2018 LS Master Thread (Debuts 1/9/17 8:30am -2017 NAIAS)

[CIF]

I agree with Gecko in that an all-screen upper dash would be a bad idea. Based on the interior camouflage being used in the spy shots we've seen, it doesn't look like the 5LS will have an all-screen upper dash.

 

[mikeavelli]

Its going to be amazing.....

One thing to keep in mind, none of the luxury brands really see this segment as a growing one especially the big 3 Germans and Lexus. Now with the Panamera/Tesla and move to SUVs its really about elevating your brands prestige by offering a top tier flagship.

I surely don't expect the 3k sales a month the LS did in 2006 but around 1,000 a month+ for the next few years. Just my take on it.

 

[CIF]

Its going to be amazing.....

One thing to keep in mind, none of the luxury brands really see this segment as a growing one especially the big 3 Germans and Lexus. Now with the Panamera/Tesla and move to SUVs its really about elevating your brands prestige by offering a top tier flagship.

I surely don't expect the 3k sales a month the LS did in 2006 but around 1,000 a month+ for the next few years. Just my take on it.

Well any views like that are foolish thinking IMO. Trends come and go in the auto industry; different cycles constantly occur, and nothing stays super popular forever. Currently crossovers, anything that looks like a crossover, and to a lesser extent true body-on-frame SUVs are the current market craze. That will change sometime in the future. Automakers who heavily modify their lineups to chase current trends, while neglecting other vehicles I think are thinking short term. IMO the best automakers out there always think long-term, and cater to current trends while still investing in all other vehicles in their lineup, even if they're untrendy. Since nobody can predict the future, if another segment of vehicles suddenly becomes popular, those automakers that invested fully into their entire lineup without neglecting anything will reap the full benefits.

We can even look at the current crossover craze. What are the top-selling crossovers in the market today? Models that have been around quite a long time, have reputations, and more importantly models that were around long before the current crossover craze started. These models are from automakers who invested into crossovers before any trend or market craze occurred. Now that's long-term thinking.

Anyways, getting too off topic here lol, back to the LS.

 

[Carmaker1]

Excellent points Carmaker1 in your various replies. I sadly just don't have the time to fully reply to all your points. Besides we have discussed the 5LS here quite in depth. I will quickly mention, your comments about the S Class being seen at Toyota facilities a couple of years ago, combined with the lack of S Classes with public 5LS testing makes sense now. I think you're totally correct that Toyota did most of its S Class testing and comparisons in secret, and now with public 5LS testing underway, it seems they've carefully only shown the sportier competitors being benchmarked (in public). The S Class is the king of this segment, so it would make absolutely zero sense for Toyota to ignore that model. I knew there was a logical explanation for lack of S Classes seen as competitor benchmarks in the 5LS public test shots.

Also now obvious, but yes given that the 5LS has already been seen publicly testing in Colorado as well as Death Valley, this simply indicates that the production debut is coming soon. The general pattern for Toyota is that when future models are spied publicly testing on US roads, that indicates a coming production debut in the near future.

Also many thanks White Beach for the invaluable Japanese translation of the Best Car article!

Thanks so much CIF. I have enjoyed discussing it with you and look forward to resuming in-depth LS discussion with you next year, which is when it will be allowable for me to do so. All I can say is for now, that I cannot wait till the rest of you finally get to see what Lexus (with the backing of Toyota) has invested in this vehicle.

 

[Levi]

Well any views like that are foolish thinking IMO. Trends come and go in the auto industry; different cycles constantly occur, and nothing stays super popular forever. Currently crossovers, anything that looks like a crossover, and to a lesser extent true body-on-frame SUVs are the current market craze. That will change sometime in the future. Automakers who heavily modify their lineups to chase current trends, while neglecting other vehicles I think are thinking short term. IMO the best automakers out there always think long-term, and cater to current trends while still investing in all other vehicles in their lineup, even if they're untrendy. Since nobody can predict the future, if another segment of vehicles suddenly becomes popular, those automakers that invested fully into their entire lineup without neglecting anything will reap the full benefits.

We can even look at the current crossover craze. What are the top-selling crossovers in the market today? Models that have been around quite a long time, have reputations, and more importantly models that were around long before the current crossover craze started. These models are from automakers who invested into crossovers before any trend or market craze occurred. Now that's long-term thinking.

Some type of cars I would like to see again have buy, are practical sportscars (2 door, 2 seats but with space for caring stuff, shooting brake) and sportscars with increased ground clearance, like for rally, think Lancia Stratos.

But IMO, sporty yet comfortable sedans remain the best machine to travel on paved roads.

