The Official "I'm Struggling with Lexus" Thread

James

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I didn't know where to put this statement so hell move it wherever Gecko or leave it here but I used to be so excited to come to this site to hear the latest Lexus news and see what new product was coming out and now honestly I think a little bit more of me dies every time I come onto the site. It's definitely not the people or the amount of time Krew has put into this site because it is truly an amazing site that I love being apart of but honestly Lexus has let us down so much since the start of this site it's sad. I still wear my LFA shirt like 1x a month and just remember those days of when I got that shirt and the future of Lexus and what was to come and to be excited about the possibilities to now here we are discussing Genesis being better than Lexus, no V8's at all in their entire lineup, the GS is dead, and whatever else you would want to put here. It's truly sad and God I hope we are all wrong and something exciting comes soon but as a Lexus fan this is the lowest I've ever been with them. I never wanted to see the Germans win as I think their cars are in the shops all the time and their customer experience is not Lexus, but they make really fun, exciting cars to drive, look at, and their reliability is getting to the point that Lexus can't say we are so many worlds ahead buy us for that anymore.

I doubt Lexus will ever be gone with the RX and ES (even NX now) selling what 15-20k a month as your bread and butter but they keep saying we want younger people to buy well **** Lexus younger people don't want an ES or RX. You say we want younger but get rid of V8s. How many younger people and older for that matter go to an auto show and drool over the M5, RS7, RSQ8, or any of those models because look at how cool that would be to own? Will most own it of course not but they have that dream? What's the dream of owing a Lexus anymore? A hybrid that gets 40 miles to the gallon? A soccer moms RX? A near retirement male ES? And not bashing those cars at all. They are great cars in their own right but that's not exciting. My father in law owns an SLS, RS7, and an S4. I walk into his garage and he more cars there than Lexus has in their entire lineup of just fun cars! There's an M, AMG, S or RS model for every model in the Germans and we can't even have 1 second generation F model? I'm just baffled, saddened, and disgusted with what Lexus is doing. I've typed more messages in the last few days than I had in months and I feel like I'm breaking up with a girlfriend right now with the constant negative messages but damn the excitement I've had for as long as I can remember is gone. Lexus truly you have failed us on some many levels.
 

Gecko

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Hi All,

Being a fan - whether it's of a sports team, a car brand, a music group or something else - always involves some ups and downs. I speak for myself and a few others when saying the last few years at Lexus have felt like more downs than ups, and that's been reflected in some of the sentiment of threads here - LC F cancellation, V8s being retired, GS cancellation, LS issues, etc.

With this in mind, this thread is the place to air your grievances and talk about how you feel. Be mad. Be pissed. Be confused. Or if you want to be hopeful and optimistic, there's room for that too. I know Lexus is personal for a lot of us, so as trite as it might sound, setting up a dedicated place to talk about how you're feeling about it all and why might help to keep some other threads more focused.

I'll go second after @James. Most of you know me and my feelings about Lexus are well documented here. I was a diehard Lexus fan from 1997 to ~2016 or so. Over the last few years, I realized I had a lot of myself wrapped up in Lexus and some of the things the brand was doing were actually making me pretty down. Does that sound dumb? Maybe? I loved the brand so hard for so long that to many of my friends and family, my name was synonymous with Lexus. Realizing the impact it was having on me, I ended up kind of divorcing myself from the brand because I obviously can't get worked up or bothered by what I can't control. So my POV since then has been trying to just take Lexus for who they are, which I now see as a second/third tier, Toyota+ brand of sorts, and creating a fair and open environment on the forum for others to chat. At this point, I don't have much emotion or any level of expectation about what Lexus does or who they are. I still enjoy the banter of the forum, but just don't care much about the brand anymore.

So, that's my .02! Therapy is now open -- and it's free. 🤣
 
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Levi

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Sad for Lexus. Sure TTV8 and all those fancy things would be nice, but the LC 500 is really all I want. With what the future of Lexus looks like, but also the overall car industry, as I am not really excited by the coming BEV world even if it is practical and usefull, I want the LC 500 even more and really hope to get one in the future if all goes well with me.

