Toyota BZ4X

Sulu

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I think we are in agreement in what the BZ4x is, a vehicle that will not sell because of being a perfect EV, but rather a vehicle that is expected to sell on marketing/brand heritage. This has worked in the past, but 7 years left on the road to EV adoption. Hopefully their BEV plan is more expansive then they are letting on.
Yes, it will sell because it is a Toyota but I do not agree that mass market consumers are buying the brand. I do not believe that mass-market consumers are as brand-loyal as premium- and luxury-brand buyers. Mass-market consumers look for value -- the most and best bang for the dollar. If an automaker is able to offer what the consumer is looking for -- features, good fuel economy, reliability, durability, comfort, all for a good price (price that the average consumer is willing to pay) -- consumers will buy (but note that performance is NOT something that the average consumer is looking for). Toyota, Honda, Kia and Hyundai have learned how to do this in North America. Average consumers do not look at the Tesla; it is not yet a consumer appliance.

If Toyota cannot balance all of this for the bZ4x, it will not sell, but if Toyota can give consumers what they want for a price that they are willing to pay, it will sell. Toyota was able to sell the different-from-normal early Prius models because it offered the features at a price that consumers were willing to pay.

Side note:
Yaris, Aygo, Crown, sienna and highlander are mass market economy cars, unless that designation has changed?
Yaris and Aygo are economy cars (true basic transportation appliances) but you cannot argue that the Crown, Sienna and Highlander (in addition to the Camry) are economy cars, not when you can load them with features that rival premium and luxury brands, at prices that almost equal luxury brand prices.
 

ssun30

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They need to realize they can't make a profit on every product they sell. Their average margins are already 10x industry average in China. In such a competitive market for EVs they couldn't expect these prices to give them good results. 1100/mo combined for both RAV4 PHVs are just pathetic. They spent a lot of money on the production lines so these are not some niche compliance vehicles. They need to subsidize dealers to push these models like they did for Prius in its early days.

Corolla PHVs and C-HR EVs are already heavily discounted and still don't sell at all so they should just be taken off the market already...they are wasting money maintaining the E180 Corolla PHV line. The E210 Corolla PHV should be a very high priority program and priced at least 20k lower to be relevant. They are competing against other products with three times the power and twice the EV range.
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Will1991

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So much space for rear passangers!

2023-toyota-bz4x_100815388_l.jpg



toyota-bz4x-layout_100813249_l.jpg
 

spwolf

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There was usa preview where they could sit in cars, it is true that it will cost $37k for well appointed XLE, not bad.
 

qtb007

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Yea, $37k would be a decent price after tax credit. That is spitting distance from a Rav4 XLE. Is that price confirmed from Toyota's lips? Or estimated by youtubers?
 

Gecko

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250 miles of range is getting to be a hard sell at this point, but I hope this car is a beta for Toyota and they have much better things coming. It does look nice and I really like the simple interior design.
 

Levi

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250 miles of range is getting to be a hard sell at this point, but I hope this car is a beta for Toyota and they have much better things coming. It does look nice and I really like the simple interior design.
It is, but unfortunately there is no way around that. More miles, needs more battery. Compare the Tesla Y with same battery, it is not much better. We are too used to range of best Tesla which is always quoted as benchmark, and we assume that is normal. Unlike for ICE, there is not a lot of "magic" engineers can do for batteries. And cars not phones, where the CPU has as much if not importance as battery size.
 

qtb007

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It is, but unfortunately there is no way around that. More miles, needs more battery. Compare the Tesla Y with same battery, it is not much better. We are too used to range of best Tesla which is always quoted as benchmark, and we assume that is normal. Unlike for ICE, there is not a lot of "magic" engineers can do for batteries. And cars not phones, where the CPU has as much if not importance as battery size.
And if Edmunds is to be believed, Tesla lists the best case scenario for their ranges while everyone else errs on the conservative side. Look at the table below. Almost every Tesla delivers less than their EPA estimate while almost everyone one else delivers more (and sometimes way more).

