The Future of the IS Thread

[internalaudit]

so, Lexus should do torque vectoring AWD in base IS, because:
a. You want it
b. Audi is trickling it down to $60k/$70k SUV BEV

I like your style.

No. Stop being a jerc and a frick. I had much respect for you until you started putting words in my mouth and have sheety sarcasm coming out of your mouth. If you can read my earlier posts properly, I said make torque vectoring an option on the smaller engine.

Because if Acura can offer its Hybrid MDX and RLX for $70k CAD, eventually electric torque vectoring can be had for $60-80k USD. If a $90k USD e-tron S can have it next year, why can't $80k vehicles have it eventually? These are consumer goods and features will trickle down to cheaper models anyway.

Then your A7 3.0T won't look so appealing to many driving enthusiasts anymore (it probably doesn't to begin with). I was never fond of the exterior styling anyway.

 

[spwolf]

No. Stop being a jerc and a frick. I had much respect for you until you started putting words in my mouth and have sheety sarcasm coming out of your mouth. If you can read my earlier posts properly, I said make torque vectoring an option on the smaller engine.

Because if Acura can offer its Hybrid MDX and RLX for $70k CAD, eventually electric torque vectoring can be had for $60-80k USD. If a $90k USD e-tron S can have it next year, why can't $80k vehicles have it eventually? These are consumer goods and features will trickle down to cheaper models anyway.

Then your A7 3.0T won't look so appealing to many driving enthusiasts anymore (it probably doesn't to begin with). I was never fond of the exterior styling anyway.

this is what i read:

They should just slap torque vectoring (the Lexus variant on the RCF and GSF not the subtle DTV the RAV4 has) on all the 4IS and watch sales soar. If the GS isn't selling that great, might as well flood the market with nice entry level performance sedans, since there really isn't much cannibalization.

also, i dont understand how is base 4IS a $80k vehicle?

And sure, I dont particularly like my A7 either, if you could not tell by my posts.

In any case, what I wanted to say, in a nice, funny way, was that you cant watch market through your own eyes only - it is great that you want torque vectoring but that does not mean every car should have it. It makes no sense for every 4IS to have AWD, just like it doesnt make sense for every 3 series to have AWD, and it never will.

 

[CRSKTN]

And sure, I dont particularly like my A7 either,

Details?

 

[internalaudit]

this is what i read:



also, i dont understand how is base 4IS a $80k vehicle?

And sure, I dont particularly like my A7 either, if you could not tell by my posts.

In any case, what I wanted to say, in a nice, funny way, was that you cant watch market through your own eyes only - it is great that you want torque vectoring but that does not mean every car should have it. It makes no sense for every 4IS to have AWD, just like it doesnt make sense for every 3 series to have AWD, and it never will.

Why would you selectively quote just part of my post lol? Are you so shallow to try and pick an argument and pretend you have the upper hand?

I never demanded Lexus offer it. It was just my idea. I am definitely nothing like you who think Toyota will give a sheet what you think.

Maybe if you can read my post in totality, you would sound less like a jerc. What the fek are you taking about an $80k 4IS, where did I say that? My budget for a BEV with torque vectoring is $80k USD which is why I used that as the high end of my range. I am not waiting for a $50k USD BEV with TV because it likely won't happen with inflation.

I didn't see your comment on feature creep for majority of consumer goods (heck, even industrial ones)..You don't believe that TV will trickle to slightly cheaper models in a few years? Now that I will have to laugh off.

 

[ssun30]

I think the GA-N IS should be around 1600kg for base RWD and up to 1800kg for top trim AWD which is quite common for this segment. The Crown should be a good reference point since it is built to Lexus standards using high grade materials and its weight reprents a Lexus at similar size.

when it comes to german engines, everything is awesome on paper...

You sure about that? At least the B48/58 are the golden standard in their segment. Good power, response, economy, emissions, everything. Don't know about absolute reliability but the B48 is one of the relatively more reliable turbocharged engines out there.

M256, also solid. EA211 Evo.2, great.

Every company has highs and lows.

 

[spwolf]

You sure about that? At least the B48/58 are the golden standard in their segment. Good power, response, economy, emissions, everything. Don't know about the reliability but the B48 is one of the more reliable tur

Not really, I was thinking more of their hybrids, be that mild or plugin and how they cover every base, but reality is always more limiting.

 

[Levi]

Anyone knows how true it is of next generation A4/A5 to be FWD? And of next AMG C to get I4 hybrid?

 

[Gecko]

Anyone knows how true it is of next generation A4/A5 to be FWD?

They already are, right - with optional Quattro? A4 is at least, but I assume they keep A5 with standard AWD because it's supposed to be premium.

 

[spwolf]

They already are, right - with optional Quattro? A4 is at least, but I assume they keep A5 with standard AWD because it's supposed to be premium.

that is in US only... in EU, most of A4/A5s are FWD 2.0 tdi, and a lot of A6's are also FWD 2.0 tdi (probably more than 70%, but there are decent number of 3.0tdi Quattros around).

 

[wyvern]

c

They already are, right - with optional Quattro? A4 is at least, but I assume they keep A5 with standard AWD because it's supposed to be premium.