My issue with Lexus is more from a business perspective. I personally do not need more than LC 500, and do not want less.
 

super51fan

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For me this conversation goes beyond Lexus and encompasses Toyota as a whole. I said it in another thread, but the "they could do X and Y if they wanted to" narrative with Lexus (and Toyota) is getting rather old. This company has the resources to build anything they want but don't unless it is incredibly profitable. They don't even have to be the best, but I just want to see them try.

When I look through their products, everything is such a huge compromise that I feel like I would be settling if I were buying it. I eventually got so frustrated with that feeling I bought a BMW with an extended warranty so I could have my cake and eat it too.
 

Gecko

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For me this conversation goes beyond Lexus and encompasses Toyota as a whole. I said it in another thread, but the "they could do X and Y if they wanted to" narrative with Lexus (and Toyota) is getting rather old. This company has the resources to build anything they want but don't unless it is incredibly profitable. They don't even have to be the best, but I just want to see them try.

When I look through their products, everything is such a huge compromise that I feel like I would be settling if I were buying it. I eventually got so frustrated with that feeling I bought a BMW with an extended warranty so I could have my cake and eat it too.

What about Toyota makes you feel like that? I feel like their products right now are killer, which is part of what is making Lexus look so irrelevant.
 

super51fan

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What about Toyota makes you feel like that? I feel like their products right now are killer, which is part of what is making Lexus look so irrelevant.

I'd had a lot wrote out but I deleted it all because it is mostly irrelevant but I can do my to try to summarize:

-86: I give this car a pass because it is good for what it is, but I bought a E36 318is after test driving one if tells you how much I'd consider purchasing one. But it should have had a turbo, I don't care what Tada says about it throwing off 'the balance,' it is not like you're forcing people to buy the turbo version if you offered it.

-Corolla: Give us more than 168hp wtf.

-Yaris: Give us the real Yaris atleast.

-Supra: I don't know where to begin. Being a long time Supra owner and enthusiast, I am still so disappointed that a budget-Cayman is all that they could come up with. No matter how good of car it is, there are so many development decisions I can not agree with. It doesn't help the PR is full of lies to justify their decisions. It doesn't even look good in the sense of a cohesive design. How can you say it has to have an inline 6 but drop a 4 cylinder in there? They are the ones shouting "inline 6 heritage" while simultaneously going against the same heritage they are preserving. The car is great and have been following it for years on SupraMKV, but I think it could be much better while using current resources without increasing cost. I don't care about BMW parts bin or Zupra or blah blah blah, but the car doesn't strengthen the brand long term which makes it feel like a cheap cash grab.

-Gazoo Racing: It isn't Gazoo's fault but why even launch this global sub brand? There will be 3 GR cars as far as we know, GR Supra, GR86, and GR Yaris which consist of a mid tier BMW motor, a Subaru SUV motor, and a very good car that won't come to the US. How can Toyota say that 'sports cars are too expensive to develop' while launching a performance sub brand and giving the GR Yaris a bespoke motor and AWD system? Clearly, they are devoting plenty of resources to sports cars and makes them look like the same joke that TRD is.

The rest of the brand is fine, assuming the trucks and BOF SUVs ever get updated. My sister loves her highlander and my parents love their Rav4 and Avalon but not much of the brand exists beyond their purpose of being an appliance. There is nothing wrong with that but it isn't for me and clearly Lexus isn't trying.
 
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Jonas

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Agree with almost everything above

Have been a true Lexus enthusiast.

Started with four GS 450h – only improved over the years and I loved the last generation.

Spiced up with RC F carbon sport+ and GS F – amazing cars.

Ended up with LC 500 carbon sport+ – beauty and spectacular at least in high speeds and rpms.

Also had two NX 300h – good value for the money and practical around town etc.

So, to the point. The LC 500 is sadly, most due to family reasons, not an option anymore.

