Very insightful, thanks for that.Even the W223 S-Class has been a letdown compared to the legendary W222 chassis. I honestly think Mercedes-Benz created a car so good that not even they can replicate the magic of that car, at least for a few generations.
As of Q1 2024, the S-Class has been knocked down to THIRD place in the full-size luxury car class for the US market. What's second? The BMW 7-Series. First? Well you'd be surprised to hear that it's the Audi e-Tron GT.
Lexus is hanging on all-right despite it being a bit lackluster of a car. They can easily turn this around with the 6th generation and sell better than cars like the Taycan, and consolidate 4th place.
I personally don't think Lexus messed all that much up by making the car considerably more sporty and it having good driving characteristics. The market is moving towards that direction for luxury cars that aren't a Rolls-Royce or a Mercedes-Maybach. They won by having it sell more than the Panamera and the Quattroporte, which would be the kind of cars that the new LS would compete against. With that said, they used to sell a lot more with the old formula (it could also be the fact that the old LS came exclusively with a V8).
An ideal 6th generation LS for me would be if it moved more close to the original recipe, but still retained a lot of the sportiness that the 5th generation had. Personally I think the biggest dealbreaker for people was that the 5th generation did not have a V8, and I think a V8 as well as more competent hybrid powertrains would be fit for the 6th generation LS.
It's clear that whatever Lexus does, they need to go back to developing new ICE powertrains. There's no arguing around this.
Photo of the sales figures below from goodcarbadcar:
View attachment 9194
This🫡Even the W223 S-Class has been a letdown compared to the legendary W222 chassis. I honestly think Mercedes-Benz created a car so good that not even they can replicate the magic of that car, at least for a few generations.
As of Q1 2024, the S-Class has been knocked down to THIRD place in the full-size luxury car class for the US market. What's second? The BMW 7-Series. First? Well you'd be surprised to hear that it's the Audi e-Tron GT.
Lexus is hanging on all-right despite it being a bit lackluster of a car. They can easily turn this around with the 6th generation and sell better than cars like the Taycan, and consolidate 4th place.
I personally don't think Lexus messed all that much up by making the car considerably more sporty and it having good driving characteristics. The market is moving towards that direction for luxury cars that aren't a Rolls-Royce or a Mercedes-Maybach. They won by having it sell more than the Panamera and the Quattroporte, which would be the kind of cars that the new LS would compete against. With that said, they used to sell a lot more with the old formula (it could also be the fact that the old LS came exclusively with a V8).
An ideal 6th generation LS for me would be if it moved more close to the original recipe, but still retained a lot of the sportiness that the 5th generation had. Personally I think the biggest dealbreaker for people was that the 5th generation did not have a V8, and I think a V8 as well as more competent hybrid powertrains would be fit for the 6th generation LS.
It's clear that whatever Lexus does, they need to go back to developing new ICE powertrains. There's no arguing around this.
Photo of the sales figures below from goodcarbadcar:
View attachment 9194
edited for you.
Correction:
S and 7 series sell nearly 12k a piece
not to be rude here, but is keeping it simple what the target demo wants? I see a vocal LS owner on CL who now owns a S class. Hes a millennial realtor whose part enthusiast. His dad had every generation of the LS since project f1, bought new. He himself started at the ES and rose up to the GS, and then went through two 4th gens. When their LS460 lease ( was near completion they shopped the Ls500, S class W223, 7, and A8. The 7 and S came out on top, and i believe the s class was a bit more pricey but fell in love with sedan.It’s not the best report but it’s points to the simple things it does really well at. I for one don’t want a SCLASS or 7 or even G90 with all that gimmick crap.
I would ask Lexus "what time are they on?" Is Lexus going to leave the XF50 with minor improvements/refreshes forever like the XF40 or will we see successor come MY2025?The hell you on? Everything is negative about the brand with you. I would hope a brand new 7 series sells more. Before that the LS and 7 series traded months.
You said no one wants a big Lexus sedan. It still sells relatively decent in this class for an older vehicle.
