Toyota BZ4X

[Will1991]

(...)maybe less reliable option.

Could you elaborate on this please? I'm not seeing any breakthrough technology on this and it seems to be tuned for durability above all, what makes you think about any reliability issue?

 

[NXracer]

I was talking purely about hardware. BEVs also have everything related to wheels (brakes, suspension, etc.) and electronic chips everywhere, which are the main cause for unreliability in cars. The only thing BEVs won't need is oil change and further on any reparation related to engine/transmission. But the rest? Same problems, plus surprise 20K battery change.
In see on the webs 'BEV = more reliable because fewer parts, Maserati BEV = even less reliable than ICEV Maserati because more electronic'. That is some weird logic.

Leasing, is a world I don't want to live in, so not an excuse. Leasing is bad for the planet. Anyone telling the contrary is a deceitful hypocrite.

Leasing is how luxury mfgs exist in the US domestic market; even with famed reliability 60% of Lexus vehicles customers lease rather then outright purchase. In other global markets this is markedly different I assume.

 

[spwolf]

I was talking purely about hardware. BEVs also have everything related to wheels (brakes, suspension, etc.) and electronic chips everywhere, which are the main cause for unreliability in cars. The only thing BEVs won't need is oil change and further on any reparation related to engine/transmission. But the rest? Same problems, plus surprise 20K battery change.
In see on the webs 'BEV = more reliable because fewer parts, Maserati BEV = even less reliable than ICEV Maserati because more electronic'. That is some weird logic.

Leasing, is a world I don't want to live in, so not an excuse. Leasing is bad for the planet. Anyone telling the contrary is a deceitful hypocrite.

ah, i think big difference is that EVs are new tech and constantly improved, so you get a bit of unreliability due to that. They also get some extra complexity from charging systems that dont usually work well.

Then the difference is if you are new or old company, new ones like Tesla have issues that Toyota does not have, but with established manufacturers you get issues like charging and economy, etc.

Overall though, I think Hyundai Kona was the best of both worlds even when it comes to reliability, and quite often it is rated as one of the most reliable vehicles on the market in Europe.

It is just not desirable vehicle.

 

[Motor]

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Overall though, I think Hyundai Kona was the best of both worlds even when it comes to reliability, and quite often it is rated as one of the most reliable vehicles on the market in Europe.

It is just not desirable vehicle.

With the Ioniq 5 on the market now, the Kona EV takes a backseat

 

[spwolf]

With the Ioniq 5 on the market now, the Kona EV takes a backseat

They will coexist, Kona had been getting cheaper now, it is one of the cheapest bevs in Europe and sells really good.

 

[Levi]

They will coexist, Kona had been getting cheaper now, it is one of the cheapest bevs in Europe and sells really good.

I would consider it if it was a hatchback, not a pseudo-CUV.

 

[spwolf]

I would consider it if it was a hatchback, not a pseudo-CUV.

most people like pseudo CUV, hence hatcback sales going to crappers, even in Europe. With EV, it gives you more space for same money basically.

This is why small EVs make little sense right now, due to pricing being very similar to larger ones.

 

[NXracer]

@spwolf I know we mentioned this early on this thread about the frunk, or lack thereof.

Subie explanation:

A frunk increases the hood length, says the automaker, which can affect crash safety ratings. Subaru is expecting top marks when NHTSA and IIHS tests are conducted. Additionally, with a frunk, items stored there can create another layer of liability, particularly in crashes involving pedestrians.

Also missing is a glovebox. That’s not to say the Solterra is without storage. There’s actually plenty of that. There’s a center console storage bin and where a transmission assembly would be are two levels of storage trays and also a nook that fits most smartphones. But what about insurance and registration papers?no frunk and no glovebox apparently mean a safer Solterra since you now have a front passenger knee bag to protect you in a crash rather than an owner’s manual. Just don’t get pulled over.