Wanted something with a bite (horsepower) and space. The only option at Lexus a refreshed RX 450h f-sport 2000.

Got so frustrated that I tested a Cayenne e-hybrid (460 hp). Even looking at a Jaguar SVR and also Alfa Romeo and Lamborghini SUV’s. And they were tempting and even better options in many ways!

Still, ordered the RX out of pure brand loyalty. Not fully happy as the customer service could have been much better (has deteriorated at least in Sweden) and as the deal could have been a bit sweeter. There is also a delay in delivering the car. And if there is more delay, I think I will cancel the order, even if it may cost me financially.

My decision, or should I say verdict:

I give Lexus two years. If there is no Lexus LQ (limitless) or the RZ 450e is not intriguing, this is my last Lexus.

If Lexus cannot offer more horsepower and modern technique like a turbo chargeable hybrid like the Cayenne, the RX is just something in between for me and a divorce from the brand.
 

Gecko

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I'd had a lot wrote out but I deleted it all because it is mostly irrelevant but I can do my to try to summarize:

-86: I give this car a pass because it is good for what it is, but I bought a E36 318is after test driving one if tells you how much I'd consider purchasing one. But it should have had a turbo, I don't care what Tada says about it throwing off 'the balance,' it is not like you're forcing people to buy the turbo version if you offered it.

-Corolla: Give us more than 168hp wtf.

-Yaris: Give us the real Yaris atleast.

-Supra: I don't know where to begin. Being a long time Supra owner and enthusiast, I am still so disappointed that a budget-Cayman is all that they could come up with. No matter how good of car it is, there are so many development decisions I can not agree with. It doesn't help the PR is full of lies to justify their decisions. It doesn't even look good in the sense of a cohesive design. How can you say it has to have an inline 6 but drop a 4 cylinder in there? They are the ones shouting "inline 6 heritage" while simultaneously going against the same heritage they are preserving. The car is great and have been following it for years on SupraMKV, but I think it could be much better while using current resources without increasing cost. I don't care about BMW parts bin or Zupra or blah blah blah, but the car doesn't strengthen the brand long term which makes it feel like a cheap cash grab.

-Gazoo Racing: It isn't Gazoo's fault but why even launch this global sub brand? There will be 3 GR cars as far as we know, GR Supra, GR86, and GR Yaris which consist of a mid tier BMW motor, a Subaru SUV motor, and a very good car that won't come to the US. How can Toyota say that 'sports cars are too expensive to develop' while launching a performance sub brand and giving the GR Yaris a bespoke motor and AWD system? Clearly, they are devoting plenty of resources to sports cars and makes them look like the same joke that TRD is.

I see what you mean. We know Toyota has tepid commitment to sports cars so the reliance on Subaru and BMW to make them a reality is not something I love either... but we're expected to be happy with what we have. If Lexus was stronger, a small RWD chassis could support an 86, Supra, IS, RC and potentially even a small performance CUV. Because of how Toyota has handled Lexus, that case is probably impossible to make, thus the partnerships and paltry state of IS and RC.

GR Corolla is coming with more than 168hp... fingers crossed.

My .02 is that with internal priorities, TNGA rollouts, downfall of Lexus, COVID, recession worries, Gazoo got pushed to the very backburner, and has been there ever since. There's a lot of potential but they need to act like they know how to tap into it.

Elsewhere though, I feel like Toyota is very strong and then we have the rollout of new BOF products starting next year. And I think the Tundra will be the first to get the new turbo hybrid V6, which I think will be awesome. You know, it's not like Lexus has a flagship sedan that would have been a great fit for that or anything 🙃
 

super51fan

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I see what you mean. We know Toyota has tepid commitment to sports cars so the reliance on Subaru and BMW to make them a reality is not something I love either... but we're expected to be happy with what we have. If Lexus was stronger, a small RWD chassis could support an 86, Supra, IS, RC and potentially even a small performance CUV. Because of how Toyota has handled Lexus, that case is probably impossible to make, thus the partnerships and paltry state of IS and RC.