VehicleEPA estimateEdmunds testedEPA estimateEdmunds testedAmbient temperature
2020 Hyundai Ioniq Electric170 miles202 miles
(+18.9%)
25 kWh/ 100 mi20.8 kWh/ 100 mi
(+16.8%)
70°
2020 MINI Cooper SE110 miles150 miles
(+36.5%)
31 kWh/ 100 mi21.8 kWh/ 100 mi
(+29.7%)
62°
2019 Hyundai Kona Electric258 miles315 miles
(+21.9%)
28 kWh/ 100 mi22.3 kWh/ 100 mi
(+20.4%)
61°
2020 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus250 miles232 miles*
(-7.2%)
24 kWh/ 100 mi23.0 kWh/ 100 mi
(+4.2%)
67°
2020 Kia Niro EV239 miles285 miles
(+19.2%)
30 kWh/ 100 mi25.3 kWh/ 100 mi
(+15.7%)
67°
2022 Chevrolet Bolt259 miles278 miles
(+7.3%)
28 kWh/ 100 mi25.7 kWh/ 100 mi
(+8.2%)
71°
2020 Chevrolet Bolt259 miles277 miles
(+6.9%)
29 kWh/ 100 mi25.7 kWh/ 100 mi
(+11.4%)
60°
2021 Tesla Model 3 Long Range353 miles345 miles*
(-2.3%)
25 kWh/ 100 mi25.9 kWh/ 100 mi
(-3.6%)
61°
2021 Tesla Model Y Long Range326 miles317 miles*
(-2.8%)
27 kWh/ 100 mi26.2 kWh/ 100 mi
(+3.0%)
62°
2020 Nissan Leaf Plus SL215 miles237 miles
(+10.2%)
32 kWh/ 100 mi27.1 kWh/ 100 mi
(+15.3%)
67°
2021 Volkswagen ID.4 First Edition250 miles287 miles*
(+14.8%)
35 kWh/ 100 mi28.8 kWh/ 100 mi
(+17.7%)
63°
2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E California Route 1305 miles344 miles
(+12.8%)
33 kWh/ 100 mi28.9 kWh/ 100 mi
(+12.4%)
58°
2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E Std. Range230 miles264 miles
(+14.8%)
34 kWh/ 100 mi29.2 kWh/ 100 mi
(+14.1%)
62°
2021 Volkswagen ID.4 Pro260 miles288 miles*
(+10.8%)
34 kWh/ 100 mi29.3 kWh/ 100 mi
(+13.9%)
65°
2021 Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+350 miles422 miles*
(+20.6%)
35 kWh/ 100 mi29.5 kWh/ 100 mi
(+15.7%)
67°
2020 Tesla Model Y Performance291 miles263 miles*
(-9.6%)
30 kWh/ 100 mi29.6 kWh/ 100 mi
(+1.3%)
65°
2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance310 miles256 miles*
(-17.4%)
29 kWh/ 100 mi30.1 kWh/ 100 mi
(-3.8%)
61°
2021 Tesla Model S Plaid348 miles345 miles*
(-0.9%%)
33 kWh/ 100 mi32.1 kWh/ 100 mi
(+2.7%)
73°
2020 Porsche Taycan 4S203 miles323 miles*
(+59.3%)
49 kWh/ 100 mi32.3 kWh/ 100 mi
(+34.1%)
73°
2020 Tesla Model S Performance326 miles318 miles*
(-2.5%)
35 kWh/ 100 mi32.6 kWh/ 100 mi
(+6.9%)
60°
2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E AWD Ext Range270 miles304 miles
(+12.6%)
37 kWh/ 100 mi33.1 kWh/ 100 mi
(+10.5%)
62°
2020 Tesla Model X Long Range328 miles294 miles*
(-10.4%)
35 kWh/ 100 mi35.0 kWh/ 100 mi
(0.0%)
60°
2021 Polestar 2 Performance233 miles228 miles*
(-2.1%)
37 kWh/ 100 mi35.2 kWh/ 100 mi
(+4.9%)
67°
2021 Volvo XC40 Recharge208 miles240 miles*
(+15.4%)
43 kWh/ 100 mi35.4 kWh/ 100 miles
(+17.7%)
70°
2022 Audi RS e-tron GT232 miles285 miles
(+22.8%)
42 kWh/ 100 mi36.4 kWh/ 100 mi
(+13.3%)
77°
2022 Audi e-tron GT238 miles273 miles*
(+14.7%)
41 kWh/ 100 mi37.2 kWh/ 100 mi
(+9.3%)
70°
2021 Audi e-tron Sportback218 miles238 miles*
(+9.2%)
44 kWh/ 100 mi38.2 kWh/ 100 mi
(+13.2%)
71°
2022 Rivian R1T Launch Edition314 miles317 miles*
(+1.0%)
48 kWh/ 100 mi46.9 kWh/ 100 mi
(+2.3%)
53°

The Polestar 2 is the only non Telsa that doesn't beat its range estimate. None of the Teslas meet their EPA estimated range. I wish the table would let you sort by percent difference because then it would be very clear that traditional manufacturer's have different tolerances for just throwing numbers out there.

 

NXracer

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Yes, it will sell because it is a Toyota but I do not agree that mass market consumers are buying the brand. I do not believe that mass-market consumers are as brand-loyal as premium- and luxury-brand buyers. Mass-market consumers look for value -- the most and best bang for the dollar. If an automaker is able to offer what the consumer is looking for -- features, good fuel economy, reliability, durability, comfort, all for a good price (price that the average consumer is willing to pay) -- consumers will buy (but note that performance is NOT something that the average consumer is looking for). Toyota, Honda, Kia and Hyundai have learned how to do this in North America. Average consumers do not look at the Tesla; it is not yet a consumer appliance.

If Toyota cannot balance all of this for the bZ4x, it will not sell, but if Toyota can give consumers what they want for a price that they are willing to pay, it will sell. Toyota was able to sell the different-from-normal early Prius models because it offered the features at a price that consumers were willing to pay.


