corradoMR2
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Baby LS at half the cost? Looks like a home run!
Official 7th Generation ES Thread: Full Reveal on 4/25 in Beijing
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Baby LS at half the cost? Looks like a home run!
emptystreets130
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The ES is already on the Avalon platform since the current generation. They are virtually the same dimension and have the same powertrain.
https://web.archive.org/web/2012040...eveals-2013-es-new-hybrid-variant-120697.html
https://web.archive.org/web/2012040...eveals-2013-es-new-hybrid-variant-120697.html
Ian Schmidt
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A Camry-sized IS would indeed be pretty cool. A Camry-sized IS F with the TTV6 would be even cooler.
maiaramdan
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maiaramdan
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Agree on everything except that GS will take more resources than the ES
The GS will be simply on the GA-L as LS, GS, Century & Crown so the R&D cost will be distributed on all of those, I didn't even yet count the next Mark-X and the next RC/IS which 100% will have a shorter wheel base from the same chassis , and the number may grow if we add also the production model of the LF-1
maiaramdan
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@Ian Schmidt , @Gecko and everyone wants the IS to grow to the GS size
If the IS grows to Camry / GS dimensions so why the GS got deleted from the beginning?, and how we know that because of that grow the IS will have the same GS fate? !!!
If the IS grows to Camry / GS dimensions so why the GS got deleted from the beginning?, and how we know that because of that grow the IS will have the same GS fate? !!!
It's an interesting topic and I have a few points to share. But let's stick to ES for now and not digress too much.
TheNerdyPotato
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I basically just described a BMW 230i, didn't I?
Gecko
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I think it is a relevant discussion since the elimination of the GS and "upgrading" of the ES does shift things around for Lexus' entire sedan lineup. Without going too far off topic here, almost every generation of IS has had some complaints about the small size and a rear seat that's practically unusable for passengers. The Q50, for example, is a larger car that's comfortable for four and still an IS competitor. With the market for passenger cars dropping off, adding a few extra inches to the IS here and there would make it more appealing to many - including disenfranchised GS owners. The market for smaller sedans like CLA/A3 is quite minuscule and while I don't think the IS is that small, it could stand to grow a bit. If they offer a compelling enough engine option and some nice luxury/F Sport packages, I can see it being an option for those who are loyal to Lexus but missing the GS.
maiaramdan
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Ironically I mocked BMW and BENZ for making the 5 / E as a mini 7 / S version because it will then dillute the 7 / S special title in there respective lineups
Now Lexus will dillute LS imagine with a FWD based midsize
Now Lexus will dillute LS imagine with a FWD based midsize
James
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I think the ES rendering looks good. Now does it look good enough to replace the GS probably not. Before I got my GS I test drove the ES and while the inside is great the lack of sportiness easily made my decision to go to GS. The IS I also found to be nice but the size or lack of size especially in the back would not work. I pushed to get the GS as I understood that the GS might not be around much longer which looks to be true unfortunately.
I guess the main question is if the ES comes out late this year or early next and maybe it comes AWD (F I think is a dream only) how long until a larger IS comes out to help fill the gap? By 2020? And will they actually bring an F right at launch and not wait a few years?
Like Krew said the ES rendering looks great but to replace the GS totally...sad day for any GS fans as it truly is a great car.
I guess the main question is if the ES comes out late this year or early next and maybe it comes AWD (F I think is a dream only) how long until a larger IS comes out to help fill the gap? By 2020? And will they actually bring an F right at launch and not wait a few years?
Like Krew said the ES rendering looks great but to replace the GS totally...sad day for any GS fans as it truly is a great car.
F1 Silver Arrows
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I am shocked at the amount of people mourning the GS. It will not go. Carmaker literally said they are planning for a SOP in the middle of 2019. Let's put it at this because I seem to get a general consensus from everyone.
- Everyone seems impressed with the new ES, however we don't feel that it is a great successor to the GS.
- My solution is that in 1 or 2 generations from today, they make the shift from an FWD to a RWD platform with a longitudinal engine.
- Another solution could be is that they could ramp up the ES so well that we forget about the GS, say 1-3 years? And they knock everything out of park with the 5GS. Then the ES could assimilate to the GS/LS/IS RWD/AWD platform.
You guys need to realize that this is very much possible for Lexus to do. I wouldn't be so worked up over it. Yeah, the GS may be gone, but I highly doubt Lexus would be stupid enough to remove such a key player in the lineup. The GS, like the flagship cars, is a car so many people aspire to. With the shift that Lexus is taking, I would be outright shocked if the GS was gone for good. It will never leave.
- Shift the IS in terms of size towards the current GS.