GR Corolla is coming with more than 168hp... fingers crossed.

My .02 is that with internal priorities, TNGA rollouts, downfall of Lexus, COVID, recession worries, Gazoo got pushed to the very backburner, and has been there ever since. There's a lot of potential but they need to act like they know how to tap into it.

Elsewhere though, I feel like Toyota is very strong and then we have the rollout of new BOF products starting next year. And I think the Tundra will be the first to get the new turbo hybrid V6, which I think will be awesome. You know, it's not like Lexus has a flagship sedan that would have been a great fit for that or anything 🙃

It isn't even the partnership that I find to be an issue, it is how a model has to live within another company's ecosystem,

I think the real reason the 86 didn't get a turbo was so it didn't steal sales from the STI. That makes sense for the BRZ within Subaru's ecosystem, but it means Toyota gets the short end of the stick for the 86. I feel like the Supra will be the same way going forward since it abides by BMW's update cycle. This is good in a way because the car will be updated more frequently, but it means Toyota can't offer something if it doesn't exist in other BMWs (such as a manual transmission on updated B58 models).

I just truly don't want this to be the case with every future Toyota sports car.
 

Ian Schmidt

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I think the real reason the 86 didn't get a turbo was so it didn't steal sales from the STI. That makes sense for the BRZ within Subaru's ecosystem, but it means Toyota gets the short end of the stick for the 86.

That's probably true, but at the same time Toyota has a lot of leverage with Subaru so if they really wanted a turbo they probably could've gotten the STI engine in an 86. I actually think a BRZ with the STI engine would've been a compelling product for Subaru as well, but sales likely wouldn't have justified it. That of course isn't the case with BMW.
 

Will1991

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If the 86 had a turbo, it would have as much or even more power than the 2.0 Supra...

Seriously, in such a small market for 2 door coupe, does it makes sense to offer two of them with so similar specs?

IMO the 86 is as good as it should be. A relatively cheap car to buy and to drive with a amazingly well balanced chassis to do autocross, track days and even comfortable/fuel efficient enough to be a day-to-day/long journeys car.

Personally, I struggle a bit to understand this "needs a turbo" thing... If it had one, it would be considerably more expensive... And it's even worse coming from the US market, if you just want big hp numbers to drag race you've so many better offers!

If I haven't met my fiancé and wanting to start a family I would have one as my only car. Given it's price point and how well it handles and all the sensations it gives, it's perfect.

As far as Lexus goes, as a enthusiast, I would say it's letting me down a bit... But maybe it's because I'm looking for a awfully specific thing... A BEV/PHEV small sports sedan priced equivalent to a TM3 MR/LR RWD... I'm a niche consumer, where most of us just wants a Tesla...

UX, I honestly don't see how people compare it to the CHR... It's in whole another level...

GS was killed due to low sales, can we really blame Lexus? When the last one came out it evolved onto the Spindle Grill, was a beautiful car and as far as my opinion goes, much better than the German rivals... But even then, it lacked proper sales volume to justify... We're in a SUV-era because "we" want, it's the majority of sales!

ES, yes, it's not RWD, but does it really need to be? The most powerful one has 300hp... It would remain as fast as it is... Worse, it would sell less due to higher prices... Making an even worse business plan for future sedans...

IS/LS/LC, I think Lexus just choose to "wait and see" honestly... Due to, once again, everyone looking for SUV's... And they seem to be right... The LC has the V8, has the good looks, has the build quality, has a fair price (due to what's offered) but they just seem hard to sell... We're a global Lexus Enthusiast community and besides @mikeavelli I don't remember much more LC owners around here...

NX/RX, it's a normal product lifecycle... They was just a bit unlucky to be the last ones to launch them in a new and changing market...

