Toyota BZ4X

Levi

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it looks really good, but who cares with that performance though
the same type of buyers/leasers that care about a3 tdi s-line and 318d m-sport.

can't blame toyota for being late to printing money like the Germans do. it is the buyers' fault in this case.
 

spwolf

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the same type of buyers/leasers that care about a3 tdi s-line and 318d m-sport.

can't blame toyota for being late to printing money like the Germans do. it is the buyers' fault in this case.

those buyers in EV land will move to <6s 0-100kmh versions of BEVs, not dress up slow vehicle, for the same price.
 

ssun30

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the same type of buyers/leasers that care about a3 tdi s-line and 318d m-sport.

can't blame toyota for being late to printing money like the Germans do. it is the buyers' fault in this case.
His argument this entire time is "201hp sucks BZ4X will be a flop" or "any BEV that doesn't accelerate as fast as TM3 SR will fail".

Will that happen? We don't know.
 

NXracer

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those buyers in EV land will move to <6s 0-100kmh versions of BEVs, not dress up slow vehicle, for the same price.
Are their any <6s EVs in the same price range and size in the BZ4x segment? This will sell to the same folks who need a TRD avalon, F sport UX.
 

Will1991

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@spwolf , even Tesla now needs more than 6 sec on the entry level TM3.

Speed is fun and Tesla’s acceleration helped them to sell lots of cars. But on mainstream market, speed and acceleration isn’t a top priority.
Just look at the RX, it’s considerably slower than any Tesla (or almost any BEV) and it keeps selling pretty well.
 

spwolf

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His argument this entire time is "201hp sucks BZ4X will be a flop" or "any BEV that doesn't accelerate as fast as TM3 SR will fail".

Will that happen? We don't know.

Not really. My argument is that you can't build sport version of BEV and sell it for $50k if it goes 0-100kmh in 7.5s.

You can certainly build and sell cheaper BEV that has 200hp.

Entire time, i am writing that it would be amazing if people who drive BEVs would have built bz4x. Nothing to do with speed.

Let any bev owner read about it and they would tell you the same thing.

For the same price much lesser manufacturers like Ford and Hyundai/Kia are being way more ambitious.

Still does not mean i would not buy it or other Toyota bev for my wife though, but it's it where it has to be in 2022 to compete? Not really.

There is hope, they are rushing to add faster AC charging six months after start of production, because 6.6kw charging is stupid and insanely limiting to the first owners who will likely not understand why is it so slow to charge at shopping mall.

A lot of stuff that don't make sense seem to be made by market research people who researched that people stay at home for 14hrs per day and drive on average 85 miles per day hence no faster charging is needed, or something stupid like that.

Of course, it is all better than UX300e that you can't charge twice in a row on highway or in icy conditions due to poor pack cooling/heating system. Sucks to be one of those 3500 buyers in Europe last year.
 

Will1991

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The BZ4X is built to go against cars like the ID.4, which is selling pretty well with similar specifications.

I don’t want to sound like a fanboy, but TMC already announced 11kW AC charging by the end of 2022, the same as Tesla (the reference on BEV’s). I don’t recall any current BEV at the same price point with a faster AC charger.

The UX300e I do agree with you, I don’t know how Lexus is selling so much of them, but it doesn’t have any “rapidgate” problem with it.
I don’t find it technically on par with the competition, but I don’t know any problem with sustained DC charging like some LEAF’s.
 

spwolf

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@spwolf , even Tesla now needs more than 6 sec on the entry level TM3.

Speed is fun and Tesla’s acceleration helped them to sell lots of cars. But on mainstream market, speed and acceleration isn’t a top priority.
Just look at the RX, it’s considerably slower than any Tesla (or almost any BEV) and it keeps selling pretty well.

we are talking about BZ4X GR Sport model, right? This is why we are talking about speed.

Are you saying that people shelling out extra $5k for GR Sport version of bz4x do not care about speed or? Because at $/€ 50k that GR Sport will be priced at (and I am sure it will be coming to Europe, maybe next year?) you have significantly faster competition. We have GR Sport versions of almost every Toyota in Europe, and I am sure we will get same with bz4x.

Toyota does not exist in the vacuum. BZ4X will be compared to other ev's. BZ4X GR Sport will be compared to other sporty versions of BEVs.

