Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[Joaquin Ruhi]

@Carmaker1 : So if you had to put Land Cruiser 300, 4th-gen Lexus LX and 2nd-gen Tundra in 1-2-3 order to launch the TNGA-F architecture, what would the precise order be?

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

So, based on Carmaker1's latest info, here's an updated roadmap to the TNGA-F body-on-frame architecture launch schedule (also fixing some generation-naming errors in my original):

300-Series LAND CRUISER: This Lexus LX twin may launch the TNGA-F BOF architecture. Launches within 2020 calendar year (2021 Model Year).

4th-gen Lexus LX: Enters production in July (or August/September) 2020 as Model Year 2021.

3rd-gen TUNDRA: Program code 954A. Enters production on August 3, 2020, for the 2021 model year. It may launch earlier, however, and may be first TNGA-F product instead of Land Cruiser 300/Lexus LX.

3rd-gen SEQUOIA: 2021 calendar year for 2022 model year

6th-gen 4RUNNER: 2020 MY heavy facelift for current 5th-gen, then next-gen TNGA-F should debut for 2023 MY.

3rd-gen Lexus GX: 2020 MY heavy facelift for current 2nd-gen, then next-gen TNGA-F should debut for 2023 MY.

4th-gen TACOMA: 2020 MY facelift for current 3rd-gen. Next-gen TNGA-F begins production in August/September 2022 as MY 2023.

In other words, there will be a first wave of Land Cruiser 300, Lexus 4LX and Tundra3 for the 2021 model year, then Sequoia for 2022MY and a second wave of 6th-gen 4Runner, Lexus 3GX and Tacoma4 for the 2023MY.

 

[Gecko]

I have mentioned this a few times, but with the consolidation of some product lines elsewhere in the lineup, I expect 4Runner, GX and Prado to become one very closely related model with minor differences once they move to TNGA-F. I can even see Prado/4Runner being the same vehicle with only regional differences, and GX, for once, being the model that gets a significantly different aesthetic.

 

[spwolf]

I have mentioned this a few times, but with the consolidation of some product lines elsewhere in the lineup, I expect 4Runner, GX and Prado to become one very closely related model with minor differences once they move to TNGA-F. I can even see Prado/4Runner being the same vehicle with only regional differences, and GX, for once, being the model that gets a significantly different aesthetic.

There is very little chance of that, as Prado is specifically made to be more expensive vehicle than 4Runner... It is not an accident that they are very different vehicles... For instance Prado costs up to $80k in Europe.

But it would be cool if they offer 4Runner in more markets.

 

[ssun30]

There is very little chance of that, as Prado is specifically made to be more expensive vehicle than 4Runner... It is not an accident that they are very different vehicles... For instance Prado costs up to $80k in Europe.

But it would be cool if they offer 4Runner in more markets.

Base Prado is very affordable. In China the price is close to a comparatively equipped Highlander. Things only get expensive when you go into the fancy 4x4 stuff . In U.S. 4Runner is generally slightly more expensive than the Highlander so pricing shouldn't be the concern here.

It takes more effort to engineer the 'warzone ready' Prado. Its durability will be an overkill for the 4Runner. However when their engineering resources are spread so thin, consolidating the two projects should be beneficial on corporate level. In the end they can just set different margin and rejection rates for the 'military grade' and 'consumer grade' Prados/4Runners. Actually it's a thing they are already doing: Middle East-spec and Africa-spec Prados are usually the highest quality batch while China/Japan/rest of the world get the rejects. For this exact reason Middle East-spec imports are highly sought after in China (making up 50% of total Prado sales) despite being 20% more expensive on average.

I can imagine they felt BOF for the top models was enough and to go unibody for higher volume models. Did this resurface again in the mid-2000s and early-2010s? They decided in 2015 to update them again in 2018-19, but a redesign isn't possible until 2022.

During the period the whole industry was swerving back and forth so I understand that Toyota really wanted to follow the trend and kill all but the top BoF model.

The Americans in general have switched to unibody and transverse AWD for most crossovers, including offroad-oriented models, in the past two decades. However their truck divisions operate independently of the passenger cars division and thus BoF and longitudinal 4x4 survived at the very top.

Mitsubishi was the first to prove the viability of a unibody offroad vehicle (V60/70 Pajero) although it was actually a hybrid between monocoque and ladder frame. Mitsubishi retained the longitudinal 4x4 layout, but the company is on its way to irrelevance anyway.

Honda became the first and only manufacturer to build a utility vehicle that is not only unibody (actually also a monocoque-ladder frame hybrid) but also transverse AWD. But the Ridgeline is not well received because of this exact reason. Too bad they should try to expand their crossover lineup with more 'adventure-oriented' models instead of going into the truck world and look like they don't know what they are doing.

