Toyota BZ4X

[carguy420]

Let's be real, Top Gear spends so much time with fancy cars that they've probably loss touch with reality long time ago.

 

[spwolf]

"doesn't have a stand out USP"

What Toyota has one? What other Toyota rivals have one? Germans have badge, Tesla has Superchargers, range, performance and poor build quality. Toyota has always been "boring" bar some exceptions, Toyota will remain that way until the recipe works.

a lot of Toyotas do have great USP... for instance, in Europe that is hybrid system. A lot of people also love how Corolla, Rav4 and Yaris look too.

with BZ4X they are starting behind the best. Sure, similar to where others have started, but clearly not a market leader.
For instance, those previews that were shared in Europe also mentioned that regen is not strong enough to enable one pedal driving, etc.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Toyota bZ4X EV expected to top RAV4 in many ways, but not sales

The Toyota bZ4X will be superior to anything similar in Toyota's lineup in terms of torque, acceleration, rigidity, interior space, grip, safety and styling — but not sales potential.

www.autonews.com

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Toyota touts bZ4X EV — but not in sales​

SODEGAURA, Japan — Toyota seems a bit torn about its new bZ4X electric crossover, the automaker's first serious attempt to tap into the rapidly expanding electric vehicle world.

On one hand, Toyota touts the bZ4X as superior to anything similar in its lineup in terms of torque, acceleration, rigidity, interior space, grip, safety and styling. On the other, the world's biggest automaker seems oddly reserved about the model's sales prospects.

At an early test drive event outside Tokyo last week, Toyota dodged questions about how many it expects to build and sell after the bZ4X goes on sale in mid-2022.

Daisuke Ido, general manager of ZEV Factory where Toyota is developing a fleet of new EVs, would only say that volumes are expected to grow with wider EV adoption.

But Japan's Nikkei newspaper, citing suppliers familiar with Toyota's planning, reported that the automaker has targeted just 60,000 vehicles worldwide in the bZ4X's first year, and then a decline to about 50,000 the next. By comparison, Toyota sold 407,000 of the comparable RAV4 crossovers last year in the U.S. alone.

But Ido said the Nikkei's number is wrong. That is likely because the newspaper did not seem to account for China, where Toyota will build the bZ4X through its two local joint ventures.

"The volume isn't important, because in the future it's going to expand," Ido said.

But even if the new vehicle sells 100,000 or more worldwide, such volume is still small by Toyota's standards. And although it represents a huge leap from the 14,407 EVs that Toyota sold worldwide in 2021, the internal expectations show how far Toyota still has to go to reach its publicly stated goal of selling 3.5 million EVs a year by 2030.

The number also still pales next to the nearly 1 million Tesla sold last year.

Cautious

As another sign of cautiousness about the new EV, Toyota is planning to offer the bZ4X only through lease or subscription programs in Japan, where gasoline-electric hybrids still reign supreme. Doing so, Toyota says, will help "eliminate customer concerns about BEV."

Company spokeswoman Rina Naruke said "customers can enjoy the unique driving and the cabin spaciousness of BEV without worrying about battery performance deterioration, maintenance, trade-in value and others."

Steep stickers may also temper retail sales.

Toyota hasn't announced pricing for the U.S. But in the U.K., the bZ4X starts at £41,950 ($56,960) and tops out at a pricey £51,550 ($70,000) for the Premiere edition. That may serve as an indicator for pricing in other markets.

RAV4 rival

During the test drive, engineers repeatedly compared the bZ4X to Toyota's hero nameplate, the RAV4 hybrid. In virtually every spec, the full-electric topped the gasoline-electric vehicle.

The bZ4X has a lower center of gravity, faster acceleration, wider use of all-wheel-drive mode and better line tracing around bends. And because it uses awd technology supplied by Subaru Corp., which co-developed the vehicle and sells its own version called the Solterra, the bZ4X gets a new function called grip control. This lets the vehicle take over the driving on slippery hills, allowing drivers to take their feet off the brake and gas pedals to focus on the steering while the bZ4X navigates tough terrain.

