The Official "I'm Struggling with Lexus" Thread

spwolf

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ah that sucks, I feel like TRD sounds much cooler than Gazoo Racing

GR, GR Sport sounds good, or I am used to it already.

Europe had sports accessories by TMG, and Sport factory models, but GR Sport and GR models look a lot cooler.
 

James

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@Gecko completely agree. It’s embarrassing honestly the amount of HP we get. I agree I don’t need 600 or more but how the hell is there nothing in the mid range of 350-450 on anything but an LS that should have an option for more. It’s embarrassing and when people come back to buy a new one and it’s the same damn engine from 10 plus years is just a joke. Ha I remembering saying how sad your posts made me feel Gecko I feel like I’ve joined the dark side lol or maybe it’s the good side now...
 

Gecko

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Also TRD in the US is mostly interpreted as "off-road", not "performance". That's the only context the general public saw that name in for 20+ years.

TRD's association with offroad vehicles has only risen in the age of TRD Pro. In the 90s and early 2000s, TRD made tons of parts and some fully kitted out Camrys, Corollas, Celicas, MR2s, Supras, etc. They have a much longer history as a producer and tuner of Toyota's performance vehicles than with 4Runners, Tundras and Tacomas 🙂
 

Ian Schmidt

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All true, but almost none of that stuff had the loud TRD sticker-badging. And Taco/Tundra TRD is pretty much all people have seen for almost 20 years.
 

Gecko

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So today... 203HP ES 250 AWD. We knew it was coming, and now it's real. Is this a new low, or just more of the same? I am not sure.

RAV4 Limited AWD: $35k, has new torque vectoring AWD

Highlander Limited AWD: $46k, has new torque vectoring AWD and V6

ES 250 AWD: ~$42k, has non-torque vectoring AWD system from 2013 and the same engine as a Camry LE

WTF? I don't know if I am laughing, crying or both.

Toyota seems to be throwing the absolute minimum investment at their luxury brand just curious to see the outcome... like they didn't completely upend the automotive market and rewrite the rule book 30 years ago. The disregard and downfall of Lexus is just mind boggling to me, even as a business case.
 

ssun30

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^^They care so little to the point they are no longer making financially beneficial decisions. One thing TMC is known for is its economic efficiency, but that no longer applies to Lexus. It's almost like the company is doing self-sabotage.

Lexus tried to sell the 3IS 250, with AWD, for bargain price in USA. That didn't work out (guess why) so they had to introduce a detuned IS350 as the IS300 AWD. That actually proved to be the right decision as the IS300 AWD has a very high take rate in northern states, far outselling the 300 RWD and 350 models.

The ES250AWD is a downgrade to literally every AWD sedan model introduced in North America, including the 2IS 250 (because that one is a V6). No current owner will ever consider a downgrade. No new buyer will pay such a premium over an AWD Camry. The only people who could sensibly buy this vehicle are probably driving a 1989 ES250 or the 90s ES300. There's too much modification compared to the ChDM ES260, and it's not sharing components with the TMMK-produced ES350, so logistically it's a lot of hassle. There is no business case for this product yet they greenlit the project.
 
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Gecko

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^That is a great point, @ssun30. Despite Toyota's long legacy of cost and economic efficiency, it seems Lexus is into a territory where very little of the business case makes sense. Meanwhile for Toyota with TNGA, things have never looked better. There was a time where I thought Toyota needed to get their house in order with TNGA before turning the attention to Lexus, but it does not seem like the latter is likely to happen.

10 year lifecycle for LS, followed up by a car that has been too dramatic of a strategy shift for core buyers
ES is to replace GS, but has no AWD system at launch and later gets Camry hardware
3rd major refresh for IS over 7 years
RC has been a mess since day 1
NX, RX, GX and LX are all ancient
CT is ancient
UX has been successful in some global markets but not USA
F brand is dead
One BEV

I understand how cost sharing works, I know how you make a business case and I also know you have to spend money to make money. On all of those fronts, I can't begin to explain Lexus over the last decade. If the next gen NX and RX aren't absolutely best in class, 10/10 efforts in execution, Lexus is going to be in very rough shape. Like... Acura or Infiniti.
 

ssun30

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Cost sharing means nothing if the expected return is low. High ROI means nothing if the absolute return is low. Volume means nothing if the margin is low. Under-investment never makes money. I hope Lexus understands these business common sense.
 