- With all due respect to those who think they would do that. I would leave Lexus for good if they were to do such thing. Tell me, and think about it. How irrational is it to can a whole model, which if executed properly, can translate into tens of millions of dollars in sales, then to bring their well-known compact sedan to a executive size car? Why not fix the GS, and shift the freaking ES to the same platform as the rest of the lineup. You don't have to look far whatsoever. Look at BMW's playbook, and dear god, Mercedes-Benz is embracing it. 4 DOOR COUPES. Like many of you guys have been mentioning. Can't the GS be a much more dynamic car than the ES? Hell yeah. Seems like a much more inexpensive way to fix the lineup. INSTEAD OF, can the GS, which is millions of dollars of R&D, hours, and man/womanpower WASTED. Then move the smallest car in the lineup and make it into an executive car size? Come on.
- I know some of you guys have been mentioning some flaws with that plan, and you're right. But the main issue is right above.
- GS buyers will buy the IS if it's larger.
- Sure. There may be buyers who do that. But a few of you guys who think it will SAVE Lexus, with all due respect, it just won't happen. You're literally blanking out an entire segment just so the ES can get a few more buyers. People want to have an executive size car, that is RWD, prestigious, luxurious, and in the case of Lexus, reliable, dependable, and simply brilliant. There is that yet principle that I always mention. Sporty, yet luxurious or vise versa. Having simply a larger IS won't solve anything, in fact, Lexus will start to decline into oblivion.
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Why TTV6 when TMC have been working on a TTV8???
How about make the ES larger than the GS and make the shrink the GS a bit and enlarge the IS a bit, then make GS the slightly more luxurious and more powerful 4DC version of the IS, and keep RC the 2DC of the IS.
The modular platform makes cost distribution much cheaper so I don't see how axing the GS will really save Lexus that much cost.
CALTY is a very small studio, and there are a lot of just graduated or about to graduate car designers out there in desperate need of a job and does not require much salary to deal with. Why not hire more designers and let them have fun to reinvent the GS as a concept? That concept can also go down to the next RC and IS to distribute cost.
Reversing the role of GS and ES should be a good move because the US is the major market for performance oriented vehicles and the rest of the world don't reallt care, so making the GS more focused in the US market is the best move.
Who knows, maybe TMC is waiting to introduce the GS after they introduce the TTV8, since the GS is a performance oriented sedan.
The modular platform makes cost distribution much cheaper so I don't see how axing the GS will really save Lexus that much cost.
CALTY is a very small studio, and there are a lot of just graduated or about to graduate car designers out there in desperate need of a job and does not require much salary to deal with. Why not hire more designers and let them have fun to reinvent the GS as a concept? That concept can also go down to the next RC and IS to distribute cost.
Reversing the role of GS and ES should be a good move because the US is the major market for performance oriented vehicles and the rest of the world don't reallt care, so making the GS more focused in the US market is the best move.
Who knows, maybe TMC is waiting to introduce the GS after they introduce the TTV8, since the GS is a performance oriented sedan.
But then why we haven't seen any prototype / test model on the road yet?
The biggest problem with the ES is that it completely messes up the pricing structure of Lexus sedans, which puts not only the GS but also the IS at risk. Normally there is a progression as cars grow in size. But the ES is this very disruptive executive-size sedan sold at slightly above mid-size prices: that's where the success comes from. It makes the GS completely irrelevant, but also makes the IS hard to sell.
We will probably move this discussion to a different thread but here's the problem with the IS. As an entry level model it should be the biggest seller simply because it's the cheapest Lexus one can buy, this is just how market works. But it has become so impractical to the point that it's always better to jump to a competitor (for sports-oriented buyers) or an ES (for generic buyers) for some extra cost. The IS has a maximum rear legroom of 820mm/32.2in which is laughable when even a Corolla offers more than 36 in. All of its competitors (3-series, C-class, A4, Giulia) feature at least 900mm/35.5in in the rear. People shopping for a mid-size sports sedan don't necessarily care about practicality, but that extra 3-inch is a difference between "unusable" and "slightly cramped". It is a problem IS buyers will immediately notice which makes them think twice. The salespeople would get nervous and immediately try to shift their attention to the ES, funneling even more sales to that single model.
The IS would be a much more buyer-friendly vehicle if it adopts the size of its stablemate, the JDM Mark X/FAW Reiz. Current gen Mark X has a 50mm/2in stretch in wheelbase, which results in 100mm/4in extra rear legroom at the cost of 50mm/2in less front legroom. As a result the Mark X/Reiz is a notably more practical sedan than the IS, despite sharing platform. This slight stretch does not put the car in the executive-size, but still offers almost the same legroom as the GS and slightly more than competition.
And who would ever think this car looks less athletic than an IS because it's longer?
But even then pricing becomes a big problem. Lexus will be very reluctant to raise the starting price of the new ES to give IS more breathing room. It can be argued the "stretched IS" and 7ES can coexist at similar price points aiming at different demographics, but I suspect bean counters at Aichi will have some problems "making the business case" (a phrase enthusiasts all hate).
Still, I think this is a better direction than trying to remake a super exciting $60-70k GS. The lack of an appealing mainstream model is a bigger problem than missing a low-seller. The ES is mainstream, but there needs to be an "anti-ES" as another option, one that is convincing enough that buyers won't turn away from.