JLR builds completely monocoque (no ladder frame elements) and longitudinal 4x4 offroad vehicles. But in the process they also completely ditched rear live axle and fully converted to independent suspension.

So really the history of utility/offroad vehicles is quite complicated in the 2000s and early 2010s as the industry in general isn't fully committed to ditching BoF. After the Depression there really wasn't a future for high volume BoF models anymore. Remember these were the heydays of hybrids and economy cars. BoF really made a comeback after the crossover boom and drop in oil prices (which is expected to stay low in the foreseeable future). So I understand there was a lot of confusion and indecision going on in Toyota.

 

[carguy420]

@ssun30 why Middle East and Africa are getting the high quality Prados while the rest of the world are getting rejects? That sounds ridiculous.

 

[ssun30]

@ssun30 why Middle East and Africa are getting the high quality Prados while the rest of the world are getting rejects? That sounds ridiculous.

Because a lot of customers in these regions are military, NGOs, and mining/oil companies (no they are not for the regular people). The 'rejects' are those that are not 'military grade', but still way above 'consumer grade'.

 

[spwolf]

Because a lot of customers in these regions are military, NGOs, and mining/oil companies (no they are not for the regular people). The 'rejects' are those that are not 'military grade', but still way above 'consumer grade'.

it does not work like that... there are no rejects, they are just produced in different spec.

As to the 4Runner and Prado, Prado with 4Runner equipment is going to be $10k more expensive vehicle.
It wont happen.

4Runner is not a luxury vehicle like Prado attempts to be and has to be to sell in most of its markets. That is why 4Runner exists, and why in other parts of the world, Fortuner exists.

 

[spwolf]

By far the most interesting part is that V6 Diesel... we need to focus on that.

With their new diesels in 2016, they engineered them to meet strictest future standards - they comply with both new Euro6x and Japanese emissions standards.

So I assume this new V6 turbo will be the same... now question is, what kind of cars are going to get it? Will it be mild hybrid or just start stop? And when will it be introduced?

I am sure it will be better engine that their V8 turbo diesel which I never liked. It should be lighter, more reliable while still maintaining similar hp/torque, or actually be stronger (at least in response)... not to mention to satisfy all future emission goals.

 

[ssun30]

it does not work like that... there are no rejects, they are just produced in different spec.

I should've said that way instead. 'Rejects' sounds like a lot of negativity while 'spec' is how the military grade gets separated from the consumer grade.

For the V6 diesel.
1)is it going to be a global engine? Are they introducing it for traditionally non-diesel markets as well?
2)is it being counted as part of the TNGA powertrain?

Also, since I'm less familiar with trucks in other parts of the world, here are two questions regarding truck engines:
1)what exactly is the weakness of the VD? whar makes them think it is necesary to do a new engine from scratch instead of keeping development of the VD?
2)what do Taco owners say about the 2GR-FKS? do they think it's a worthy upgrade over the 1GR? what is the possibility of the 4Runner and GX refresh replacing the 4.0 with 3.5?

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

2)what do Taco owners say about the 2GR-FKS? do they think it's a worthy upgrade over the 1GR? what is the possibility of the 4Runner and GX refresh replacing the 4.0 with 3.5?

From what I've read, it gets somewhat better MPG (about as good as the 2.7 4cyl), but it lacks low-end compared to the older, bigger motor. TMC tried to compensate with lowering the first 2 gears, but that only helps so much.

 

[spwolf]

I should've said that way instead. 'Rejects' sounds like a lot of negativity while 'spec' is how the military grade gets separated from the consumer grade.

For the V6 diesel.
1)is it going to be a global engine? Are they introducing it for traditionally non-diesel markets as well?
2)is it being counted as part of the TNGA powertrain?

Also, since I'm less familiar with trucks in other parts of the world, here are two questions regarding truck engines:
1)what exactly is the weakness of the VD? whar makes them think it is necesary to do a new engine from scratch instead of keeping development of the VD?
2)what do Taco owners say about the 2GR-FKS? do they think it's a worthy upgrade over the 1GR? what is the possibility of the 4Runner and GX refresh replacing the 4.0 with 3.5?