Rav4 Hybrid and Rav4 PHEV sell the best because they are very competitive against VW, GM, Ford, Hyundai/KIA, PSA/Stellantis. Toyota does have loyal buyers but as we can see by Rav4, when they do well, they sell more - when Rav4 suxs, it drops sales.

It is not that complicated.
 

Will1991

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I see it differently.

It’s like you said, TMC sells GR variants on CHR’s/Corolla’s without any performance improvement for a extra.

In a similar fashion, M-Pack, S-Line and AMG packs is pretty much the same thing… You can buy a 218i M Active Tourer from BMW.
You can even buy a A-Class “AMG” with the 1.5L dci Diesel engine….
 

Levi

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That is what it is. BZ4X is "slow" with or without GR Sport line. They styling pack has nothing to do with performance and was never meant for that. Tesla might be good on some thing, but they are not at other things. It all depends on buyers preferences. Yes many buyers prefer Tesla, but not all. And Hyundai/Kia/Genesis are what they are. It is not about being first anymore, it is about existing.
 

ssun30

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we are talking about BZ4X GR Sport model, right? This is why we are talking about speed.
Toyota explicitly said GR Sport is an appearance package not a speed package. The only GR Sport with any mechanical modifications is J300 Land Cruiser but it's not a 'fast' version of J300. And every slow Toyota car has received the GR Sport treatment in Japan. End of argument.

You can keep arguing BZ4X is a terrible EV and sales will flop and I respect your opinion on that, because only time will tell. I'm also of the opinion that they can't expect sales to be successful if it's overpriced like C-HR EV/UX300e. But you have clearly lost the GR Sport discussion.
 

NXracer

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@spwolf , even Tesla now needs more than 6 sec on the entry level TM3.

Speed is fun and Tesla’s acceleration helped them to sell lots of cars. But on mainstream market, speed and acceleration isn’t a top priority.
Just look at the RX, it’s considerably slower than any Tesla (or almost any BEV) and it keeps selling pretty well.
Side note the RX is also cheaper then most of its competition to purchase.
 

spwolf

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I see it differently.

It’s like you said, TMC sells GR variants on CHR’s/Corolla’s without any performance improvement for a extra.

In a similar fashion, M-Pack, S-Line and AMG packs is pretty much the same thing… You can buy a 218i M Active Tourer from BMW.
You can even buy a A-Class “AMG” with the 1.5L dci Diesel engine….

We are not talking about gas cars anymore... for same upgrade price, you get Hyundai/KIA/Ford/Nissan with more performance, not just appearance package.

BEV rules are different, competition is different.
 

spwolf

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Toyota explicitly said GR Sport is an appearance package not a speed package. The only GR Sport with any mechanical modifications is J300 Land Cruiser but it's not a 'fast' version of J300. And every slow Toyota car has received the GR Sport treatment in Japan. End of argument.

You can keep arguing BZ4X is a terrible EV and sales will flop and I respect your opinion on that, because only time will tell. I'm also of the opinion that they can't expect sales to be successful if it's overpriced like C-HR EV/UX300e. But you have clearly lost the GR Sport discussion.

I am not saying it will flop at all. I am saying competition is different.

Pricing for BZ4X has been announced in UK already. We know cheapest will cost 42k GBP and most expensive will cost $52k. I assume GR Sport will cost 52k with that equipment pack.

Ok, so same as Rav4 packs right? Certainly inline with Hyundai/KIA/Ford that dont give you more power either.

But with BEVs, here is good example - Ioniq 5 starts at 39k GBP - and BZ4X is pretty comparable I think. problem is you select all the equipment and add 305hp motors, you end up 50k GBP. Now you are not competitive anymore. Same with KIA, same with Ford.

All 3 competitors had same style packages with their hybrids/petrols before and all 3 now have options that for the same price give you more significantly more power.

Now you are not competitive anymore.

I think their problem is that they are trying to copy VW and have similar strategy Toyota/Lexus as VW/Audi do, but problem there is a. VW is not that successful while going all in (sold 400k IDs in 2021, plan was 500k in 2020), b. other competition has way better cars than ID4 - ID3/4 are probably worst BEVs out of all major manufacturers right now.