I dont quite get this FWIW, other vehicles with a Frunk dont seem to suffer poorer outcomes with IIHS/NHTSA.

 

[Levi]

And the frunk is mostly useful to store cables and probably a tire repair kit.

 

[qtb007]

@spwolf I know we mentioned this early on this thread about the frunk, or lack thereof.

Subie explanation:

I dont quite get this FWIW, other vehicles with a Frunk dont seem to suffer poorer outcomes with IIHS/NHTSA.

I don't think it is the testing outcomes directly they are worried about. For pedestrian crash testing, there has to be an air gap between the hood and anything rigid (metal parts of the engine, normally) so that the hood can collapse and dissipate energy. How is that controlled by the manufacturer if the user gets to choose what goes under hood? Do other carmakers say that you can't put, for example, an anvil in the frunk? Do they build the air gap into the hood design? Do they slap stickers all over the inside saying that you can only fill to a certain height and only certain items are allowed up there? I honestly don't know how that is managed but I wager that manufacturers like Tesla don't even consider it. I can see very risk adverse automakers determining that it doesn't make sense to open that can of worms.

IMO, it's probably a serviceability thing. If they can put all the parts that would need repair (heat pumps, inverters, etc) all under hood for easy access, warranty repair bills go down and they probably have fewer durability issues with components because they aren't all crammed in every nook and cranny. It keeps manufacturing cost down, too, because they don't have to dress that entire area out as a touchpoint. Something like an F150 Lightning? Yea, that's big enough and probably useful enough for that type of buyer that it makes a big difference to the customer. My dad is a lifelong truck owner and he always has tools, winter gear, etc stuffed in the truck cab because most of the cargo area is unprotected from the elements. I could see a frunk being enticing to that type of buyer. In a compact crossover with relatively limited range, you probably don't need every cubic inch of cargo space... especially if it already exceeds what the comparable ICE version offers. If I decided to jump from a Rav4 to a Highlander, it would be due to the people space, not the cargo space.

 

[spwolf]

And the frunk is mostly useful to store cables and probably a tire repair kit.

yes... it is exactly used for bunch of cables you need to have - i have 2 sets, one of them really long, plus you can put anything about maintainance there (washer fluid, tire kit, etc).

And it is extremely useful for that, because you often charge your car, and the way they designed the back cover especially (it is very long back cover for under trunk), you would either keep the cables outside in trunk (crazy stupid) or you would have to take out luggage to open up that under trunk area. Plus that area seems very small if I remember correctly.

If you have EV, you will charge it 5-15 times per month, depending on where and how you charge, so location of charging cables is extremely important.

For instance, I could care less where my tire kit is, I never had to use it in my whole life as a drive (which is now 25 years).

Again, problem with this - you realize this only after you drive EVs constantly, so you understand how important it is. That is where my Level 2 charging cable is but also where my 20m extension cord is. I dont think in BZ4X my extension cord would fit under that shallow under trunk, so i would have to keep it....... in the actual trunk? Idiotic. I think Mercedes has the same problem with no frunk, but at least they might have deeper under trunk area. For instance in Audi under trunk cover opens in 2 pieces, for the purpose of being able to open it with trunk loaded with some of luggage. Not perfect but better:

 

[spwolf]

@spwolf I know we mentioned this early on this thread about the frunk, or lack thereof.

Subie explanation:

I dont quite get this FWIW, other vehicles with a Frunk dont seem to suffer poorer outcomes with IIHS/NHTSA.

probably didnt combine/miniaturized all the components yet to make this happen. Keep in mind most EVs dont have a glove box, since they put some component there, that usually goes in engine compartment. Tesla glove boxes and very shallow, so it is useful for just some insurance paperwork or something you want to keep out of eyes and not access a lot.