- specification - yes, there were always different specifications for Land Cruisers... we in EU dont need dual fuel filters, dual fuel tanks, desert dust protection and things like that... instead we get air suspension and other nice things. It specification and vehicles are built on it.
- V6 diesel will certainly be a global engine and will be made to follow strictest future emission regulations. VD was developed based on AD diesel engine, now more than 10 years old. It was a bad engine, probably one of the worst Toyota has ever made, and it can not meet emissions regulations. New GD for Prado can meet any future legislation it seems, it has no problems meeting all these new EU regulations, and they have no problems validating it against WLTP, unlike Germans which seem to have halted sales of many of their powertrains until validation (EU).
- Taco owners never liked new 2GR-FKS. It is hard to say what is valid criticism, as you know people on Toyota boards criticize everything, lol. Based on that, Taco is dead... instead it is best selling generation, they are doubling their sales since last gen. They will not replace 4.0l with 3.5l though.... if this new V6 td is coming, then it will be upgrade option.

 

[Gecko]

From what I have heard, 2GR-FKS + 8AT is coming to refreshed 4R and Tacoma. This will go over very poorly with enthusiasts, but to @spwolf's point, they complain about the 1GR as it is, so... you can't please everyone.

I have driven the Tacoma and I actually like the powertrain. It's somewhat hard to separate elements of the powertrain (engine vs transmission), but owning a 4Runner and having a lot of seat time in the Tacoma, I prefer the 1GR because it's torquier and has more grunt in stop-and-go traffic. But I'd gladly take the 6AT from the Tacoma, or better yet, an 8AT. 1GR mated to a 6 or 8AT would be great, but I think that for packaging purposes, 4Runner will just get 2GR-FKS and enthusiasts will be mad.

I will probably take it for a spin next year and see if I want to upgrade or not.

 

[spwolf]

From what I have heard, 2GR-FKS + 8AT is coming to refreshed 4R and Tacoma. This will go over very poorly with enthusiasts, but to @spwolf's point, they complain about the 1GR as it is, so... you can't please everyone.

I have driven the Tacoma and I actually like the powertrain. It's somewhat hard to separate elements of the powertrain (engine vs transmission), but owning a 4Runner and having a lot of seat time in the Tacoma, I prefer the 1GR because it's torquier and has more grunt in stop-and-go traffic. But I'd gladly take the 6AT from the Tacoma, or better yet, an 8AT. 1GR mated to a 6 or 8AT would be great, but I think that for packaging purposes, 4Runner will just get 2GR-FKS and enthusiasts will be mad.

I will probably take it for a spin next year and see if I want to upgrade or not.

you probably remember better, but did 2GR in new Tacoma bring better real life mpg compared to 1GR?

 

[Gecko]

you probably remember better, but did 2GR in new Tacoma bring better real life mpg compared to 1GR?

Indeed - about 1-1.5MPG on average.

 

[spwolf]

Indeed - about 1-1.5MPG on average.

do we know how it compares to other similar trucks real life mpg?

 

[Gecko]

do we know how it compares to other similar trucks real life mpg?

The only real competition here is the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon, both packing a 3.6L V6. Compared to those, the Tacoma is similar with ~19MPG on average. I haven't seen anything on the new Ranger, but I think it's packing only Ecoboost 4cylinder engines?

Nissan Frontier is ~17 - 17.5MPG, similar to old 1GR Tacoma.

 

[spwolf]

The only real competition here is the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon, both packing a 3.6L V6. Compared to those, the Tacoma is similar with ~19MPG on average. I haven't seen anything on the new Ranger, but I think it's packing only Ecoboost 4cylinder engines?

Nissan Frontier is ~17 - 17.5MPG, similar to old 1GR Tacoma.

seems reasonable then

 

[Brandon B]

From what I have heard, 2GR-FKS + 8AT is coming to refreshed 4R and Tacoma. This will go over very poorly with enthusiasts, but to @spwolf's point, they complain about the 1GR as it is, so... you can't please everyone.

I have driven the Tacoma and I actually like the powertrain. It's somewhat hard to separate elements of the powertrain (engine vs transmission), but owning a 4Runner and having a lot of seat time in the Tacoma, I prefer the 1GR because it's torquier and has more grunt in stop-and-go traffic. But I'd gladly take the 6AT from the Tacoma, or better yet, an 8AT. 1GR mated to a 6 or 8AT would be great, but I think that for packaging purposes, 4Runner will just get 2GR-FKS and enthusiasts will be mad.

I will probably take it for a spin next year and see if I want to upgrade or not.

From reading various feedback on the new Tacoma, doesnt it seem most of the negative reviews stem from the 6 speed transmission ( tuning of it)? If this is the case, perhaps the newer 8AT will solve this. Wishful thinking perhaps

 

[spwolf]

From reading various feedback on the new Tacoma, doesnt it seem most of the negative reviews stem from the 6 speed transmission ( tuning of it)? If this is the case, perhaps the newer 8AT will solve this. Wishful thinking perhaps

supposedly there were some updates to the transmission ecu that fixed all those issues, in the past 2 months or so.