5th Generation (2018+) Lexus LS 500 & LS 500h Megathread
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Very insightful, thanks for that.
I think Mercedes design language is “regal.” If you want people to know you have money you don’t mess around you just go and buy an S-class. It doesn’t matter if competitors have a better engine or not, even people who aren’t into cars can appreciate that someone drives a Mercedes.
Then, they took that same design language and adapted them to be as sporty as possible. AMG did a phenomenal job. Their sporty designs might not look as polarizing as a BMW or a Lexus but they retain an elite appearance. I think their current Mercedes design language fumbled this a bit, the 3-pointed star taillights look a little tacky, the prior S class looks more sophisticated to me.
With Lexus, their current design is polarizing, and I think it would be hard for them to make their LS LOOK elite. I am sure it will look great and luxurious, but not as exclusive. In my opinion, I think this is where Genesis did great. Their front grille and headlights look stately and handsome (their EVs not so much).
To Lexus’ credit I think they absolutely nailed the design on the GX and IS (and that was with a heavy refresh, not a redesign!). No one expected a GX makeover like that. I hope Lexus pulls another rabbit out of the hat like that for the next LS.
Kelvin2020
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This🫡
Lexus MUST abandon their all electric strategy because it is not feasible. Focusing on hybrids can ensure the long-term prosperity of this brand.
mikeavelli
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The hell you on? Everything is negative about the brand with you. I would hope a brand new 7 series sells more. Before that the LS and 7 series traded months.
You said no one wants a big Lexus sedan. It still sells relatively decent in this class for an older vehicle.
not to be rude here, but is keeping it simple what the target demo wants? I see a vocal LS owner on CL who now owns a S class. Hes a millennial realtor whose part enthusiast. His dad had every generation of the LS since project f1, bought new. He himself started at the ES and rose up to the GS, and then went through two 4th gens. When their LS460 lease ( was near completion they shopped the Ls500, S class W223, 7, and A8. The 7 and S came out on top, and i believe the s class was a bit more pricey but fell in love with sedan.
When asked about the LS, his writeup mentioned lack of the rear legroom, v8, suspension thats not composed, and a vehicle thats confused by its own identity; Is it a panamera competitor or a S class competitor?
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I would ask Lexus "what time are they on?" Is Lexus going to leave the XF50 with minor improvements/refreshes forever like the XF40 or will we see successor come MY2025?
@Flagship1 can’t argue any of this. All great points. I guess that’s the 5LS main issue. Identity crises. Who is it really for??? I guess that’s why Lexus hasn’t done anything because themselves don’t know where to start to solve the issue.
I think its a difficult environment that Lexus and all mfgs in the super sedan market face. The market is up in the air with almost everything, ie do folks want an ikea special super screenified interior or do they want a more classical wood grain and a central screen? Will a V8 be necessary when a 6 cylinder or pure EV is better on paper? Do customers still care for comfort or only want something that carves corners? Are we as a brand still going all in on EV by 2030 or have timelines been pushed?
I cant imagine being a product planner in the segement, let alone take design proposals to final approval in front of the board. Hats off to the chief engineers in that one.
Simple. You either make a true luxury class competitor like the S class, or go sport luxury like the panamera. They failed attempting both: it was not as good as the S class nor was it as sporty as the panamera.
There may be contentions about the exterior and interior design of the W223, but to say the W223 chassis being inferior than that of the W222 is an overstatement. I looked up on medias and independent testings (particularly the ones from Chinese media where they pitted the W223 against its predecessor and 7er / A8), all came to the same conclusion that the W223 had retained its comfort level against W222 (measured with G meter), whilst improved upon its handling capability and inch closer to G12. When the LS first came out, they particularly emphasized how it was a lot sportier, but it was partly because it was made in comparison to its own (previous generation). Perhaps the F-Sport variant outperformed the W222, but it never really surpassed G11, and even then the W222 wasn't that bad dynamically to begin with. The W223 is truly a benchmark in every department, not just the surface level but also in chassis tuning. The LS just couldn't find its own identity. Does it want to be sporty? If so, can it reach the same level or surpass the competition? If not, does it win in powertrain, gas mileage, space, nvh, tech, or anything? I think you get the idea.
Check out this particular footage if you haven't seen it before.
It's truly an impressive engineering feat, for it to handle like a sports GT, carrying almost 2.2 tons of weight with very long wheelbase.
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Ian Schmidt
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Yes and no. Mercedes has been seemingly hell-bent on cheapening their image for a while, but the good news for them is that people who aren't into cars didn't mind as long as they can all get GLAs at Camry prices. There's an opportunity there, but the only manufacturer really leaning hard into traditional luxury outside of the S Class is Lucid.
F1 Silver Arrows
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I definitely agree that the W223 has been markedly better in terms of chassis tuning, but I should have clarified, I meant more when it comes to interior and exterior design.
F1 Silver Arrows
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Yeah this seems to be it. Appreciate the correction. But it's interesting to note how much closer the 7-Series is to the S-Class/EQS in terms of sales. I almost always leaned towards the S-Class, but the new 7-Series is truly a work of art.