 

[NXracer]

I don't think it is the testing outcomes directly they are worried about. For pedestrian crash testing, there has to be an air gap between the hood and anything rigid (metal parts of the engine, normally) so that the hood can collapse and dissipate energy. How is that controlled by the manufacturer if the user gets to choose what goes under hood? Do other carmakers say that you can't put, for example, an anvil in the frunk? Do they build the air gap into the hood design? Do they slap stickers all over the inside saying that you can only fill to a certain height and only certain items are allowed up there? I honestly don't know how that is managed but I wager that manufacturers like Tesla don't even consider it. I can see very risk adverse automakers determining that it doesn't make sense to open that can of worms.

IMO, it's probably a serviceability thing. If they can put all the parts that would need repair (heat pumps, inverters, etc) all under hood for easy access, warranty repair bills go down and they probably have fewer durability issues with components because they aren't all crammed in every nook and cranny. It keeps manufacturing cost down, too, because they don't have to dress that entire area out as a touchpoint. Something like an F150 Lightning? Yea, that's big enough and probably useful enough for that type of buyer that it makes a big difference to the customer. My dad is a lifelong truck owner and he always has tools, winter gear, etc stuffed in the truck cab because most of the cargo area is unprotected from the elements. I could see a frunk being enticing to that type of buyer. In a compact crossover with relatively limited range, you probably don't need every cubic inch of cargo space... especially if it already exceeds what the comparable ICE version offers. If I decided to jump from a Rav4 to a Highlander, it would be due to the people space, not the cargo space.

Fair points, I guess we wait in regards to long term reliability. The outspoken costing engineers seem to be foaming at the mouth at how tesla design, space utilization, and simple design allows for more reliability.

 

[spwolf]

so what most reviewers dont talk about, since they dont really drive EVs, is what happens when you dont have frunk.
And also what stupid reviewers talk about with frunk is how many laptop bags you can put there (why would you? It is harder to access and not as protected, makes no sense to put luggage there).

 

[Will1991]

After the UX300e I was concerned about TMC's efficiency on BEV drivetrains, but this one is shaping up to be quite efficient!

WLTP efficiency it 14,3kWh/100km (FWD-516km) and 15,8kWh/100km (AWD-470km)

For comparasion (WLTP):
UX300 -> 16,8~17,1kWh/100km
ID.4 -> 16,2~16,9kWh/100km
Ioniq 5 -> 16,8kWh/100km
EV6 -> 16,5kWh/100km

All-new, electric Toyota bZ4X ready for European sales launch

bZ4X, the first model in Toyota’s bZ (Beyond Zero) battery electric vehicle range, is ready for pan-European market launchSmart packaging with great cabin space, excellent on-road performance, and class-leading AWD-capabilitiesHomologated data shows driving range of up to 516 km for front-wheel...

newsroom.toyota.eu

 

[ssun30]

Unfortunately I don't think that matters since it doesn't have 500hp or a frunk /s

After the UX300e I was concerned about TMC's efficiency on BEV drivetrains, but this one is shaping up to be quite efficient!

The impressive part of C-HR EV/UX300e is its efficiency despite being an ICE conversion, so the high efficiency of E-TNGA should not be a surprise. And I don't think they achieved this with an 800V architecture which is what the industry is adopting in the near future.

 

[Will1991]

They will have so few to sell, that it should get a long waiting list in a matter of weeks.
VW is doing well with the MEB based BEV's (ID.4 for example) with similar specification/price.

It uses a 355V battery (Source: https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/t...05.1452936737.1648744720-318632144.1648744720 ), I don't think TMC will get into 800V before 2025 with SSB's.

 

[Motor]

 

[carguy420]

All-new, electric Toyota bZ4X ready for European sales launch

bZ4X, the first model in Toyota’s bZ (Beyond Zero) battery electric vehicle range, is ready for pan-European market launchSmart packaging with great cabin space, excellent on-road performance, and class-leading AWD-capabilitiesHomologated data shows driving range of up to 516 km for front-wheel...

newsroom.toyota.eu

FWD: 516 km of range
AWD: 470 km of range
WLTP figures.