5th Generation (2018+) Lexus LS 500 & LS 500h Megathread

[CRSKTN]

Lexus was once Toyota’s cherished child, but now it feels like an orphan.

I doubt it ever was. I bet you it burned Toyota deeply that they had to workshop an entirely new brand identity to be able to pass for luxury because "Toyota wasn't good enough".

Unfortunately for them, using Lexus as a testing ground for ideas and tech too risky to be a Toyota just meant Lexus was the only thing people cared about or had passion for in TMC. So they would take whatever Lexus proved up and corporatize it and ruin it and let Toyota cannabilize it.

All of Toyota's best, most brand building products were skunk works or opportunistic projects that weren't made terrible by the "if-beige-was-a-person" deadweight human beings warehoused in the Japanese jobs program that is TMC.

I refuse to believe that when doing the design competitions for recent models Toyota of Camry & Sienna that it wasn't intentional to go with designs aping touches from cars like the LC and LS (like the rear light shape and treatments).

Get people to pay a premium for something, shamelessly lift from those products for your down market offerings which you will also dedicate more resources to, laugh at your customers, cut corners on the next generation, use momentum and reputation to release more corner cutting minor refreshes, laugh at your customers, get backlash, atrophy your key models while simultaneously tying to maintain positioning in the market, laugh at your customers, use those product shortcomings to shoehorn toyota/crown/century offerings in their place, and so on.

 

[Flagship1]

I doubt it ever was. I bet you it burned Toyota deeply that they had to workshop an entirely new brand identity to be able to pass for luxury because "Toyota wasn't good enough".

Unfortunately for them, using Lexus as a testing ground for ideas and tech too risky to be a Toyota just meant Lexus was the only thing people cared about or had passion for in TMC. So they would take whatever Lexus proved up and corporatize it and ruin it and let Toyota cannabilize it.

All of Toyota's best, most brand building products were skunk works or opportunistic projects that weren't made terrible by the "if-beige-was-a-person" deadweight human beings warehoused in the Japanese jobs program that is TMC.

I refuse to believe that when doing the design competitions for recent models Toyota of Camry & Sienna that it wasn't intentional to go with designs aping touches from cars like the LC and LS (like the rear light shape and treatments).

Get people to pay a premium for something, shamelessly lift from those products for your down market offerings which you will also dedicate more resources to, laugh at your customers, cut corners on the next generation, use momentum and reputation to release more corner cutting minor refreshes, laugh at your customers, get backlash, atrophy your key models while simultaneously tying to maintain positioning in the market, laugh at your customers, use those product shortcomings to shoehorn toyota/crown/century offerings in their place, and so on.

If Toyota believes they are going to upsell centurys in the north american market, they should study maybach when it relaunched and now.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Not being called Toyota obviously burns Akio (the decline of Lexus neatly lines up with his ascension to president of Toyota), but I'm not sure that was (or is) a widespread opinion at TMC. And if Century is a brand that would presumably have the same problem. (I assume they wouldn't call it the "Toyota Century" and then sell it at Lexus dealers, but who knows).

In related news my lease was up so I have a '24 LS now. Had to take Caviar to get the Luxury package which I wasn't initially super happy about but when I actually saw it in the sunlight I loved it. With some caveats (interior room, lack of mythical TTV8) this is the car the '18 should have been. LSS 3+ and Lexus Interface are massive improvements over the previous versions, and the self-parking does work, if slowly. The ability to change the climate settings when you remote start is obvious Tesla envy but I'm happy to have it. The wireless phone charger, wireless CarPlay, and phone-as-a-key stuff all make it feel finally like Toyota's actually paying attention on the tech features.

 

[Falcon]

Here is the website for the Century in China. It is branded as 世极. There are zero references to Toyota. So naturally it will be branded as just Century internationally. There are zero Toyota badges on a Century even in Japan and they are starting to separate it from Toyota over there.

 

[Gecko]

Not being called Toyota obviously burns Akio (the decline of Lexus neatly lines up with his ascension to president of Toyota), but I'm not sure that was (or is) a widespread opinion at TMC. And if Century is a brand that would presumably have the same problem. (I assume they wouldn't call it the "Toyota Century" and then sell it at Lexus dealers, but who knows).

