement that the A25A.

It could be a new NA 2.7 4cyl for the Tacoma. That thing is about as outdated as the 1UR in the Tundra.

I agree that a replacement for the ancient TR truck engine family (current offered in 1TR-FE 2-liter and 2TR-FE 2.7-liter guises) in most of Toyota's body-on-frame models worldwide is the likeliest engine to slot between the A25A and V35A engines.

As to the 2 yet-to-be-released engines above the V35A, I just don't see 2 separate V6 or V8 engine families. Currently, pre-Dynamic Force V6s are down to a single GR engine family (in displacements from 2.5 to 4 liters) and V8s to a single UR family (in displacements from 4.6 to 5.7 liters). My best guess for the two slots above the V35A V6 is a new Dynamic Force V8 family to replace UR and a Dynamic Force Diesel to replace the 1VD-FTV 4.5-liter diesel V8 in a number of Land Cruisers and Lexus LXs.

Yes, I know that Toyota is discontinuing the diesel option for its cars and crossovers, but there appears to be a need for a large diesel option for body-on-frame vehicles. Notably, the official TNGA/Dynamic Force Toyota news releases and documents (like CIF, I've read them all) are silent on the subject of a potential Dynamic Force diesel.

 

[carguy420]

Toyota has released some info to the media in Ireland...
- 2019 Corolla will have 1.6l petrol engine for Europe, together with hybrid from Prius of course. This is first time I have heard of 1.6l in TNGA vehicles, so it is likely to be all new?
- New hybrid vehicle unveil on September 3rd for Europe. Toyota France announced new factory expansion for next-gen Yaris and new model. I assume it is smaller than C-HR SUV, based on next gen Yaris platform. It might also introduce new smaller hybrid system as well as that new 1.6l?

Where did you find this sweet info? I'm searching high and low but still can't find anything.

Edit : Is the 1.6l for this Euro-spec Corolla naturally aspirated or turbocharged? No offence but I'm just too curious.

 

[spwolf]

Where did you find this sweet info? I'm searching high and low but still can't find anything.

search toyota corolla ireland, you will get it.

 

[spwolf]

I agree that a replacement for the ancient TR truck engine family (current offered in 1TR-FE 2-liter and 2TR-FE 2.7-liter guises) in most of Toyota's body-on-frame models worldwide is the likeliest engine to slot between the A25A and V35A engines.

As to the 2 yet-to-be-released engines above the V35A, I just don't see 2 separate V6 or V8 engine families. Currently, pre-Dynamic Force V6s are down to a single GR engine family (in displacements from 2.5 to 4 liters) and V8s to a single UR family (in displacements from 4.6 to 5.7 liters). My best guess for the two slots above the V35A V6 is a new Dynamic Force V8 family to replace UR and a Dynamic Force Diesel to replace the 1VD-FTV 4.5-liter diesel V8 in a number of Land Cruisers and Lexus LXs.

Yes, I know that Toyota is discontinuing the diesel option for its cars and crossovers, but there appears to be a need for a large diesel option for body-on-frame vehicles. Notably, the official TNGA/Dynamic Force Toyota news releases and documents (like CIF, I've read them all) are silent on the subject of a potential Dynamic Force diesel.

I would think variation of 2.5l would end up in those trucks. This is what they likely mean for variations - small changes to suit different vehicles. Like that 3.5tt for Land Cruiser 300. Keep in mind that Toyota called 8AR-FTS "new engine", not variation of AR block.

And I very much doubt there will be new V8 diesel, even Europeans are abandoning them and new one would be needed for those EU markets where Toyota V8 diesel sales are tiny, where regulations just got much tougher from 2019 and where Toyota just abandoned diesels in most of the classes. It will simply be much better Toyota to do a proper hybrid for trucks.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Where did you find this sweet info? I'm searching high and low but still can't find anything.

search toyota corolla ireland, you will get it.

What I did find this morning was a Toyota UK Media site release announcing the end of Auris badging for Europe in favor of Corolla, and the official unveiling of the Corolla Touring Sports wagon at the 2018 Paris Motor Show in an October 2 press conference. Not a word there about the new 1.6-liter petrol engine.

