The Official "I'm Struggling with Lexus" Thread

[James]

So I went shooting with my father in law and as I pulled up behind him he called me and said is that you in that Toyota? I was like no I don't own a Toyota. He's like are you sure that's not a Toyota? Honestly I shrugged him off and said yeah yeah but as much as I love my GS, I started thinking about pretty much this thread and was like hell normally I fight to the death with him about how great Lexus is and honestly I can't even do it anymore! I have nothing to say to truly defend Lexus and what their future beholds and how great they are. As this whole post has pretty much said it is just sad about where we are in August of 2020.

On a side note my first post in this thread (or really the post that started this thread!) is my most liked post I think of all time on this site. if you would have told me when we started this site that my most liked post of all time is pissed off at Lexus I would have put every dollar I owned down on saying there is no way that would have been me! But wow look at how things have changed for the worst over the years...

 

[Levi]

Sometimes I doubt weather the Lexus saga is reality or a bad dream. Still hoping to wake up with great news.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Instead of doing one F model, and producing boring cars like before, they revamped every platform, so now even Yaris is fun to drive. Or looking at Lexus perspective, even ES is now more fun to drive vs before.

Agreed. The LS handles way, way better than it did pre-TNGA, and I love it. I finally got to drive a 7ES last week while they were checking out the fuel pump recall on my LS and it's a welcome improvement in driving dynamics as well. I do agree though that even with the dynamics improvements on everything TMC makes, an LC F convertible would really be the cherry on top. I don't care if it's the TTV8 or the oft-mentioned V35A hybrid, just do it.

 

[Gecko]

It's just six words: too much talk, too few products.

I personally don't care about TTV8 or whatever F. But stop pretending you care about 'driving excitement' when you really don't. People always hate it when companies use cool marketing words without products to back them up.

Feels like that is more about TMC than Lexus - and that is not true at all... they invested a ton of money into their new platforms that Mazda calls their next benchmark.
So lets not pretend.

Instead of doing one F model, and producing boring cars like before, they revamped every platform, so now even Yaris is fun to drive. Or looking at Lexus perspective, even ES is now more fun to drive vs before.

What part is more about TMC than Lexus?

 

[spwolf]

What part is more about TMC than Lexus?

TMC has been talking a lot more about driving excitement than Lexus... but regardless - TNGA is coming to NX, RX, and version is coming to LX and GX. It is already in LC, LS, ES and UX.

All 4 are considerably more of drivers cars than before, even fun to drive... LS previously was not, nor ES. UX is a lot better drivers vehicle than CT.

So to me personally, that means a lot more than a single F model with 895 HP that 390 people buy per year.

But I realize that other people might have different opinion. I just think we should not overstate how good TNGA is in real life, and it kind of sucks for Audi that cheapo European Corolla can handle potholes much nicer than my 2015 A7 FL with active suspension and thick tires.

IMHO, they re-started at the basics, and are giving more to everyone, no matter what version they buy.

 

[Levi]

ES 300h in Europe for example does not need 800 PS like M5, but a +300 PS version would make it more interesting. Even Peugeot has a 300 PS 508 sedan/wagon.

PS: For Europe TMC needs more wagons. Avensis was sold more as wagon than sedan and very used by taxis.

 

[Gecko]

TMC has been talking a lot more about driving excitement than Lexus... but regardless - TNGA is coming to NX, RX, and version is coming to LX and GX. It is already in LC, LS, ES and UX.

All 4 are considerably more of drivers cars than before, even fun to drive... LS previously was not, nor ES. UX is a lot better drivers vehicle than CT.

So to me personally, that means a lot more than a single F model with 895 HP that 390 people buy per year.

But I realize that other people might have different opinion. I just think we should not overstate how good TNGA is in real life, and it kind of sucks for Audi that cheapo European Corolla can handle potholes much nicer than my 2015 A7 FL with active suspension and thick tires.

IMHO, they re-started at the basics, and are giving more to everyone, no matter what version they buy.

I agree with the foundation of your post being that TNGA is making everything so much better, but I think it's hard to say that Toyota has fallen more short of promises than Lexus. Toyota promised greater driving enjoyment, lower CoG, quicker speed to market, more options and overall better cars. I think they've checked all those boxes. It's not clear if the product announcements at the start of TNGA would also apply to Lexus, but I think most of us assumed they would.

Every single Toyota product outside of the BOF lineup is new and/or on TNGA. XSE trims, TRD trims, TRD Pro trims, you have Supra and 86, tons of TRD accessories for most models and expanding aftermarket support, most Toyotas now have adaptive suspension options like Lexus, RAV4 Prime 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, much better torque vectoring AWD system, Prius AWD, Camry AWD, Avalon AWD, the list goes on.