We will probably move this discussion to a different thread but here's the problem with the IS. As an entry level model it should be the biggest seller simply because it's the cheapest Lexus one can buy, this is just how market works. But it has become so impractical to the point that it's always better to jump to a competitor (for sports-oriented buyers) or an ES (for generic buyers) for some extra cost. The IS has a maximum rear legroom of 820mm/32.2in which is laughable when even a Corolla offers more than 36 in. All of its competitors (3-series, C-class, A4, Giulia) feature at least 900mm/35.5in in the rear. People shopping for a mid-size sports sedan don't necessarily care about practicality, but that extra 3-inch is a difference between "unusable" and "slightly cramped". It is a problem IS buyers will immediately notice which makes them think twice. The salespeople would get nervous and immediately try to shift their attention to the ES, funneling even more sales to that single model.
The IS would be a much more buyer-friendly vehicle if it adopts the size of its stablemate, the JDM Mark X/FAW Reiz. Current gen Mark X has a 50mm/2in stretch in wheelbase, which results in 100mm/4in extra rear legroom at the cost of 50mm/2in less front legroom. As a result the Mark X/Reiz is a notably more practical sedan than the IS, despite sharing platform. This slight stretch does not put the car in the executive-size, but still offers almost the same legroom as the GS and slightly more than competition.
And who would ever think this car looks less athletic than an IS because it's longer?
But even then pricing becomes a big problem. Lexus will be very reluctant to raise the starting price of the new ES to give IS more breathing room. It can be argued the "stretched IS" and 7ES can coexist at similar price points aiming at different demographics, but I suspect bean counters at Aichi will have some problems "making the business case" (a phrase enthusiasts all hate).
Still, I think this is a better direction than trying to remake a super exciting $60-70k GS. The lack of an appealing mainstream model is a bigger problem than missing a low-seller. The ES is mainstream, but there needs to be an "anti-ES" as another option, one that is convincing enough that buyers won't turn away from.
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The biggest problem with the ES is that it completely messes up the pricing structure of Lexus sedans, which puts not only the GS but also the IS at risk. Normally there is a progression as cars grow in size. But the ES is this very disruptive executive-size sedan sold at slightly above mid-size prices: that's where the success comes from. It makes the GS completely irrelevant, but also makes the IS hard to sell.
We will probably move this discussion to a different thread but here's the problem with the IS. As an entry level model it should be the biggest seller simply because it's the cheapest Lexus one can buy, this is just how market works. But it has become so impractical to the point that it's always better to jump to a competitor (for sports-oriented buyers) or an ES (for generic buyers) for some extra cost. The IS has a maximum rear legroom of 820mm/32.2in which is laughable when even a Corolla offers more than 36 in. All of its competitors (3-series, C-class, A4, Giulia) feature at least 900mm/35.5in in the rear. People shopping for a mid-size sports sedan don't necessarily care about practicality, but that extra 3-inch is a difference between "unusable" and "slightly cramped". It is a problem IS buyers will immediately notice which makes them think twice. The salespeople would get nervous and immediately try to shift their attention to the ES, funneling even more sales to that single model.
The IS would be a much more buyer-friendly vehicle if it adopts the size of its stablemate, the JDM Mark X/FAW Reiz. Current gen Mark X has a 50mm/2in stretch in wheelbase, which results in 100mm/4in extra rear legroom at the cost of 50mm/2in less front legroom. As a result the Mark X/Reiz is a notably more practical sedan than the IS, despite sharing platform. This slight stretch does not put the car in the executive-size, but still offers almost the same legroom as the GS and slightly more than competition.
And who would ever think this car looks less athletic than an IS because it's longer?
But even then pricing becomes a big problem. Lexus will be very reluctant to raise the starting price of the new ES to give IS more breathing room. It can be argued the "stretched IS" and 7ES can coexist at similar price points aiming at different demographics, but I suspect bean counters at Aichi will have some problems "making the business case" (a phrase enthusiasts all hate).
Still, I think this is a better direction than trying to remake a super exciting $60-70k GS. The lack of an appealing mainstream model is a bigger problem than missing a low-seller. The ES is mainstream, but there needs to be an "anti-ES" as another option, one that is convincing enough that buyers won't turn away from.
This is a great insight.
The way I am looking at it:
The IS and ES compete in the same price segment but they are totally different products. IS is a sporty sedan while the ES is a comfy sedan. I have said this for years but during the sales breakdown the IS and ES should be almost counted as the same when comparing to other sedans like the BMW 3 and 4 series (think of the IS as the coupe version with 4 doors of the ES).
If you are to remove the GS then there would not be any product filling that gap between the IS/ES and the LS. You basically jump from 38k to 75k so there needs to be an option in the 50-60K space.
My solution (while being more costly) is to either repurpose the GS as literally the smaller LS in that price range or make two cars, one focused for comfort and the other one for fun to drive.
I also think the IS should definitely increase in size in order to make the back row more comfy or restructure the interior so there's a sense of roominess.
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