Gecko
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Maybe it's nostalgia, but I think there is still a solid case to be made for a new LS -- however, Lexus would have to approach it with the same "best or nothing" passion that made the LS iconic to begin with, and that also made the first few generations so strong.
I have a hard time reading and agreeing with, "Nobody buys these sedans - there's no business case," when the LS outsold (and outperformed) the S Class for years, and the nameplate itself built a trusted reputation for peerless luxury, quality and technology. When you look at newer entrants like the Panamera, Model S, E-Tron GT, EQ models, i7, Air, etc I see a class that is growing and diversifying, not one that is dead. Lexus has been inconsistent with the LS, and as a result, the product has suffered greatly - but it's not completely irrelevant.
With the mass consumer migration to CUVs and SUVs, I think the future for all sedans is two fold:
1) High value: Cheaper than CUVs/SUVs as a cost-focused play (more of a mainstream play for Honda, Toyota and Nissan)
2) Unique performance or design proposition that SUVs can't provide (think high performance like Panamera, or dramatic design like the LC stunned the world in 2012 and 2018 as a production car... but with 4 doors)
The formula for a successful new LS would have to be:
On the flipside, you could make the case that in an SUV/CUV world, the modern Lexus flagship should be something with more ground clearance and not an LS at all. I wouldn't disagree, but with no LF-1 Limitless or equivalent, I don't think there is any legitimate flagship crossover or SUV outside of LX, which isn't packing flagship credentials in anything other than name.
LX: No.
TX: No.
GX: No.
RZ: No.
With a full lineup from RX to TX, GX to LX, and RZ to upcoming TZ, I'm not sure Lexus could justify another crossover unless it was uber-luxury or sport but as of now, none of those products have the full package of flagship power, flagship design, flagship interior, and flagship technology.
I have been looking at Lexus as a company without much focus or direction and I think the LS has always been the vehicle that set the tone for who Lexus was, and what we as consumers should expect. We need that again, even if it's not an "LS" in name, but I certainly think it could -- and should -- be.
I have a hard time reading and agreeing with, "Nobody buys these sedans - there's no business case," when the LS outsold (and outperformed) the S Class for years, and the nameplate itself built a trusted reputation for peerless luxury, quality and technology. When you look at newer entrants like the Panamera, Model S, E-Tron GT, EQ models, i7, Air, etc I see a class that is growing and diversifying, not one that is dead. Lexus has been inconsistent with the LS, and as a result, the product has suffered greatly - but it's not completely irrelevant.
With the mass consumer migration to CUVs and SUVs, I think the future for all sedans is two fold:
1) High value: Cheaper than CUVs/SUVs as a cost-focused play (more of a mainstream play for Honda, Toyota and Nissan)
2) Unique performance or design proposition that SUVs can't provide (think high performance like Panamera, or dramatic design like the LC stunned the world in 2012 and 2018 as a production car... but with 4 doors)
The formula for a successful new LS would have to be:
- Beautiful, dramatic exterior design that people want to buy and are willing to abandon SUVs to purchase (and Lexus CAN do this - think LC 500, 3GX, 3.5 IS refresh)
- High tech uber-luxury interior with Lexus' best and most forward thinking (again I look to the LC for originality and execution inspiration - an evolution of the current LS interior with LC-like personality and details would be incredible)
- Need to make sure LS hallmarks of interior space and headroom are intact unlike 5LS
- Next generation hybrid tech (for example, iForce MAX TTV6 or V8 + high performance batteries), V8 (just go ahead and put the 600hp version that's destined for the LFA II) and/or solid state battery EV.
- I'd venture to say they should drop the LS F SPORT trim and only offer luxury models (core LS buyer) and an F SPORT Performance or LS F model that can truly compete with AMG, Panamera, etc. LS F SPORT is just a strange proposition as it stands
On the flipside, you could make the case that in an SUV/CUV world, the modern Lexus flagship should be something with more ground clearance and not an LS at all. I wouldn't disagree, but with no LF-1 Limitless or equivalent, I don't think there is any legitimate flagship crossover or SUV outside of LX, which isn't packing flagship credentials in anything other than name.
LX: No.
TX: No.
GX: No.
RZ: No.
With a full lineup from RX to TX, GX to LX, and RZ to upcoming TZ, I'm not sure Lexus could justify another crossover unless it was uber-luxury or sport but as of now, none of those products have the full package of flagship power, flagship design, flagship interior, and flagship technology.
I have been looking at Lexus as a company without much focus or direction and I think the LS has always been the vehicle that set the tone for who Lexus was, and what we as consumers should expect. We need that again, even if it's not an "LS" in name, but I certainly think it could -- and should -- be.
I would like to add that we seem to forget about rumours considering Toyota Century. If it is true that Toyota Group plans to establish new ultra-luxury brand called Century positioned high above Lexus, it is fully understandable that they won't invest into new LS generation, because new flagship sedan will belong to the new brand.
At the same time, I still remember my Father's first Lexus LS in 2007. I swear, that car was The Chosen One.
At the same time, I still remember my Father's first Lexus LS in 2007. I swear, that car was The Chosen One.
Extremely valid point.
Toyota Creates Ultra-Luxury Century Brand Above Lexus
At Tokyo Auto Salon, Toyota debuted the Century brand to sit above Lexus.
www.forbes.com