The bZ4X is a little longer than the RAV4, and gets a longer wheelbase, wider body, lower roof and hood and shorter rear overhang. The dimensions opened more legroom in the rear seat, and combined with the flat floor, helped deliver a spacious cabin feel. They also create sleeker exterior proportions, along with wheel cladding that lends an oversized look to the tires.

The bZ4X also adopts a range of enhanced technological features. Cabin climate control was reworked for maximum efficiency by using a heat pump. And for the first time in a Toyota, radiant foot heating is used in the front seats. Select models in some markets will even get a solar roof panel.

New battery

The bZ4X will come with two steering options: One is the traditional, circular steering wheel. The other is a new Formula One-styled wing-shaped handle that connects via steer-by-wire technology.

Toyota says this one-motion control eliminates the need to change grips when negotiating U-turns, garage parking or winding roads. Steer-by-wire also eliminates annoying road vibration and creates more legroom because there is no steering column.

The bZ4X also gets a newly developed lithium ion water-cooled battery designed for long life. The advancement is much bigger, brick-sized cells. This allows Toyota to use fewer cells and a less complicated, lighter and more compact wiring system between them.

The bZ4X uses 96 cells, each packing about 0.74 kilowatt-hour of energy. In the Lexus UX, the other full EV in the company's lineup, the 288 cells each get 0.19 kWh.

The batteries for bZ4Xs built in China will be sourced from Chinese battery giant CATL. The batteries for bZ4Xs built at Toyota's Motomachi plant in Toyota City will come from both CATL and Prime Planet Energy & Solutions, a Toyota joint venture with Panasonic.

The bZ4X exhibited exhilarating spurts of acceleration, in true EV fashion, even though the vehicle runs 0 to 60 mph in only 7.2 seconds — not exactly sports car performance. Still, the handling was quick and rigid, thanks to a stiff new EV-only platform, low center of gravity and liberal use of high-tensile steel. The awd version, with one motor fore, the other aft, felt especially spunky. It's easy to understand why Toyota bills this as better than the RAV4 Hybrid.

Toyota says it will announce sales targets closer to the launch date.

 

[spwolf]

there is something like crawl control, but it is Toyota technology and not Subaru, according to some other reviews.

 

[ssun30]

One pedal driving is the thing I hate the most about many EVs. Used to drive a ChDM BMW X1 EV that has 75kW of regen power, absolutely made me sick. My driving style is lift-and-coast so I want no regen when lifting and progressive brake-enabled regen.

I don't know since when one pedal driving became fashionable. It's not the most efficient way to drive an EV and somehow people think stronger regen = better energy consumption.

"doesn't have a stand out USP"

What Toyota has one? What other Toyota rivals have one? Germans have badge, Tesla has Superchargers, range, performance and poor build quality. Toyota has always been "boring" bar some exceptions, Toyota will remain that way until the recipe works.

To be fair to them, supposedly BZ4X's biggest USP is battery durability. I always questioned whether that is a valid selling point because they can't prove it until many real world customers get over 300,000km on their BZ4X. Toyota is relying entirely on people's trust of their ICEVs to sell a completely new type of vehicle, and I doubt it could work.

 

[NXracer]

One pedal driving is the thing I hate the most about many EVs. Used to drive a ChDM BMW X1 EV that has 75kW of regen power, absolutely made me sick. My driving style is lift-and-coast so I want no regen when lifting and progressive brake-enabled regen.

I don't know since when one pedal driving became fashionable. It's not the most efficient way to drive an EV and somehow people think stronger regen = better energy consumption.

To be fair to them, supposedly BZ4X's biggest USP is battery durability. I always questioned whether that is a valid selling point because they can't prove it until many real world customers get over 300,000km on their BZ4X. Toyota is relying entirely on people's trust of their ICEVs to sell a completely new type of vehicle, and I doubt it could work.

Agreed. This battery pack warranty play is going to be interesting to see pan out.

 

[BenzCity]

I think the battery pack warranty kinda is the USP.