James

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Gecko you know honestly it’s bigger than NX and RX in my opinion. I think if Lexus truly wants to remain a Luxury brand event without Fs they need to nail this LF1 perfectly. Now my argument would be there’s no way in hell they can do the LF1 perfectly cause there’s no TTV8 but if they get an almost look alike of Q8 or Porsche Cayenne Coupé they will be in business but if they eff this up really is an NX/RX enough? Not sure.
 

Rydo

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Well I have chimed in a little so far but now it's time for me to go full steam and give my thoughts on this.

I've always been curious of Lexus as a brand. As a 29 year old, I'm by no means the target for Lexus products, but I always found the LS and SC striking barges in my youth - coupled with the fact that they were so rare to see on UK roads that it was something of an occasion to spot one.

Then I started to notice that they were doing this weird grill thing, and at first I didn't like how they looked.

Then I saw the LF-LC concept in red, and my heart skipped a beat. I'm not usually one to remotely bother with concepts because they usually always end up only going so far as concept stage. Then they showed the blue LF-LC and it looked incredible too. Then there was talks of production, and then sure enough production was confirmed. I didn't really think about the car that much for the next few years.

Then all of a sudden, without being a huge Lexus fan, and not following their every move, BAM! The production LC had debuted and it was an absolute carbon copy of the concept! I was gobsmacked. The press conference was kick ass - they even put up the word boring and put a line through it, played the V8 sound of the car and had the doubting quotes pop up before the reveal - 'it'll never look as good' 'it'll be watered down' etc, before the production LC roared onto the video. From that very day onwards, I have made it my sole mission to buy an LC. I sold my 2007 Honda Legend, a lovely car, but expensive to run and own here in the UK, and since that day I have saved hundreds of pounds per month with the view to affording a used example in the next 2-3 years.

In the time afterwards, Lexus was on an absolute roll. The LF-FC appeared, and again it took my breath away. I have visions of a 2-car driveway one day with the gorgeous LC and surely to be produced LF-FC, or next LS. Then the LF-SA appeared, and I had thoughts that if they put that into production, then I may actually buy a brand new car! Tastes differ of course, but in Europe, small hatches like the SA are very popular.

And then something happened.

Lexus started to dry up. Rather than reveal a stunning new LS that was a carbon copy of the LF-FC, like I was certain Lexus would do after seeing the stunning concept to reality job that the LC had, we got 5LS. Don't get me a wrong, it's a pretty handsome car, and the interior is absolutely perfect, but it's not the LF-FC. Gone was the gorgeous blue tone of the concept, the traditional 3 box shape, the distinctive rear end. Instead, the rear was a facelift of the heavily facelift 4LS, the front looked a little awkward from angles and overall...it just wasn't as stunning as I'd hoped.

LF-SA drifted away into the archive, years later still nothing has been said of it and it looks like no plans exist to bring anything like it to market. I guess Lexus are content with the Audi A1 selling a scullion units per year in Europe.

And then there was the UX, a confused mess of a concept, with a production car that was heavily changed (thankfully) but again with questionable looks from some angles.

Then we have the LF-30, a car that Lexus needs NOW in Europe. The premium hatch segment is EXPLOSIVE in Europe, with A-Class, 1-Series and A3 becoming huge sales hits for their respective manufacturers. And the CT compared...well...it's positively embarrassing.

Lexus lured me in with the promise to not be boring, the promise to target more young people with bold designs. But Lexus has left me with now, is an LC that I ultimately still save for every month - but a lineup other than that of confused ageing models.

RX has the old interior design language. ES looks way too much like the LS. The LS should have looked like the LF-FC. The UX isn't bad, but isn't that attractive from most angles either. The CT is laughably old. The NX again looks dated and bland now.

Then we have the more recent disasters. GS is dead. IS is dead (despite being a car that is one of the few Lexus's I see regularly driving around). the LS facelift looks worse, and has a worse interior. The LF1 is taking forever to come to market. The LF-30 is nothing more than a clay-model with a gimmicky launch video, rather than a CT replacement that will be ready in 12-months.