In related news my lease was up so I have a '24 LS now. Had to take Caviar to get the Luxury package which I wasn't initially super happy about but when I actually saw it in the sunlight I loved it. With some caveats (interior room, lack of mythical TTV8) this is the car the '18 should have been. LSS 3+ and Lexus Interface are massive improvements over the previous versions, and the self-parking does work, if slowly. The ability to change the climate settings when you remote start is obvious Tesla envy but I'm happy to have it. The wireless phone charger, wireless CarPlay, and phone-as-a-key stuff all make it feel finally like Toyota's actually paying attention on the tech features.

Congrats! Share some pics if you can. I love Caviar but I'm partial

 

[mediumhot]

I restrained on commenting on the Century SUV cause there is very little info about it but what the heck now. I know they tried really their best to give it ultra-premium flagship SUV road presence but the freaking wheelbase and FWD proportions just make it look like two door Range Rover. These little details matter. This thing might fly in Asia but in Western markets a big nope.

 

[Flagship1]

Here is the website for the Century in China. It is branded as 世极. There are zero references to Toyota. So naturally it will be branded as just Century internationally. There are zero Toyota badges on a Century even in Japan and they are starting to separate it from Toyota over there.

Century is an established marque in Asian markets. Literally everywhere/elsewhere they would need to convince each buyer in that demo, that their product is not just a more reliable Culinan carbon copy.

No offense to the incredible product that is the century, but this would be an effort the size of when Toyota introduced Lexus to the US market and launched the F1 program. Lots of capital investment with near zero room for error. I wish them the best, but they really need to start poaching hypercar fame sales and marketing talent to get this off the ground.

 

[mediumhot]

Century is an established marque in Asian markets. Literally everywhere/elsewhere they would need to convince each buyer in that demo, that their product is not just a more reliable Culinan carbon copy.

No offense to the incredible product that is the century, but this would be an effort the size of when Toyota introduced Lexus to the US market and launched the F1 program. Lots of capital investment with near zero room for error. I wish them the best, but they really need to start poaching hypercar fame sales and marketing talent to get this off the ground.

They tried with bespoke & ultimate high end vehicle LFA and they couldn't move a needle when it came to marketing break through and positioning shift that they expected before and after the launch. LFA built its legacy on its own because it was indeed the ultimate flagship product that did not cut any corners, but it took almost a whole decade to come to that point while Lexus sales and brand marketing & positioning needed that from 2008 to 2012 in order to drive the brand into hyper space territory. Outcome? Upcoming "LFA successor" that was born like Toyota ends up being Toyota again to try to position and break through GR performance brand. Something they already tried with LFA and F brand. Can we place bets if they have learned their lesson?

 

[CRSKTN]

Not being called Toyota obviously burns Akio (the decline of Lexus neatly lines up with his ascension to president of Toyota), but I'm not sure that was (or is) a widespread opinion at TMC. And if Century is a brand that would presumably have the same problem. (I assume they wouldn't call it the "Toyota Century" and then sell it at Lexus dealers, but who knows).

In related news my lease was up so I have a '24 LS now. Had to take Caviar to get the Luxury package which I wasn't initially super happy about but when I actually saw it in the sunlight I loved it. With some caveats (interior room, lack of mythical TTV8) this is the car the '18 should have been. LSS 3+ and Lexus Interface are massive improvements over the previous versions, and the self-parking does work, if slowly. The ability to change the climate settings when you remote start is obvious Tesla envy but I'm happy to have it. The wireless phone charger, wireless CarPlay, and phone-as-a-key stuff all make it feel finally like Toyota's actually paying attention on the tech features.

Century has lots of brand cache in Japan. It's typical Japanese blinders-on nationalism. They think it should be that way globally vs Lexus.

Surprise! Nobody gives a s***!

You think you're going to neglect your customers for 2 decades and then expect to sell a car for double the highest priced offering you currently have?

Sure, let me just waste an afternoon being ignored by mediocre, reads-below-a-6th-grade-level morons so I can hand them a fat cheque at the end of the day.

Then i'll go home and punch myself in the b**** because apparently I am an idiot as is everyone they think will go for this.

Show up to my house in kimonos and bowing and yeah, maybe i'll consider it.

Until then Aston Martin isn't treating their customers like passionless consumer-bots these days I hear.
That's the nature of your competition.

 

[ssun30]

In China they charge ¥50k ($7000) for the drink cooler. How is it not standard?

At least their company strategy of fleecing customers is consistent from the bottom to the top.

Oh I just checked the charging cable need to be optioned for ¥7500 ($1100).