Yaris and Aygo are economy cars (true basic transportation appliances) but you cannot argue that the Crown, Sienna and Highlander (in addition to the Camry) are economy cars, not when you can load them with features that rival premium and luxury brands, at prices that almost equal luxury brand prices.
Almost every vehicle toyota makes on TGNA is middle of the pack, sometimes worst in class and yet every single vehicle outsells every their competitors. While I'm not disagreeing on price being a point of contention when deciding on what vehicle to purchase, alot of buyers of Toyota products have bought their Toyota simply because someone in their friends or family has mentioned that Toyota is a reliable brand.

The BZ4X is also not positioned to outshine the current loudest market competitors, Id4 (260 mile range) Mach E (235 mile range). However from the prime craze, I forecast the waiting lists and ADMs on the BZ4X will be a windfall for Toyota and their dealerships.

Side note on the Yaris-highlander. Yes every generation of highlander had top spec models that rivaled the luxury and premium counterparts but that doesnt take away from the fact that most buyers of highlanders will not be buying platinums. XLEs and below.
 

ssun30

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All the individual components are compact enough to be integrated low into the chassis, yet they still stack them up high in the engine bay. I've seen many people commenting on the lack of frunk as a sign of sloppy engineering. I would like to know Toyota's reasoning behind that.

We also saw this in Mirai where improvements in FC technology did not result in better packaging. Actually it's a theme among recent TMC products where improvements in individual components don't translate well to overall desirability.
 

NXracer

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All the individual components are compact enough to be integrated low into the chassis, yet they still stack them up high in the engine bay. I've seen many people commenting on the lack of frunk as a sign of sloppy engineering. I would like to know Toyota's reasoning behind that.

We also saw this in Mirai where improvements in FC technology did not result in better packaging. Actually it's a theme among recent TMC products where improvements in individual components don't translate well to overall desirability.
I see we have a Sandy Munro Fan. One of his most common complaints is about the engine bay stacking and front frunk
 

ssun30

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I see we have a Sandy Munro Fan. One of his most common complaints is about the engine bay stacking and front frunk
The ID.4 lacks a frunk because it has very short hood and an extremely tight turning radius (4.85m). BZ4X has neither, yet still has a very full 'engine' bay.
 

Levi

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All the individual components are compact enough to be integrated low into the chassis, yet they still stack them up high in the engine bay. I've seen many people commenting on the lack of frunk as a sign of sloppy engineering. I would like to know Toyota's reasoning behind that.

We also saw this in Mirai where improvements in FC technology did not result in better packaging. Actually it's a theme among recent TMC products where improvements in individual components don't translate well to overall desirability.
We won't know until someone tells us the truth. It could be for production reasons, adaptability, repairability, development facility, all related to costs, or no reason at all.
 

LS500-18

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I've seen many people commenting on the lack of frunk as a sign of sloppy engineering. I would like to know Toyota's reasoning behind that.
Not everyone cares about a frunk. I drove two Teslas over 6 years and I only used the frunk a handful of times per year. Usually the front is covered it bugs, ice, salt, dirt, slush, sand, etc. and you have to open and close it and get dirty. It's just easier to use the powered hatch.

Frunks are not that big of a deal to many people, all gas car buyers now don't have one and you don't see Sandy Munro bitching about that.
 

NXracer

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Not everyone cares about a frunk. I drove two Teslas over 6 years and I only used the frunk a handful of times per year. Usually the front is covered it bugs, ice, salt, dirt, slush, sand, etc. and you have to open and close it and get dirty. It's just easier to use the powered hatch.

Frunks are not that big of a deal to many people, all gas car buyers now don't have one and you don't see Sandy Munro bitching about that.
Someone please think of the chicken wings!
The Mustang Mach-E Can Turn Into a Giant Shrimp Cocktail
 
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Sulu

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This talk about frunks brings back memories of this, the late-1960s, early-1970s VW Squareback station wagon, which our family owned at the time. This one, in this beige colour, looks like ours; it shows just how shallow the frunk was.

vw-squareback-wagon103c.jpg

Luggage space was so small that my father bought a roof rack for a family road trip vacation one summer. This red one also shows the gas-fired heater that took up space along one side of the frunk, which, of course, took up precious space but was an absolute necessity in Canadian winters.

vw-squareback-wagon101c.jpg
 

ssun30

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Not everyone cares about a frunk. I drove two Teslas over 6 years and I only used the frunk a handful of times per year. Usually the front is covered it bugs, ice, salt, dirt, slush, sand, etc. and you have to open and close it and get dirty. It's just easier to use the powered hatch.

Frunks are not that big of a deal to many people, all gas car buyers now don't have one and you don't see Sandy Munro bitching about that.
My point was:
Frunk or
Short overhang and tight turning radius

BZ4X is neither.
 

Will1991

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Maybe they’re using the same front crash structure for bigger and heavier cars (perhaps RZ450e)?
TMC does the same thing with the TNGA platform, originating potential fiscal savings but makes the package worse (I’m talking specially about you, UX)
 

carguy420

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I see the BZ4X as the RAV4 of the EV world, no need for B.S. and gimmicks, and for those who are complaining that it's too slow and lack range look at the new Mirai, Toyota underrated its acceleration times amd range, who knows they might doing the same thing with the BZ4X, don't want to over-promise and under-deliver, this their 1st properly developed EV afterall, not some slapped together frankenstein to make certain groups of people happy.