Toyota C-HR (New, Cheaper LE/XLE Trims Added for 2019)

spwolf

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Size-wise the C-HR is in between the CX-3/HR-V/etc and the RAV4/CR-V/etc. It's bigger than any competitor in the subcompact CUV segment, but smaller than a compact CUV. So it's in a unique position size-wise, but is still noticeably smaller than a Rav4, and does not compete with the Rav4 for a number of reasons.
it is basically based on same platform as future Rav4, just made deliberately smaller than Rav4 with much shorter overhangs.
It makes it heavier than competition since it has much more sophisticated suspension and interior, but that also makes it much nicer. Interior wise back seat is surprisingly spacious, it is just the trunk that is smaller actually.

And I am surprised USA does not get nice things from Europe... our black roof versions look like crazy and so does factory leather. Maybe next year version will be truly Toyota and not single spec Scion?

Real life just looks amazing.

 

mmcartalk

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Except for the C-HR's higher-stance, it reminds me somewhat of the Hyundai Veloster.



 

Ian Schmidt

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The Veloster lacks the exaggerated arch shape that the C-HR (and to a lesser extent the LC) has - it tries to imply it at the bottom of the doors, but it doesn't work.

Those Euro-spec C-HRs with the blacked out roof are super cool. Toyota US, get on the ball!
 
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TBH, there's too many dealbreakers for me to consider one with the way it comes...visually, it is doing a good job bringing in existing Toyota customers in the showroom, but a lot of us want the good options that all the other markets get (LED lights, moonroof, manual transmission, etc.). As mentioned by many outlets, not having Apple Carplay/Android Auto is a potential dealbreaker for many younger/millennial buyers (Not old).
 

Gecko

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I think time will tell, but I'm not sure that Toyota's pricing and placement of C-HR are correct. In a nutshell, it's heavy and expensive for what it is. Why does it weigh 300 lbs more than a Mazda CX-3 AWD?

There will be new trims coming - LE and Limited - as well as AWD and some of the premium features mentioned above. I can see a "reasonably optioned" C-HR AWD being $28k and that's fookin ridiculous, IMO. I hope the price of the LE model goes down to around $20k or so, closer to HR-V and CX-3.

I know others will raise the point of it having some nicer features than rivals, and thats fine, but this is still an entry level product - basically the CUV placeholder version of a Yaris. There will be plenty of people shopping in this market who don't care about independent rear suspension and things like that, but are just looking to spend $23k OTD for a subcompact crossover.

What is next? $30k Rav4 LE?
 

mikeavelli

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I think time will tell, but I'm not sure that Toyota's pricing and placement of C-HR are correct. In a nutshell, it's heavy and expensive for what it is. Why does it weigh 300 lbs more than a Mazda CX-3 AWD?

There will be new trims coming - LE and Limited - as well as AWD and some of the premium features mentioned above. I can see a "reasonably optioned" C-HR AWD being $28k and that's fookin ridiculous, IMO. I hope the price of the LE model goes down to around $20k or so, closer to HR-V and CX-3.

I know others will raise the point of it having some nicer features than rivals, and thats fine, but this is still an entry level product - basically the CUV placeholder version of a Yaris. There will be plenty of people shopping in this market who don't care about independent rear suspension and things like that, but are just looking to spend $23k OTD for a subcompact crossover.

What is next? $30k Rav4 LE?
I hear you but it seems people will pay for it. People want SUVs. This thing looks pretty damn amazing in person. I'm sure they will sell every last one.
 
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http://www.autonews.com/article/20180312/RETAIL01/180319968/toyota-chr-still-playing-catch-up
Toyota's C-HR still playing catch-up

DALLAS — Toyota had high hopes for the stylish C-HR subcompact crossover when it joined the fast-growing segment last year, but the experience in the U.S. has shown that looks are only skin deep.

While the brand's first cute-ute has been a resounding hit in Europe and Japan, something got lost in translation when it was brought to North America, putting it at a disadvantage as competitors multiplied.

With Lexus showing off its new UX, a platform partner of the C-HR, at the Geneva auto show, the automaker will have another shot to get the entry-level crossover right for the key U.S. market, analysts said.

Not that the C-HR doesn't have potential, but sales have fallen short of expectations since the vehicle arrived last spring, and it's been a bit of an outlier for Toyota.

Toyota's other mainstream offerings generally sit in the sweet spot in their segments, with the Corolla, RAV4, Camry and Highlander generally in the top two slots, while the C-HR sits in seventh so far this year behind the Mitsubishi Outlander Sport.