 

[mikeavelli]

Well any views like that are foolish thinking IMO. Trends come and go in the auto industry; different cycles constantly occur, and nothing stays super popular forever. Currently crossovers, anything that looks like a crossover, and to a lesser extent true body-on-frame SUVs are the current market craze. That will change sometime in the future. Automakers who heavily modify their lineups to chase current trends, while neglecting other vehicles I think are thinking short term. IMO the best automakers out there always think long-term, and cater to current trends while still investing in all other vehicles in their lineup, even if they're untrendy. Since nobody can predict the future, if another segment of vehicles suddenly becomes popular, those automakers that invested fully into their entire lineup without neglecting anything will reap the full benefits.

We can even look at the current crossover craze. What are the top-selling crossovers in the market today? Models that have been around quite a long time, have reputations, and more importantly models that were around long before the current crossover craze started. These models are from automakers who invested into crossovers before any trend or market craze occurred. Now that's long-term thinking.

Anyways, getting too off topic here lol, back to the LS.

I guess looking at myself, I'm not even sure I would want the new LS if it doesn't have utility in spades. I would dream for it to be a 5 door (ala Panamera/A7). Living/travling in the city, its just a PITA to drive around (iQ anyone lol) such a big car. Looks nice though

Now a LS F answers everything but it will likely be a 130k vehicle (yipes) and come with backseats you cannot drop due to some brace being added (RC F). As I've gotten older, utility is becoming a big selling point.

That being said as I type that, cars for me are still emotional and I might see the LS and sell my child for it hahahahaa

 

[CIF]

I guess looking at myself, I'm not even sure I would want the new LS if it doesn't have utility in spades. I would dream for it to be a 5 door (ala Panamera/A7). Living/travling in the city, its just a PITA to drive around (iQ anyone lol) such a big car. Looks nice though

Now a LS F answers everything but it will likely be a 130k vehicle (yipes) and come with backseats you cannot drop due to some brace being added (RC F). As I've gotten older, utility is becoming a big selling point.

That being said as I type that, cars for me are still emotional and I might see the LS and sell my child for it hahahahaa

I totally understand and personal tastes change. But independent of that, market trends also change. I myself these days also need lots of utility for example, so I'm not even in the market for any sedans, or coupes. It's not that I'm following the current market trend, this is simply where I am at personally and in terms of my vehicle requirements. With that said, luxury vehicles sometimes are emotional purchases, even with a brand like Lexus that has plenty of logical and objective great attributes.

 

[mikeavelli]

I totally understand and personal tastes change. But independent of that, market trends also change. I myself these days also need lots of utility for example, so I'm not even in the market for any sedans, or coupes. It's not that I'm following the current market trend, this is simply where I am at personally and in terms of my vehicle requirements. With that said, luxury vehicles sometimes are emotional purchases, even with a brand like Lexus that has plenty of logical and objective great attributes.

And to your point about emotion, I think Lexus sees that the current buyer now wants emotion in a more aggressive design. I still can't believe how a new Lexus looks, its so bold and exciting even if it might not be beautiful. I find the class to be well classy but not exciting in regards to looks. The Panamera/A7/CLS fill that role a bit but are smaller. If Lexus nails aggressive styling and class leading handling/drive with new engines and tech/luxury to die for, it will be a smashing success.

Lexus cannot half ass any part of the new LS. I'm confident it will usher in a new age for the brand

 

[CIF]

And to your point about emotion, I think Lexus sees that the current buyer now wants emotion in a more aggressive design. I still can't believe how a new Lexus looks, its so bold and exciting even if it might not be beautiful. I find the class to be well classy but not exciting in regards to looks. The Panamera/A7/CLS fill that role a bit but are smaller. If Lexus nails aggressive styling and class leading handling/drive with new engines and tech/luxury to die for, it will be a smashing success.

Lexus cannot half ass any part of the new LS. I'm confident it will usher in a new age for the brand

Well I would temper that with saying that Lexus needs to be careful here. They can't go too aggressive, overstyled or polarizing on regular models, because they will make themselves into too niche of a brand, almost like a boutique luxury brand. I really don't think that's what Akio Toyoda is intending.

If Lexus can pull off aggressive while still looking luxurious and classy, then excellent. For the most part they have done so fairly well so far, although the IS and GS refreshes IMO are so-so and somewhat concerning in terms of the overstyled bits.

 

[mikeavelli]

Well I would temper that with saying that Lexus needs to be careful here. They can't go too aggressive, overstyled or polarizing on regular models, because they will make themselves into too niche of a brand, almost like a boutique luxury brand. I really don't think that's what Akio Toyoda is intending.