Lexus has... the LC 500. (and F which has fallen apart, no [new] V8s, no performance hybrids or performance plugin hybrids, and everything else is a generation behind Toyota). RC and LC are the only authentic Toyota "sports cars"/GT cars, and for that I am very thankful. LC always seems to be the Lexus brand's saving grace, IMO. GA-L in the LS and LC is a great foundation but way too heavy and it's hard to fully appreciate the chassis' advancements without more power. LS is nimble and handles like a smaller car, but neutered by poor throttle response and being overweight. LC is phenomenal, but in need of more power at this point. Everything else in the lineup is old or underwhelming compared to their Toyota equivalent models.

I would say the TNGA era Toyota products (Corolla, Camry, Avalon, RAV4, Highlander, Sienna, Yaris Cross, Venza, etc) have been extremely competitive, best-in-class/top-of-class efforts.

The TNGA era Lexus products (UX, ES, LS, LC) have been a mixed bag. UX and ES are predictable as platform engineering exercises, with the ES having measured improvement over the last generation. The LS has essentially been a failure, and the LC has been one of the best Lexus products ever.

 

[super51fan]

All 4 are considerably more of drivers cars than before, even fun to drive... LS previously was not, nor ES. UX is a lot better drivers vehicle than CT.

So to me personally, that means a lot more than a single F model with 895 HP that 390 people buy per year.

I feel like the bar is so low that what should be considered ‘continuous improvement’ is considered a positive, especially in their target markets (the UX gets a pass.)

I agree I don’t need a ton of power, but with how cheap power is today combined with today’s transmissions and tires, I shouldn’t have to buy a halo car for a sub 5 second 0-60. For reference, other companies have cars under 3 seconds.

They have the pieces to make it happen which is why it is so disappointing.

 

[mikeavelli]

Toyota Motor North America Announces Executive Changes - Toyota USA Newsroom

PLANO, Texas (August 17, 2020) – Toyota Motor North America (TMNA) announced executive changes to its automotive operations. Bill Fay, senior vice president of automotive operations, TMNA, is retiring after more than 38 years with the company, effective September 1, 2020. […]

pressroom.toyota.com

Well I got a jolt of energy today. I know Andrew and he is the new V.P/General Manager of Lexus. A real down to earth guy and a real car enthusiast. This was a great move by Lexus. Some good news IMO.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Toyota Motor North America Announces Executive Changes - Toyota USA Newsroom

PLANO, Texas (August 17, 2020) – Toyota Motor North America (TMNA) announced executive changes to its automotive operations. Bill Fay, senior vice president of automotive operations, TMNA, is retiring after more than 38 years with the company, effective September 1, 2020. […]

pressroom.toyota.com

Well I got a jolt of energy today. I know Andrew and he is the new V.P/General Manager of Lexus. A real down to earth guy and a real car enthusiast. This was a great move by Lexus. Some good news IMO.

Toyota, Lexus sales executives switch jobs

Toyota North America is shuffling two high-profile executive jobs by having its vice president of sales and dealership development at the Toyota division swap roles with his Lexus counterpart.

www.autonews.com

They did something like this two years ago.

 

[ssun30]

ES 300h in Europe for example does not need 800 PS like M5, but a +300 PS version would make it more interesting. Even Peugeot has a 300 PS 508 sedan/wagon.

Supposedly an unnamed product with E-axle should have started production in H1 and ready to launch any time in H2. Lexus even has two new HV/PHV on their roadmap. From what we have seen so far no TMC program is delayed due to coronavirus, only the launch events are re-scheduled but production and availability are still on time.

However, we are not even hearing any rumor about an E-Axle PHV from Japan (e.g. Mag-X), nor have we seen trademarks for any new PHV other than the NXh+ for next year. The Avalon/C-HR PHV are right around the corner, yet we have not heard anything about their Lexus counterparts ever. We have absolutely zero idea about what the two new hybrids are or what happened to E-Axle.

Either things are very delayed or Lexus has evolved to another level of secrecy. The 'new' IS was never seen publicly but at least we heard Japanese sources speculating on it. This time it's the opposite: we've already seen the production prototype and the media even drove it, but then there's no follow-up.

 

[internalaudit]

I've been reading the Toyota/Lexus profit margins are one of the biggest in the industry.

If Lexus keeps losing market share because of rationalizing its line up and leaving the lower-end mostly FWD models, will that mean total revenues are going to dip? I mean it's one thing to have the best margins but if the sales are dwindling, what's the point of keeping the best margins? I know it's making some good progress in the EU.

Heck, TSLA just made Mr. Musk the fourth richest person in the world and its sales and cash flow from operations are but a sliver of Toyota's and the margins on the TM3 aren't going to be Lexus-like margins.

I'm actually happy TSLA keeps hitting all-time highs (not just because I plan to short it in 2026 or onward) because it's pushing LICE to start considering a more novel and unproven approach to just conducting business as usual.

I'm quite frugal. I can probably only want to afford a brand new IS. Hopefully the margin is comparable to the run-away success we find in the UX.

 

[Levi]

Notes to above: good handling is not equal fun to drive if power is lacking.