 

[spwolf]

One pedal driving is the thing I hate the most about many EVs. Used to drive a ChDM BMW X1 EV that has 75kW of regen power, absolutely made me sick. My driving style is lift-and-coast so I want no regen when lifting and progressive brake-enabled regen.

I don't know since when one pedal driving became fashionable. It's not the most efficient way to drive an EV and somehow people think stronger regen = better energy consumption.

Maybe BMW did it really wrong, but most EVs and especially ones that sell well, have really good implementation of one pedal driving.

EV owners that like their EVs, also will predominately use one foot driving.

Again, just like with 6.6kwh onboarding charging for first year, like with no frunk, like with less power and no bigger battery options, wrong regen options show their engineers do not drive EVs and they are approaching this from - we are making another Rav4 version.

It is just wrong way to approach it, and if they did it better we would have had more competitive product.

Just like with multimedia, lead of development needs to move to USA, where they can actually get product planners and manager with way more experience in EVs.

I am sure both EU and US TM subsidiaries are scratching their head at some of the decisions, and this is why 11kwh onboard charger is coming from November production, and all PRs in Europe are happy to announce this.

 

[Levi]

Battery is only one part of BEVs. All the rest, and it is not negligible, is the same as ICEVs.

 

[Motor]

 

[ssun30]

OK I see, the max regen power is 70kW from all four motors. That's relatively weak for one-pedal driving (~100kW is what you want). Looks like they want to keep regen just under 1C.

You can tell from the reviewer and comments that even Japanese people themselves (who always despise Korean vehicles) feel disappointed that it's overshadowed by IONIQ 5. As for ChDM, yes it is considered trash too because of how many spec-sheet EVs people can choose from.

Now the RZ really needs some quality that will at least make reviewers feel neutral about it. BZ4X so far has only received negative coverage.

 

[carguy420]

Who cares about what reviewers think about the BZ4X, what truly matters is that regular consumers like what they are seeing, feeling and the brand's reputation, if scoring a perfect 10/10 in your typical car reviews is the thing that really sells cars, Toyota wouldn't even be anywhere near as successful as they are today.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Who cares about what reviewers think about the BZ4X, what truly matters is that regular consumers like what they are seeing, feeling and the brand's reputation, if scoring a perfect 10/10 in your typical car reviews is the thing that really sells cars, Toyota wouldn't even be anywhere near as successful as they are today.

I feel like consumers will not be too happy about the BZ4X being a bit slow, despite it handling pretty well. RZ will be the saving grace.

 

[Levi]

I feel like consumers will not be too happy about the BZ4X being a bit slow, despite it handling pretty well. RZ will be the saving grace.

To be honest, every Toyota/Lexus is a bit slow, even V8 compared to competitors. The only fast Toyota/Lexus is the Toyota Supra.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

To be honest, every Toyota/Lexus is a bit slow, even V8 compared to competitors. The only fast Toyota/Lexus is the Toyota Supra.

I mean, the GR86 and the RAV4 Prime are plenty quick. So are cars like the Camry and Tundra. Lexus has some great vehicles with adequate 0-60 times.

But for a big EV SUV that makes 215 horsepower, that can be pretty weak.

 

[NXracer]

I feel like consumers will not be too happy about the BZ4X being a bit slow, despite it handling pretty well. RZ will be the saving grace.

The BZ4x/Soltera will be up against the ID series, MachE and Ioniq5 at least in some trim levels and in those price targets speed will not be a concern.

The BZ4x has to perform well as a practical econobox appliance, like the rav 4.

Who cares about what reviewers think about the BZ4X, what truly matters is that regular consumers like what they are seeing, feeling and the brand's reputation, if scoring a perfect 10/10 in your typical car reviews is the thing that really sells cars, Toyota wouldn't even be anywhere near as successful as they are today.

The mainstream EV market is nascent, and requires "review-optimized" vehicles to really drive home why one should leave their Rav4/ICE for this new model. The more buzzwords you can throw at a customer the better it is to help them agree with your sales pitch. I'd say PR circles want more of the "hungry" toyota of the 70-80s rather then rest on my laurels ad budgets of the 2010s.