If Lexus can pull off aggressive while still looking luxurious and classy, then excellent. For the most part they have done so fairly well so far, although the IS and GS refreshes IMO are so-so and somewhat concerning in terms of the overstyled bits.

From all I've heard, it looks like the concept. The front end is going to be very out there for this class.

 

[Levi]

I guess looking at myself, I'm not even sure I would want the new LS if it doesn't have utility in spades. I would dream for it to be a 5 door (ala Panamera/A7). Living/travling in the city, its just a PITA to drive around (iQ anyone lol) such a big car. Looks nice though

Now a LS F answers everything but it will likely be a 130k vehicle (yipes) and come with backseats you cannot drop due to some brace being added (RC F). As I've gotten older, utility is becoming a big selling point.

That being said as I type that, cars for me are still emotional and I might see the LS and sell my child for it hahahahaa

Lexus LX is the LS with utility, maybe too much utility. IMO the R Class is a better idea than Panamera, A7 and 5 Series GT.

 

[CIF]

From all I've heard, it looks like the concept. The front end is going to be very out there for this class.

Looking just like the concept IMO would be a very nice balance of elegant, classy, unique, modern, luxurious, and yet aggressive.

 

[Gecko]

This class is in decline overall, the A8 is bland, every other Mercedes now looks like the S Class and the 7 series is a sales flop. If Lexus doesn't go aggressive with styling and make a bold statement, I think they've already lost.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

This class is in decline overall, the A8 is bland, every other Mercedes now looks like the S Class and the 7 series is a sales flop. If Lexus doesn't go aggressive with styling and make a bold statement, I think they've already lost.

Interesting that you mention the Audi A8. This coming Wednesday 30 November will mark the 7th anniversary of the 3rd-gen (D4) A8's debut here in Miami as part of the Art Basel festivities and, from what I've read, the 4th-gen (D5) Audi A8 will probably debut sometime next year and thus be vying for attention against the 5th-gen Lexus LS launch.

Personally, I think that Audi's cookie-cutter styling predictability (and blandness, as Gecko correctly points out) will work against it. Lexus LC coupe and LF-FC pointers and hints notwithstanding, there's still a bit more of an air of mystery and suspense as to what the production 5th-gen Lexus LS will actually look like. If Audi's latest "new" models (A4, A5 and Q5) are anything to go by, the A8 promises to be another barely evolutionary "been there, seen that" yawnfest snoozer as far as exterior styling.

Lest Lexus become complacent, however, while the 5th-gen Lexus LS may win the "shock and awe" exterior styling character sweepstakes, there are two other battlegrounds where it's wide open whether Audi or Lexus will gain the upper hand: interior styling plus features; and what steps each brand will take towards the autonomous driving future.

 

[CIF]

This class is in decline overall, the A8 is bland, every other Mercedes now looks like the S Class and the 7 series is a sales flop. If Lexus doesn't go aggressive with styling and make a bold statement, I think they've already lost.

I got my dream list of expectations for the 5LS ready to go, just waiting on the official debut now .

 

[mikeavelli]

Interesting that you mention the Audi A8. This coming Wednesday 30 November will mark the 7th anniversary of the 3rd-gen (D4) A8's debut here in Miami as part of the Art Basel festivities and, from what I've read, the 4th-gen (D5) Audi A8 will probably debut sometime next year and thus be vying for attention against the 5th-gen Lexus LS launch.

Personally, I think that Audi's cookie-cutter styling predictability (and blandness, as Gecko correctly points out) will work against it. Lexus LC coupe and LF-FC pointers and hints notwithstanding, there's still a bit more of an air of mystery and suspense as to what the production 5th-gen Lexus LS will actually look like. If Audi's latest "new" models (A4, A5 and Q5) are anything to go by, the A8 promises to be another barely evolutionary "been there, seen that" yawnfest snoozer as far as exterior styling.

Lest Lexus become complacent, however, while the 5th-gen Lexus LS may win the "shock and awe" exterior styling character sweepstakes, there are two other battlegrounds where it's wide open whether Audi or Lexus will gain the upper hand: interior styling plus features; and what steps each brand will take towards the autonomous driving future.

Yeah from the spy shots its more evolution for the A8....From what I read Audi sees the A7 and A8 as both flagships a bit, the A7 obviously for those that want something sportier but are still paying A8 money for a vehicle. The A8 just never caught on here and I don't see that changing much next go round even though its very very well done.