Toyota expected the C-HR to quickly hit 5,000 sales a month, but it has fallen significantly short since its 2017 introduction. Better supply from the factory in Turkey and financial incentives pushed sales to a monthly best of 4,420 in February, and the segment has more room for growth.

"We're fine with where the C-HR is. We're pretty pleased," Bill Fay, senior vice president of automotive operations for Toyota Motor North America, told Automotive News. Fay stressed that the C-HR is a brand-new model that has been out for less than a year. "We had to build up some awareness and purchase intention for a new model."

Most of the C-HR's problems, auto analysts say, stem from the fact that it wasn't designed as a Toyota in the first place. For the U.S., the C-HR was headed for Scion dealerships before Toyota pulled the plug on its youth-oriented brand in 2016.

Toyotas generally have trim levels, powertrain choices and an options list to match buyers' budgets. Scions came in mono-spec trims, meaning almost no options. Equipment levels generally landed in a middle ground in pursuit of a value proposition.

"It's a product that was intended for the Scion brand, and that means they made product-planning decisions relative to the kind of content based on the Scion mono-spec approach," said Stephanie Brinley, a senior analyst at IHS Markit.

Small crossover buyers generally are looking for all-wheel drive to give their vehicle the capability that comes with a light truck. They're also looking for some creature comforts and minimal performance levels.

The C-HR comes only in front-wheel drive in North America, while some European versions spin all four tires. Stateside, there's no navigation option for the infotainment system, no leather seats, no premium sound system, no Apple CarPlay or Android Auto integration and no optional engines.

Europe gets a small turbocharged gas motor, a hybrid option and a manual or automatic gearbox.

While those might not be the best options for the U.S. and its low gas prices, the lone four-cylinder engine and continuously variable automatic gearbox are light on acceleration and heavy on noise.

That's a bit disappointing, given that the C-HR runs on a new global platform with strong handling dynamics for the class and a bolder — if polarizing — design that marks a more emotional direction for the brand.

"Looks are in the eye of the beholder," said Brinley. "Some people like it, and some people won't. A stronger powertrain could be a helpful thing."

While subcompact crossovers are generally bigger segments in Europe and Japan, the U.S. market is significant. Sales rose to 563,763 in 2017 from 171,184 in 2014, according to the Automotive News Data Center. Brinley says there is still room for moderate growth this year.

On the bright side for the C-HR, Toyota dealers say its curvy sheet metal has brought younger shoppers to the showroom, and Toyota executives say modifications will be made to better adapt to the U.S.

"We're working on the whole grade strategy and how we define that going forward," said Fay. "We'll have an evolution with C-HR like we do all of our other products once we get some sales experience and some customer feedback on it."
 

Gecko

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I have spoken to some dealers about the C-HR and hear the same three things:
1) Not having AWD is a major mistake. Many buyers above the Mason Dixon line want it and Toyota doesn't offer it
2) It's too expensive. Despite the fact that it has premium features like IRS and full safety tech, that doesn't seem to be really worth $3-5k extra to your average shopper
3) Following up on the above, they need to restructure the trim levels and will be introducing LE and Limited trims this year

Personally, I think they should have scrapped the C-HR and just introduced the FT-4X. Buyers want CUVs, yes, but they want them to look butch and drive like cars. FT-4X does this in spades. C-HR looks like a hatchback with 2 extra inches of ground clearance and also has a lot of inherent space constraints because of the shape and packaging. Look at the sales success of the 4Runner and Highlander after they made the 3rd gen so much more masculine looking. Look at the concepts/mules for the new Rav4. Toyota knows what consumers want... C-HR just seems to quirky and compromised.

There is still a place for C-HR, don't get me wrong. But FT-4X would have been the better product for North America (and probably much of the rest of the world, too).

 

spwolf

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I have spoken to some dealers about the C-HR and hear the same three things:
1) Not having AWD is a major mistake. Many buyers above the Mason Dixon line want it and Toyota doesn't offer it
2) It's too expensive. Despite the fact that it has premium features like IRS and full safety tech, that doesn't seem to be really worth $3-5k extra to your average shopper
3) Following up on the above, they need to restructure the trim levels and will be introducing LE and Limited trims this year

Personally, I think they should have scrapped the C-HR and just introduced the FT-4X. Buyers want CUVs, yes, but they want them to look butch and drive like cars. FT-4X does this in spades. C-HR looks like a hatchback with 2 extra inches of ground clearance and also has a lot of inherent space constraints because of the shape and packaging. Look at the sales success of the 4Runner and Highlander after they made the 3rd gen so much more masculine looking. Look at the concepts/mules for the new Rav4. Toyota knows what consumers want... C-HR just seems to quirky and compromised.