 

[Motor]

 

[mikeavelli]

A friend just picked up a clean one for 35k… 2018… Crazy to think that.. that’s Corolla money lol

 

[CRSKTN]

Yeah ive been looking too theyre way underpriced

 

[Kelvin2020]

With the ES taking on a new ‘Global Flagship’ role, it’s pretty obvious that the LS is going away soon, and to me that signals an accelerating decline for Lexus. To make it worse, the rumor that the LS might return as an SUV based on the Century is absolutely outrageous. You simply can’t expect customers to spend over $100K on a fwd product, and the fact that this is supposed to be the brand’s flagship? They should be ashamed

 

[sl0519]

With the ES taking on a new ‘Global Flagship’ role, it’s pretty obvious that the LS is going away soon, and to me that signals an accelerating decline for Lexus. To make it worse, the rumor that the LS might return as an SUV based on the Century is absolutely outrageous. You simply can’t expect customers to spend over $100K on a fwd product, and the fact that this is supposed to be the brand’s flagship? They should be ashamed

Anyone with a clear head jumped ship long ago. All those jaw-droppingly good cars that showed up in waves over the past decade - the LFA, IS-F, GS-F, LC500, 3rd IS, 4th GS - are just fond memories now.

 

[Gecko]

The only problem for me with picking up an LS 500 (now that they're cheap), is I think I'd rather have an LS 460 over an LS 500, and I might prefer an LS 430 over an LS 460.

LS 500 in may ways has been the worst LS, because it is the most compromised and least focused in the "LS" mission.

 

[ssun30]

I'd argue the reason to buy a LS500 is the interior trims on the very high end models, if you can find one. These are some of the most sophisticated traditional Japanese craftsmanship that you won't see even on a new Century. I don't know how practical these are in daily use. How well they hold up against normal wear and tear, and how expensive they are to maintain.

 

[Gecko]

With the ES taking on a new ‘Global Flagship’ role, it’s pretty obvious that the LS is going away soon, and to me that signals an accelerating decline for Lexus. To make it worse, the rumor that the LS might return as an SUV based on the Century is absolutely outrageous. You simply can’t expect customers to spend over $100K on a fwd product, and the fact that this is supposed to be the brand’s flagship? They should be ashamed

Anyone with a clear head jumped ship long ago. All those jaw-droppingly good cars that showed up in waves over the past decade - the LFA, IS-F, GS-F, LC500, 3rd IS, 4th GS - are just fond memories now.

A few thoughts:

• I think part of the reason we are seeing this resurgence in interest in used IS Fs, RC Fs, and GS Fs is that people are realizing no such cars will ever be built again and this is the last chance to get a V8 ICE Lexus. Those cars are special and outside of IS 500 and LC 500, the ship has sailed.
• Retirement of the LS is a watershed moment for Lexus. Some of us have been waving this flag and sounding the alert for a decade, but there have been other folks who have been unrealistically optimistic. I think they will see what's going on pretty soon...
• Toyota has developed a well documented playbook for dedicated Lexus models they want to kill - the same we saw for the GS, RC, all F products, now LS, and next the IS: Make minimal updates if any, extend the lifecycle, let the product age out such that sales drop off and then make the case that the model line is no longer viable. The end.
  • For Lexus to allow this to happen to the LS would have shocked me 10 years ago but not now with what we've seen over the last decade. The writing has been on the wall for a long time, and the 5LS is a great metaphor for how far Lexus has fallen.
  • The LS 500 isn't perfect, but it was a great chassis and starting point to work from. Lexus absolutely could have put in more work to make it relevant, but instead all they did was add a stick-on tablet to the dash and try to reduce the turbo lag. No LS 500 FSP with the V8, no iForce MAX hybrid powertrain, no upgraded tune or additional power through the lifecycle, and the LS+ never amounted to anything more than an ill-timed, questionable concept.
• Toyota got fat, rich, and ignorant with the NX, RX, TX, ES, GX, and LX and decided nothing else matters. The shift to SUVs accelerated the business case to kill IS, GS, and LS, but the state of the current lineup is 100% a reflection of the fact that Toyota sees no value in dedicated Lexus products. GA-L could have been used for the LF-1 which is probably Lexus' single biggest missed opportunity over the last decade, but instead they decided the Toyota-interior GX, haphazard LX, and FWD TX could cover 50% of the market without the necessary cost of a net-new model with premium underpinnings.
• You've seen me and others joke about Lexus as "Toyota+" and I hope it's clear now that is obviously the go-forward strategy, whether it's platform engineering Toyota parts and platforms for Lexus vehicles or using Lexus dealers as a premium retail channel for the Century and GR GT3. Toyota no longer sees value or necessity in dedicated Lexus products. With the rise of Crown and Century on a global scale, Toyota has decided that their three core brands - Toyota, Crown, Century - are the priority players and Lexus has been relegated to an electric experimental sub-brand.