 

[Levi]

German interior looks too plastic for me. And while they claim their plastic to be more "premium", I prefer Toyota/Lexus plastic, which is a lot more durable. Try buying a used German car, the interior is in pieces, no better than Fiat/Alfa/Maserati/Ferrari. Only the S Class has a quality looking interior, but it also is not durable. The new 7 Series is quite the same in terms of quality, but the design has no quality, it is just a pimped 1 Series interior.

 

[White Beach]

Latest issue of MagX is released and its article on 5LS is quite surprising. There are some pieces of information that are quite different from what we have expected.


The points of the article are:

-MagX has newly obtained the image of 5LS’ front end. L-shaped signature lamp is positioned apart from headlamp (see the picture above)
-5LS will make its debut in Detroit Auto Show in January 2017
-sales will begin August 2017 in Japan
-no V8 engine anymore on its lineup (!)
-so the available engine options are two V6s at the launch, which will be
*3.5 liter V6 twin turbo [421PS / 61.2kg-m & 10.8km/l]
*3.5 liter V6 hybrid [295PS / 36.3kg-m (engine only) / >350PS (combined, predicted) & 18.6km/l], which is the same engine as LC500h but has slightly different figures (LC500h(Europe): 300PS / 35.5kg-m)
-model number of 3.5 liter V6 twin turbo is V35A-FTS and engineers are still working to improve its so-so fuel economy
-nomenclature (for turbo version?) is changed. “t” (such as NX200t) will disappear and instead, larger number than the actual displacement will be used to indicate that the (turbo) engine has performance equivalent of larger displacement NA engine
-so LS500 for 3.5 liter V6 twin turbo, LS500h for 3.5 liter V6 hybrid
-fuel cell version and L4 turbo version will be added around 2020
-side mirrorless version might not be available at the launch. will be added later along with autonomous driving technology


I’ve never expected that LS would abandon V8. It’s surprising and quite disappointing IMO but given the strangely detailed information such as model number of twin turbo V6, I think this article may be largely accurate and reliable.
And regarding the rendering released this time, it is almost the same (not similar) as the one from Best Car (October 2016) which I posted recently. MagX released another rendering while ago, which Carmaker1 posted in May 2016, but it was slightly different from Best Car's rendering or latest MagX's one.
I thought it(former MagX's rendering) was highly accurate finalized design but was it a sketch based on speculation after all? I admit that I prefer former rendering from MagX to that of Best Car or latest MagX issue, but considering that the latter two are almost the same and are released very recently, they are true to the final design of 5LS.

former MagX rendering


Best Car rendering (Oct. 2016)

 

[CIF]

Thank you for the translation once again White Beach!

If this new information is true, there is a lot of disappointment IMHO. I also can't imagine the LS dropping the V8. That would be very disappointing. That would mean the LC gets a V8 and the LS doesn't? It only increases the anticipation to see the full reveal and specs. Also if we compare to the S Class, there are a huge number of engine options available on the S Class in different world markets. A turbo 4 I think would be a terrible idea for the LS IMO, but then again the S Class does offer a 4 cyl in select markets, so let's hope if a turbo 4 does appear it is only for select markets. In summary, I think that dropping the V8 is not a sign of a world beater in this segment. I begin to wonder the possibilities then. Did Toyota not design a next-gen V8? Surely the next-gen Tundra and Sequoia will need one. If going by that idea, then a variant of such an engine would come to the LS. Unless Toyota is using the existing UR V8 in the upcoming next-gen Tundra and Sequoia.

A nomenclature change for the turbo engines IMO would also be a foolish idea; it would simply be following the Germans instead of Lexus doing it their own way. I find the German approach to turbo nomenclature confusing and counter-intuitive.

The only bit of good news I see here is the confirmation of a brand new (V6) engine design. Also that stated torque figure looks great, converting to roughly 443 lb-ft of torque.

I maintain hope that not all this information is 100% accurate. If it is, my expectations for the 5LS are already dropping.

 

[Levi]

IMO focusing too much on large ICE engines (as the Germans) is not very clever. BEVs have in such a short time approached the level of ICEs (for Western countries). For the mass-market I4 and V6 HEVs/PHEVs seam to be most reasonable transition to full BEVs. High-power ICEVs will remain a niche, that is largely dominated by the Germans and some other exotic European brands, so Japanese would be wasting resources, and still not be up there. I think Toyota can do with I4 and V6 gasoline engines. Toyota was right with "large displacement" de-tuned ICE with hybrid and CVT for best fuel efficiency, however German marketing convinced the masses with a lie, the market does not want Toyota's engines.

Toyota should focus on BEV tech (not only limited to lithium-ion and hopefully over in 10 years). In the meantime good diesel engines will still be necessary, I4 and a return to I6 diesel would be the best engine for the next Land Cruiser.