Following spwolf's advice did lead me to an Irish Times article citing the 1.6-liter petrol engine option.

 

[carguy420]

But the site just says "1.6l petrol engine", no other details at all and Toyota didn't officially announce it as a new Dynamic Force engine.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

But the site just says "1.6l petrol engine", no other details at all and Toyota didn't officially announce it as a new Dynamic Force engine.

True, but I'll bet anything that it's the unidentified Dynamic Force engine that sits just below the M20A. I strongly suspect that it's naturally aspirated. Hopefully, we'll know the answers on October 2.

 

[carguy420]

True, but I'll bet anything that it's the unidentified Dynamic Force engine that sits just below the M20A. I strongly suspect that it's naturally aspirated. Hopefully, we'll know the answers on October 2.

Yep, I'm interested. I actually want this engine to be available in their upcoming TNGA subcompacts, I know slightly wishful thinking.

 

[MOBLIN]

True, but I'll bet anything that it's the unidentified Dynamic Force engine that sits just below the M20A. I strongly suspect that it's naturally aspirated. Hopefully, we'll know the answers on October 2.

What is happening on October 2nd?

 

[spwolf]

True, but I'll bet anything that it's the unidentified Dynamic Force engine that sits just below the M20A. I strongly suspect that it's naturally aspirated. Hopefully, we'll know the answers on October 2.

October 2nd is Corolla Touring Sports (wagon) reveal on Paris show... it will not have 1.6l option pretty much for sure. I hope it will because 1.2t is very expensive engine and NA 1.6l in same vein as excellent 1.5l they released for Yaris is great. In non EU countries there is Auris 1.6l with older ZR Valvematic engine and it is $1.5k cheaper than 1.2t version... it is a lot for a car that starts at $20k. Lots of buyers just want base engine that does not spend much fuel and is good around city.

On the other hand Corolla sedan, is not going to have Euro specific version, so it will come with 1.6l petrol and 1.8l hybrid. Corolla Sport/Touring Sports will be Euro centered and have 1.2t, 1.8l hybrid and 2.0l hybrid.

 

[spwolf]

Yep, I'm interested. I actually want this engine to be available in their upcoming TNGA subcompacts, I know slightly wishful thinking.

I think TNGA subcompacts will get than 1.5l NR that was released last year, it is a cracking engine, low consumption and decent power, it is very nice in Yaris and great replacement for 1.33.

 

[carguy420]

I think TNGA subcompacts will get than 1.5l NR that was released last year, it is a cracking engine, low consumption and decent power, it is very nice in Yaris and great replacement for 1.33.

But is the 1.5l 2NR with the ESTEC package currently only available in Europe? Because the 2NR in southeast Asia doesn't have it. Does the ESTEC package give it a decent improvement?

Edit : I hoped that the TNGA subcompacts can get the 1.6l as an option is because the Koreans are offering 1.6l engines in their subcompacts.

 

[spwolf]

But is the 1.5l 2NR with the ESTEC package currently only available in Europe? Because the 2NR in southeast Asia doesn't have it. Does the ESTEC package give it a decent improvement?

Edit : I hoped that the TNGA subcompacts can get the 1.6l as an option is because the Koreans are offering 1.6l engines in their subcompacts.

Yes, it is good engine... very low consumption, good driving characteristics. It is only available since last euro Yaris facelift last year and I assume reason it is not available everywhere in this form might be both quality of fuel and price of the engine.

 

[spwolf]

- New hybrid vehicle unveil on September 3rd for Europe. Toyota France announced new factory expansion for next-gen Yaris and new model. I assume it is smaller than C-HR SUV, based on next gen Yaris platform. It might also introduce new smaller hybrid system as well as that new 1.6l?

Today news came out that Toyota has registered trademark for Corolla Cross. This would be likely version for that "4th new hybrid this year" that Toyota Ireland talked to journalists about. So no Yaris based SUV/CUV, yet?

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news...-may-be-on-the-way-after-trademark-filed.html