 

[spwolf]

Supposedly an unnamed product with E-axle should have started production in H1 and ready to launch any time in H2. Lexus even has two new HV/PHV on their roadmap. From what we have seen so far no TMC program is delayed due to coronavirus, only the launch events are re-scheduled but production and availability are still on time.

However, we are not even hearing any rumor about an E-Axle PHV from Japan (e.g. Mag-X), nor have we seen trademarks for any new PHV other than the NXh+ for next year. The Avalon/C-HR PHV are right around the corner, yet we have not heard anything about their Lexus counterparts ever. We have absolutely zero idea about what the two new hybrids are or what happened to E-Axle.

Either things are very delayed or Lexus has evolved to another level of secrecy. The 'new' IS was never seen publicly but at least we heard Japanese sources speculating on it. This time it's the opposite: we've already seen the production prototype and the media even drove it, but then there's no follow-up.

I mean, e-axle was shown to journalists on Lexus ES.

How is that secret compared to Avalon/C-HR PHEV which we know single liners from some filings about.

You certainly wont hear a lot more from Lexus, until it is close to sales, and it is manufactured in Japan where we kind of dont get as good info as in US or China.

Lexus IS announcement was delayed in Japan for 5 months after JDM mags reported it happening - ie it was supposed to be revealed in February.

 

[James]

Notes to above: good handling is not equal fun to drive if power is lacking.

totally! I know a good amount of our products are better than they have been (ES for one) but they aren't that close to the competition honestly. I feel a difference from my GS to the new ES so if I was switching to a new 5 series I'm sure it's not even close! And yeah all of our cars at a little over 300 HP...eh doesn't really scream fun.

 

[ssun30]

I often feel tempted to mock the stereotypical Americans who want MOAR HORSEPOWER. But I want more horsepower. Maybe not 650, 800, or 1000. But double of 215 shouldn't be too much to ask. After all I can buy 586 with less than $40k (BYD Tang facelift announced last week), and with a safe battery too.

 

[Alshamsi]

Notes to above: good handling is not equal fun to drive if power is lacking.

Exactly!
Relaxed "occasionally jerks" unresponsive transmission and lack of power really plagues my ES FSPORT, it has a ton of potential, the handling is really amazing imo, but the transmission is really messing with all the fun...
And a turbo charged engine with at least 350hp engine wouldn't hurt...

If they canceled the GS they should've really upped the luxury in the ES by offering an ES 400 or 500 versions with a detuned LS engine...
One thing about the interior is annoying is that the rear windows aren't double glazed like the fronts, my front windows are much quieter than the rears and I can hear the difference which is annoying sometimes...

 

[Gecko]

I often feel tempted to mock the stereotypical Americans who want MOAR HORSEPOWER. But I want more horsepower. Maybe not 650, 800, or 1000. But double of 215 shouldn't be too much to ask. After all I can buy 586 with less than $40k (BYD Tang facelift announced last week), and with a safe battery too.

Very much agreed. These vehicles are getting heavier almost every year, and have not had much of a bump in horsepower to offset the weight gains. I know most buyers - especially Lexus buyers - don't even know what size engine or horsepower their cars have, but I also know a number of "plain jane" RX, ES and IS buyers who complain about a lack of power when merging or summoning the "get up and go." There is an expectation that paying $$$ for a car should solve some of those problems and it's an area where Lexus is far behind. It's hard to drive an X5 or GLE and then get into an RX and feel like you've got a similar level of power, same goes for basically any other compact sedan vs. the IS.

For me, Lexus needs something in the realm of 350-400hp with a dynamic AWD system for under $65k, otherwise it just makes sense to keep buying Toyotas or go elsewhere. 300hp was a lot in 1998 - that was 22 years ago and Lexus should consider a reality check. If the new RX comes in 2022 with the ~300hp GR V6 again, or only a similar powered turbo 4 cyl... yikes. Not good. RX especially needs an engine option in that 350-400hp bracket to keep pace, and really just catch up.

Also, I'd like to see more variety with hybrids. If different sized batteries can take the 4cyl hybrid system from 208hp to 245hp, then let's offer ES 300h, ES 350h and ES 400h or something and keep rolling.

Last but not least, we know about TT V6 + hybrid coming soon, but considering natural progression, there should also be a 2.4/2.5L turbo I4 + hybrid coming after that. Hard to speculate on power, but that should be somewhere around 300-350hp and provide the type of low and mid-range power that so many GR-powered Lexus vehicles are missing. However, I am sick of prophesizing about what Lexus should be doing - it is worthless and lost on a company culture that can't get out of it's own way.

 

[meth.ix]

A little bit off-topic but anyone know why Toyota made GR their performance brand when they could just use TRD? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[spwolf]

A little bit off-topic but anyone know why Toyota made GR their performance brand when they could just use TRD? Doesn't make sense to me.

TRD was very much limited to certain parts of the world, as an effort from regional distribution Toyota companies.

GR is worldwide effort from dedicated Toyota JDM team.