@spwolf brings up some valid points being an EV owner. The EV program targets will evolve once Toyota gets some meaningful feedback from their "beta testers" in both the econo/mainstream (BZ) and luxury brands (RZ). They're also imho trying to see the outer limits of wants vs wishes of their customers at each level. What options work and what don't.

 

[spwolf]

OK I see, the max regen power is 70kW from all four motors. That's relatively weak for one-pedal driving (~100kW is what you want). Looks like they want to keep regen just under 1C.

You can tell from the reviewer and comments that even Japanese people themselves (who always despise Korean vehicles) feel disappointed that it's overshadowed by IONIQ 5. As for ChDM, yes it is considered trash too because of how many spec-sheet EVs people can choose from.

Now the RZ really needs some quality that will at least make reviewers feel neutral about it. BZ4X so far has only received negative coverage.

we cant spin it, in the end, it is 1st gen vs 2nd gen for Hyundai. And it shows.

Not that Hyundai is perfect, it is not... but you can see its engineers drove Kona for last 5-6 years.

 

[spwolf]

Battery is only one part of BEVs. All the rest, and it is not negligible, is the same as ICEVs.

powertrain - battery + motors is one part yes... but then it also allows for better packaging and reimagining of what goes where (frunk, interior space, deep under trunk storage) - that is just the basic... if you are new company, then you dont have to be a slave to what you did for past 100 years, and you can design all new HMI interface, like Tesla. And you can have better range because you control most of your electronics and you can combine multiple systems and increase efficiencies. Since you control it all, then your OS controls it all and you can also update it all via OTA and give users update for all of their systems continiously.

Or build amazing storage solutions like Rivian. All of that you can do with large batteries and powerful motors, so you are faster than M4's of yesterday.

p.s. if you ever saw EV in your life, you also figure out you do not need power button to turn it on. You also do no need keys, and do not have to pay extra for your cell phone to have primitive support for it as a key.

So lots of work ahead and lots of things to add to gen 2. And they are actually adding this, TMC already announced that they are working on many things listed above.

 

[ssun30]

To be honest, every Toyota/Lexus is a bit slow, even V8 compared to competitors. The only fast Toyota/Lexus is the Toyota Supra.

What's different here, as that Japanese reviewer pointed out, is BZ4X does not compare favorably against RAV4 PHV. It offers very little over that, plus all the negatives of an EV.

When the RAV4 PHV launched, every review said it would be extremely good, and till this day no car maker has an answer to it (and NX450h+). The market responded very positively as well. If Toyota prices the BZ4X similar to RAV4 PHV, dealers will have to try very hard to convince people to buy the harder to live with, slower, maybe less reliable option.

 

[Levi]

powertrain - battery + motors is one part yes... but then it also allows for better packaging and reimagining of what goes where (frunk, interior space, deep under trunk storage) - that is just the basic... if you are new company, then you dont have to be a slave to what you did for past 100 years, and you can design all new HMI interface, like Tesla. And you can have better range because you control most of your electronics and you can combine multiple systems and increase efficiencies. Since you control it all, then your OS controls it all and you can also update it all via OTA and give users update for all of their systems continiously.

Or build amazing storage solutions like Rivian. All of that you can do with large batteries and powerful motors, so you are faster than M4's of yesterday.

p.s. if you ever saw EV in your life, you also figure out you do not need power button to turn it on. You also do no need keys, and do not have to pay extra for your cell phone to have primitive support for it as a key.

So lots of work ahead and lots of things to add to gen 2. And they are actually adding this, TMC already announced that they are working on many things listed above.

I was talking purely about hardware. BEVs also have everything related to wheels (brakes, suspension, etc.) and electronic chips everywhere, which are the main cause for unreliability in cars. The only thing BEVs won't need is oil change and further on any reparation related to engine/transmission. But the rest? Same problems, plus surprise 20K battery change.
In see on the webs 'BEV = more reliable because fewer parts, Maserati BEV = even less reliable than ICEV Maserati because more electronic'. That is some weird logic.

Leasing, is a world I don't want to live in, so not an excuse. Leasing is bad for the planet. Anyone telling the contrary is a deceitful hypocrite.