There is still a place for C-HR, don't get me wrong. But FT-4X would have been the better product for North America (and probably much of the rest of the world, too).

Gecko, CHR has quickly become the most successful new Toyota vehicle in decades, worldwide. Just because NA has different requirements does not mean they should not offer it there. They will get their 50k units in 2018 with attractive leases and sure awd and more trims would do a little bit better but nothing sensational because they would make it more expensive than Rav4.

NA measures vehicle by yard and CHR would never do really good, just like UX wont.... but same reason makes it so successful in other countries as Toyotas first genuine premium vehicle outside Japan.

They sold 260k last year worldwide and thats without China and with lower supply to NA as well as late introduction to other markets.

It will sell much less in Japan this year, due to not being a new thing anymore, but it will still end up selling over 300k worldwide, close to Yaris numbers or even better, essentially becoming 5th best selling Toyota worldwide.
 

mmcartalk

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Regardless of its market, I have to agree with Gecko that not having AWD is a mistake. Even the dealers are complaining. AWD is one of the things that makes a CUV a CUV.
 

spwolf

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Regardless of its market, I have to agree with Gecko that not having AWD is a mistake. Even the dealers are complaining. AWD is one of the things that makes a CUV a CUV.
it is not an suv, it has low ground clearance, their western european awd take cant be more than 5% and i bet it is even less since hybrid doesnt have it and petrol forces cvt with awd which makes price astronomical andhigher than hybrid... it isnt even offered in most markets ... so with all the options and awd, that would all lead to more expensive price, i doubt it would sell 10% more in the usa.

it is a vehicle that by design is limited in the usa and nothing will fix that when they have rav4 priced very well and selling over 400k per year.



it will be very similar situation with UX priced so close to NX, while NX is larger, has bigger engine and awd.

Question is if Toyota and Lexus want additional 60k and 20k sales in the usa for these two vehicles, and of course they do, but they are not main markets and nothing can change that.

Similar situation for upcoming Auris, it will also have only 10% of Corolla US sales but will be much nicer car, nothing can fix the price question is just should they offer it or not.
 

Gecko

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Gecko, CHR has quickly become the most successful new Toyota vehicle in decades, worldwide. Just because NA has different requirements does not mean they should not offer it there. They will get their 50k units in 2018 with attractive leases and sure awd and more trims would do a little bit better but nothing sensational because they would make it more expensive than Rav4.

NA measures vehicle by yard and CHR would never do really good, just like UX wont.... but same reason makes it so successful in other countries as Toyotas first genuine premium vehicle outside Japan.

They sold 260k last year worldwide and thats without China and with lower supply to NA as well as late introduction to other markets.

It will sell much less in Japan this year, due to not being a new thing anymore, but it will still end up selling over 300k worldwide, close to Yaris numbers or even better, essentially becoming 5th best selling Toyota worldwide.
I understand it has been a success in other parts of the world, but their launch and packaging strategy here for North America has been a failure. Maybe NA market suffers because it's a more global product and there is less of a focus for NA - fine, this has happened elsewhere in reverse with cars like the Camry.

But the fact still stands here: C-HR is too expensive for what it is and the product planning was a miss. Thankfully, these are pretty easy things to fix.
 

spwolf

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I understand it has been a success in other parts of the world, but their launch and packaging strategy here for North America has been a failure. Maybe NA market suffers because it's a more global product and there is less of a focus for NA - fine, this has happened elsewhere in reverse with cars like the Camry.

But the fact still stands here: C-HR is too expensive for what it is and the product planning was a miss. Thankfully, these are pretty easy things to fix.
new trims will just add to the price, how exactly will offering awd make it cheaper? It wont. In reality it is small premium priced cuv from toyota, that sells much larger rav4 at very similar price.

It is not a very sensible vehicle, and thats what attracted europeans to it while also limiting it in us market.

Attractive lease is only thing that will help, offering a model with nav, awd and softex for 29k wont do much.

And sure, making it taller, normal looking with torsion beam rear suspension and Corolla interior inside would double the sales with the price under 20k and two things would happen:
a. it would sell substantially less worldwide and be dead in the water in europe, like HRV.
b. everyone wold complain about chep corolla interior and suspension.

It is nothing new, same mag is running a story today about 106 day supply and dealers starting to refuse new accord stock due to low sales despite wiing awards and comparos,while Camry is selling like hotcakes. Aperranly it needs much better entry level leases for base models, same thing that opened up market for chr in the past month.
 

mikeavelli

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Yeah, the article makes a good point how this was aimed for Scion then became Toyota and now product planners are rushing..