As hard as some of that may be to read, I still think there's an opportunity for Lexus to be a Tier 1 luxury brand again some day, but that depends entirely on how much BEV investment Toyota is willing to make in platforms, technology, and trying to be a leader in that space. If the last 15 years are any indication, Toyota isn't focused on anything other than squeezing every last dollar out of Lexus -- even at the expense of their brand image and buyer loyalty.

 

[Kelvin2020]

A few thoughts:

• I think part of the reason we are seeing this resurgence in interest in used IS Fs, RC Fs, and GS Fs is that people are realizing no such cars will ever be built again and this is the last chance to get a V8 ICE Lexus. Those cars are special and outside of IS 500 and LC 500, the ship has sailed.
• Retirement of the LS is a watershed moment for Lexus. Some of us have been waving this flag and sounding the alert for a decade, but there have been other folks who have been unrealistically optimistic. I think they will see what's going on pretty soon...
• Toyota has developed a well documented playbook for dedicated Lexus models they want to kill - the same we saw for the GS, RC, all F products, now LS, and next the IS: Make minimal updates if any, extend the lifecycle, let the product age out such that sales drop off and then make the case that the model line is no longer viable. The end.
  • For Lexus to allow this to happen to the LS would have shocked me 10 years ago but not now with what we've seen over the last decade. The writing has been on the wall for a long time, and the 5LS is a great metaphor for how far Lexus has fallen.
  • The LS 500 isn't perfect, but it was a great chassis and starting point to work from. Lexus absolutely could have put in more work to make it relevant, but instead all they did was add a stick-on tablet to the dash and try to reduce the turbo lag. No LS 500 FSP with the V8, no iForce MAX hybrid powertrain, no upgraded tune or additional power through the lifecycle, and the LS+ concept never amounted to anything more than an ill-timed, questionable concept.
• Toyota got fat, rich, and ignorant with the NX, RX, TX, ES, GX, and LX and decided nothing else matters. The shift to SUVs accelerated the business case to kill IS, GS, and LS, but the state of the current lineup is 100% a reflection of the fact that Toyota sees no value in dedicated Lexus products. GA-L could have been used for the LF-1 which is probably Lexus' single biggest missed opportunity over the last decade, but instead they decided the GX, haphazard LX, and FWD TX could cover 70% of the market without the necessary cost of a net-new model with premium underpinnings.
• You've seen me and others joke about Lexus as "Toyota+" and I hope it's clear now that is obviously the go-forward strategy, whether it's upscaling GA-K for things like the ES or using Lexus dealers as a premium retail channel for the Century and GR GT3. Toyota no longer sees value or necessity in dedicated Lexus products. With the rise of Crown and Century on a global scale, Toyota has decided that their three core brands - Toyota, Crown, Century - are the priority players and Lexus has been relegated to an electric experimental sub-brand.

As hard as some of that may be to read, I still think there's an opportunity for Lexus to be a Tier 1 luxury brand again some day, but that depends entirely on how much BEV investment Toyota is willing to make in platforms, technology, and trying to be a leader in that space. If the last 15 years are any indication, Toyota isn't focused on anything other than squeezing every last dollar out of Lexus -- even at the expense of their brand image and buyer loyalty.

As I watch other car brands continue to roll out exciting, high performance products that get enthusiasts talking, I can’t help but feel a growing sense of disappointment with Lexus. While others push boundaries, Lexus seems more focused than ever on churning out SUVs. I believe it’s time to admit this brand that once stood for “relentless pursuit of perfection” is settle for mediocrity. I used to defend Lexus, whenever someone called the brand boring, I’d be quick to point to the RC F, IS F, GS F, LC 500, and of course, the LFA cars that proved Lexus could be more than just “boring” luxury brand. Back then, I really believed Lexus was just misunderstood.

Just like you, I still believe that one day, the true Lexus will return. The only question is how long will we have to wait? No one really knows.

 

[CRSKTN]

They will realize the mistake they are making, but it will be too late.