I think its a difficult environment that Lexus and all mfgs in the super sedan market face. The market is up in the air with almost everything, ie do folks want an ikea special super screenified interior or do they want a more classical wood grain and a central screen? Will a V8 be necessary when a 6 cylinder or pure EV is better on paper? Do customers still care for comfort or only want something that carves corners? Are we as a brand still going all in on EV by 2030 or have timelines been pushed?@Flagship1 can’t argue any of this. All great points. I guess that’s the 5LS main issue. Identity crises. Who is it really for??? I guess that’s why Lexus hasn’t done anything because themselves don’t know where to start to solve the issue.
not to be rude here, but is keeping it simple what the target demo wants? I see a vocal LS owner on CL who now owns a S class. Hes a millennial realtor whose part enthusiast. His dad had every generation of the LS since project f1, bought new. He himself started at the ES and rose up to the GS, and then went through two 4th gens. When their LS460 lease ( was near completion they shopped the Ls500, S class W223, 7, and A8. The 7 and S came out on top, and i believe the s class was a bit more pricey but fell in love with sedan.
When asked about the LS, his writeup mentioned lack of the rear legroom, v8, suspension thats not composed, and a vehicle thats confused by its own identity; Is it a panamera competitor or a S class competitor?
Even the W223 S-Class has been a letdown compared to the legendary W222 chassis. I honestly think Mercedes-Benz created a car so good that not even they can replicate the magic of that car, at least for a few generations.
As of Q1 2024, the S-Class has been knocked down to THIRD place in the full-size luxury car class for the US market. What's second? The BMW 7-Series. First? Well you'd be surprised to hear that it's the Audi e-Tron GT.
Lexus is hanging on all-right despite it being a bit lackluster of a car. They can easily turn this around with the 6th generation and sell better than cars like the Taycan, and consolidate 4th place.
I personally don't think Lexus messed all that much up by making the car considerably more sporty and it having good driving characteristics. The market is moving towards that direction for luxury cars that aren't a Rolls-Royce or a Mercedes-Maybach. They won by having it sell more than the Panamera and the Quattroporte, which would be the kind of cars that the new LS would compete against. With that said, they used to sell a lot more with the old formula (it could also be the fact that the old LS came exclusively with a V8).
An ideal 6th generation LS for me would be if it moved more close to the original recipe, but still retained a lot of the sportiness that the 5th generation had. Personally I think the biggest dealbreaker for people was that the 5th generation did not have a V8, and I think a V8 as well as more competent hybrid powertrains would be fit for the 6th generation LS.
It's clear that whatever Lexus does, they need to go back to developing new ICE powertrains. There's no arguing around this.
Photo of the sales figures below from goodcarbadcar:
View attachment 9194
Yes and no. Mercedes has been seemingly hell-bent on cheapening their image for a while, but the good news for them is that people who aren't into cars didn't mind as long as they can all get GLAs at Camry prices. There's an opportunity there, but the only manufacturer really leaning hard into traditional luxury outside of the S Class is Lucid.I think Mercedes design language is “regal.” If you want people to know you have money you don’t mess around you just go and buy an S-class. It doesn’t matter if competitors have a better engine or not, even people who aren’t into cars can appreciate that someone drives a Mercedes.
There may be contentions about the exterior and interior design of the W223, but to say the W223 chassis being inferior than that of the W222 is an overstatement. I looked up on medias and independent testings (particularly the ones from Chinese media where they pitted the W223 against its predecessor and 7er / A8), all came to the same conclusion that the W223 had retained its comfort level against W222 (measured with G meter), whilst improved upon its handling capability and inch closer to G12. When the LS first came out, they particularly emphasized how it was a lot sportier, but it was partly because it was made in comparison to its own (previous generation). Perhaps the F-Sport variant outperformed the W222, but it never really surpassed G11, and even then the W222 wasn't that bad dynamically to begin with. The W223 is truly a benchmark in every department, not just the surface level but also in chassis tuning. The LS just couldn't find its own identity. Does it want to be sporty? If so, can it reach the same level or surpass the competition? If not, does it win in powertrain, gas mileage, space, nvh, tech, or anything? I think you get the idea.
Check out this particular footage if you haven't seen it before.
It's truly an impressive engineering feat, for it to handle like a sports GT, carrying almost 2.2 tons of weight with very long wheelbase.
The 7 series got good numbers because the i7 is also included?
Extremely valid point.I would like to add that we seem to forget about rumours considering Toyota Century. If it is true that Toyota Group plans to establish new ultra-luxury brand called Century positioned high above Lexus, it is fully understandable that they won't invest into new LS generation, because new flagship sedan will belong to the new brand.
At the same time, I still remember my Father's first Lexus LS in 2007. I swear, that car was The Chosen One.