I really love the looks but it hasn't seem to catch quite on....

You know stuffing a really insane engine inside to get some attention would do the trick, and/or a very good hybrid.
 

ssun30

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The C-HR is indeed a very confusing product for the U.S. market, but it's not really a simple matter of restructuring the trim lineup. In EU/Japan the C-HR plays the 'quality in a small package' card, which apparently works well but increases cost at the same time. It has a confusing body style that is more of a cross between a hatchback and a coupe; it is by no means a SUV since it has less ground clearance than the Corolla. Again it somehow works.

But to succeed in the U.S. what they really need is a shrunk RAV4 with more cost cutting and a tough, offroady look. They basically need to make a modern version of the original SWB RAV4 (that thing can actually go offroad). TMC USA should seriously consider making such a vehicle to complement the RAV4. As the RAV4 moves towards the more family-friendly direction, a 'RAV4 Junior' is needed to maintain appeal to younger buyers. It will be a high volume model (we are talking about 100k units per year) instead of a novelty like the C-HR.

The AWD issue is really, really weird since they did not mention anything about torque vectoring AWD in the UX200 press text. It makes me wonder whether the C-HR leaves space for AWD at all.
 
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telithos

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Anyone know why the 2L in the U.S. has a curb weight of 3300lbs (1500 kg), while the 1.8L hybrid in Europe is listed as 3036-3212 lbs. (1380-1460kg)? Seems weird to me that the U.S. version with a naturally aspirated engine weighs considerably more than the Europe spec hybrid.
 

spwolf

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The C-HR is indeed a very confusing product for the U.S. market, but it's not really a simple matter of restructuring the trim lineup. In EU/Japan the C-HR plays the 'quality in a small package' card, which apparently works well but increases cost at the same time. It has a confusing body style that is more of a cross between a hatchback and a coupe; it is by no means a SUV since it has less ground clearance than the Corolla. Again it somehow works.

But to succeed in the U.S. what they really need is a shrunk RAV4 with more cost cutting and a tough, offroady look. They basically need to make a modern version of the original SWB RAV4 (that thing can actually go offroad). TMC USA should seriously consider making such a vehicle to complement the RAV4. As the RAV4 moves towards the more family-friendly direction, a 'RAV4 Junior' is needed to maintain appeal to younger buyers. It will be a high volume model (we are talking about 100k units per year) instead of a novelty like the C-HR.

The AWD issue is really, really weird since they did not mention anything about torque vectoring AWD in the UX200 press text. It makes me wonder whether the C-HR leaves space for AWD at all.
Yes ssun30, of course. It is small premium. It is actually pretty cuv looking thing in real life for Europe, more macho than Renaults or Suzuki variation for instance.

I think in south asia they have Rush that satisfies cheap but big CUV... while in western markets all they would do is lower their profit margin from Rav4 so they dont want to do that. I would not drive a Rush, even if it is a big thing for small money, but it is a necessity for those other (2nd and 3rd world) markets.




C-HR does have awd in Russia and parts of Europe, mated to CVT and 2.0l engine.

Again, it is a price thing for UX too and awd in the USA. I am sure it will have awd in Russia, a big market for Lexus.

Not every car has to do great everywhere. Toyota is happy with new Camry doing 3000 units in Japan per month for instance, it is very similar type of deal.
 

spwolf

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Anyone know why the 2L in the U.S. has a curb weight of 3300lbs (1500 kg), while the 1.8L hybrid in Europe is listed as 3036-3212 lbs. (1380-1460kg)? Seems weird to me that the U.S. version with a naturally aspirated engine weighs considerably more than the Europe spec hybrid.
different methodologies, dry weight, etc.
 

spwolf

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well, I would not drive current Rav4 either, so there is that, hah. C-HR is only current Toyota that I would drive, but even that does not satisfy completely until new 2.0l hybrid comes.
 

telithos

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well, I would not drive current Rav4 either, so there is that, hah. C-HR is only current Toyota that I would drive, but even that does not satisfy completely until new 2.0l hybrid comes.
I understand that completely. I switched to the RAV4 Hybrid a few years back due to reliability issues with my prior vehicle. It's been rock solid from a dependability standpoint, but it's definitely not a driver's car. Floaty-boaty, mediocre tire grip, non-existent steering feel, crashy suspension and weird acceleration are all good descriptors of the current RAV4 hybrid. It sounds like the new TNGA based vehicles like the C-HR and UX are supposed to address some of these issues.
 
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