So now I look towards the future. I wonder what the LF1 will bring in the end. It's looking more and more like the car that will either reinvigorate all of our interest in this brand, or the one that will do something absolutely abhorrent and cause most of us to put the final nail in the coffin.
 
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Also TRD in the US is mostly interpreted as "off-road", not "performance". That's the only context the general public saw that name in for 20+ years.
TRD's association with offroad vehicles has only risen in the age of TRD Pro. In the 90s and early 2000s, TRD made tons of parts and some fully kitted out Camrys, Corollas, Celicas, MR2s, Supras, etc. They have a much longer history as a producer and tuner of Toyota's performance vehicles than with 4Runners, Tundras and Tacomas 🙂
Toyota figured out that truck owners spend tons of money on theirs whereas it was harder to get good ROI for Camry and Corolla parts (crappy aftermarket). I know plenty of Corolla owners complain why there aren't more TRD parts, but the bunch is mostly cheap and aren't willing to spend more money like trucks owners, especially when parts are easily knocked off and can easily be bought and questionable quality. just more making parts here and there for the Camry, they finally gave the world a TRD badged model. TRD USA is doing fine with their focus mostly on truck parts and NASCAR for the most part.
 

super51fan

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It feels like so many Lexus and Toyota models are in a stopgap state right now. I wonder if there are big issues with the V35a and related powertrain/drivetrain causing it to be delayed in other higher volume models, thus causing model updates to be delayed entirely.

I don't want to get my hopes up but I don't think they would put all this money into their driving excitement ad campaigns and launching a new performance division for a few low volume models.
 

Levi

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So now I look towards the future. I wonder what the LF1 will bring in the end. It's looking more and more like the car that will either reinvigorate all of our interest in this brand, or the one that will do something absolutely abhorrent and cause most of us to put the final nail in the coffin.

Cancellation of LF1 (has it ever been confirmed?) will be that final nail.

As you, I want to get an LC 500 when I can. Nothing else of interest here in Europe, and little much elsewhere.
 

GoHuskers

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The BEST way to voice your frustrations at Toyota/Lexus is NOT buying these vehicles.

If I am a seller and you keep buying my stuffs regardless of quality/price then why the hell would I change that? When I don't like something I just don't buy it. Toyota/Lexus would care less about you, me, and everyone on this forum. They will respond to our critics/frustrations by saying "I see". Well, they might have heard us and seen us frustrated but didn't care to respond. Just don't buy it.
 

James

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The BEST way to voice your frustrations at Toyota/Lexus is NOT buying these vehicles.

If I am a seller and you keep buying my stuffs regardless of quality/price then why the hell would I change that? When I don't like something I just don't buy it. Toyota/Lexus would care less about you, me, and everyone on this forum. They will respond to our critics/frustrations by saying "I see". Well, they might have heard us and seen us frustrated but didn't care to respond. Just don't buy it.
For the first time in my life I would not buy a Lexus if I was in the market for a new car today. I have till next November till my lease is up. Lexus has till then to have a shot but unless there is a screaming deal on of their cars compared to competitors I will be out. Never thought I’d say that but it’s true.
Btw if I could yell at something at their HQ I would! Don’t think they’d take my call...
 

Rydo

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The BEST way to voice your frustrations at Toyota/Lexus is NOT buying these vehicles.

If I am a seller and you keep buying my stuffs regardless of quality/price then why the hell would I change that? When I don't like something I just don't buy it. Toyota/Lexus would care less about you, me, and everyone on this forum. They will respond to our critics/frustrations by saying "I see". Well, they might have heard us and seen us frustrated but didn't care to respond. Just don't buy it.

Awful LS sales are going at least some way to showing Lexus the error of their ways, but the fear now is that rather than come back fighting with an LF-FC looking LS with TTV8...Lexus will just cancel LS altogether. Lexus could very well end up as pathetic as Lincoln with their embarrassing all-SUV lineup. It seems unthinkable, but then so did killing the GS once upon a time.
 
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Lexus could very well end up as pathetic as Lincoln with their embarrassing all-SUV lineup.
Unfortunately, an all-SUV lineup is better business wise right now, and Lincoln dealers never had to beg the mothership for more higher profit SUVs that Lexus dealers are still waiting on.