Where I would do different than Lexus:
  • Full F cars
    • It's about building heritage... It shouldn't be a financial decision... They could create a much bigger Lexus lifestyle movement than a boat, Instagram cooking clips and imaginative hoverboards...
  • V8's
    • They could be only for the more expensive full F cars, but they should be more available... Yes, they're big polluters and use a lot of fuel... So what? Who wants a V8 isn't looking for fuel economy! CAFE/emissions averages could be easily solved with a proper investment towards PHEV's... Or just a bigger price difference between them and the "normal" hybrids...
  • PHEV's
    • This one is for the entire Toyota group... They've the best hybrid technology and are behind almost everyone regarding performance PHEV's (Porsche, Audi, BMW, etc...) It's just a stupid decision IMO.
  • LX/GX/CT
    • Their age... It's just sad really... And a bit disturbing... But they keep selling in good numbers so I do struggle to get it... Maybe it's me that's wrong on this one...

But almost all of the points above, are for brand enthusiasts... For the general public not so much... And we can see this by Lexus sales as they're steady on the US and on the rise for China and Europe. And, as @ssun30 (I think) said around here, Lexus has yet to tap onto emerging markets, something the competition has already perform, sou it could be very well constrained by production capacity.
And finally, everyone has a "boss", even Akyo Toyota (Shareholders)...
 
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super51fan

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That's probably true, but at the same time Toyota has a lot of leverage with Subaru so if they really wanted a turbo they probably could've gotten the STI engine in an 86. I actually think a BRZ with the STI engine would've been a compelling product for Subaru as well, but sales likely wouldn't have justified it. That of course isn't the case with BMW.

Maybe so but they also had expensive trim packages for the BRZ that upgraded everything except the motor. They know there are a select few willing to pay a premium and they did offer higher end options, just not the options I personally would have wanted.

If the 86 had a turbo, it would have as much or even more power than the 2.0 Supra...

Seriously, in such a small market for 2 door coupe, does it makes sense to offer two of them with so similar specs?

I don't think that is an issue though, but by the same accord the 4 cylinder Supra also overlaps the 4 cylinder RC300 and very similar prices ($43k vs $42K.) Camaros and Corvettes have power overlaps, Z4, 2 series, 4 series, and 8 series all have hp overlaps and no one bats an eye.

Per Toyota, the 4 cylinder Supra shouldn't even exists since it has to have an inline 6 in their opinion but that is a conversation for another day
 

super51fan

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While we are over here begging for something remotely interesting, the upcoming M5 will have 750hp and 1000hp variants. That is leaps and bounds over what Lexus is doing.

If you want anything over 500hp from Toyota/Lexus you need to buy their supercar or a truck with dealer optioned supercharger at time when BMW has 7 trims of SUVs alone over 500hp

 

Levi

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gt86 could come with two engines and two prices, NA and FI. It is not like they don't do a Golf R, because it would be too expensive for a Golf GTI. For this reason there are two, FWD and AWD.
 

ssun30

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It's just six words: too much talk, too few products.

I personally don't care about TTV8 or whatever F. But stop pretending you care about 'driving excitement' when you really don't. People always hate it when companies use cool marketing words without products to back them up.
 

spwolf

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It's just six words: too much talk, too few products.

I personally don't care about TTV8 or whatever F. But stop pretending you care about 'driving excitement' when you really don't. People always hate it when companies use cool marketing words without products to back them up.

Feels like that is more about TMC than Lexus - and that is not true at all... they invested a ton of money into their new platforms that Mazda calls their next benchmark.
So lets not pretend.

Instead of doing one F model, and producing boring cars like before, they revamped every platform, so now even Yaris is fun to drive. Or looking at Lexus perspective, even ES is now more fun to drive vs before.
 

Levi

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Feels like that is more about TMC than Lexus - and that is not true at all... they invested a ton of money into their new platforms that Mazda calls their next benchmark.
So lets not pretend.

Instead of doing one F model, and producing boring cars like before, they revamped every platform, so now even Yaris is fun to drive. Or looking at Lexus perspective, even ES is now more fun to drive vs before.

They might now all be fun to drive, but what is lacking is that one F car. Yes, it is lacking.