I think there was a rumour a while back that in order to cut costs following dieselgate, Audi were going to cut the MLB platform. A4 and A5 were set to move onto MQB (making them transerve FWD unlike their current longitudinal FWD format) and A6 to A8 were going to move onto MSB (currently used for the Panamera and Continental GT).

I think the effects of dieselgate have been quite noticeable on VAG, from the new Golf using a carryover platform and carryover engines, to the discontinuation of the Bentley Mulsanne with no direct replacement leaving Bentley without a rival to the new Rolls Royce Phantom. Reminds me of how the quality of many Toyota products declined and the rate of platform and engine refreshes slowed after the burst of the Japanese asset bubble in the early 90s. I'm interested to see what other impacts dieselgate will have on VAG product development

 

[spwolf]

c

I think there was a rumour a while back that in order to cut costs following dieselgate, Audi were going to cut the MLB platform. A4 and A5 were set to move onto MQB (making them transerve FWD unlike their current longitudinal FWD format) and A6 to A8 were going to move onto MSB (currently used for the Panamera and Continental GT).

I think the effects of dieselgate have been quite noticeable on VAG, from the new Golf using a carryover platform and carryover engines, to the discontinuation of the Bentley Mulsanne with no direct replacement leaving Bentley without a rival to the new Rolls Royce Phantom. Reminds me of how the quality of many Toyota products declined and the rate of platform and engine refreshes slowed after the burst of the Japanese asset bubble in the early 90s. I'm interested to see what other impacts dieselgate will have on VAG product development

VW has always been bean counting company like TMC, so I dont think that changed.

While I laughed at their initial BEV and especially PHEV vehicles, I think if they really go through it, they have a good chance with ID4 to do something in Europe and possibly China. And if they do well with it, it will also open up Europe EV market for other manufacturers too.

 

[thtupid]

I'm just worried that, as of April 2020, there still has been no mules, no prototypes or design concepts, no trademarks (I think) made for the IS. 3IS is older than the NX. Yet, the NX has been trademarked and confirmed to be out already was it next year? I know the NX sells a lot more nowadays but still...nothing confirmed for the IS. I just hope it's me being ignorant rather than a sign that the car is being phased out along with the GS...
As for engines, I still reckon a base 2L turbo or something equivelant to roughly 180kw, a more powerful 2.5L hybrid around 180kws, something arouhd 250kw in the guise of a 2.4L turbo or something and maybe, if the range stretches far enough, a detuned 3.5L twin turbo and or a more powerful hybrid/phev. The IS has always been 2-3 engines since first gen. With the GS gone maybe it can afford to go an extra one or two.

btw if i'm being ignorant, please direct me to some recent articles that proves i'm being worried over nothing.

 

[Will1991]

@thtupid , look to the Yaris based SUV, the first time we saw a test mule was after the initial release date. Yes, I would love to see them evolve, to have some more debates, but from that point I think we're quite safe.

Toyota is secretive as hell, I honestly don't know how they manage to keep everything under wraps as long as they do.

 

[CRSKTN]

@thtupid , look to the Yaris based SUV, the first time we saw a test mule was after the initial release date. Yes, I would love to see them evolve, to have some more debates, but from that point I think we're quite safe.

Toyota is secretive as hell, I honestly don't know how they manage to keep everything under wraps as long as they do.

I imagine having a city named after your company, where you also housed and fed everyone during the recession, and being known for having relatively low executive compensation relative to workers, while also being world leading in many ways, can buy them a few roads to test on where people aren't going to want to leak.

"I am just in town trying to sneak photos of some new Toyota vehicles, do you know whe-"

Japan murder rate doubles.

 

[internalaudit]

@thtupid , look to the Yaris based SUV, the first time we saw a test mule was after the initial release date. Yes, I would love to see them evolve, to have some more debates, but from that point I think we're quite safe.

Toyota is secretive as hell, I honestly don't know how they manage to keep everything under wraps as long as they do.

If this is any indication, we should expect more fun cars from Toyota/Lexus. Still think the Corolla hatchback has a slightly smaller interior volume compared to my CT200h. Maybe I am wrong but I tried sitting behind myself in the Corolla on two separate occasions and only had a maximum of two inches of knee room.

257-HP Toyota GR Corolla Turbocharged Hot Hatch Is Coming

With the same turbo three-cylinder as the rally-inspired GR Yaris, this car aims to prove that a Corolla can be as cool as a GTI.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[Sulu]

I imagine having a city named after your company, where you also housed and fed everyone during the recession, and being known for having relatively low executive compensation relative to workers, while also being world leading in many ways, can buy them a few roads to test on where people aren't going to want to leak.

"I am just in town trying to sneak photos of some new Toyota vehicles, do you know whe-"
View attachment 3831
Japan murder rate doubles.

I seem to remember reading something some time ago that said that Toyota has a secret test facility under Mount Fuji (said as a joke, no doubt) so that it is well hidden away from prying eyes.

 

[Sulu]

If this is any indication, we should expect more fun cars from Toyota/Lexus. Still think the Corolla hatchback has a slightly smaller interior volume compared to my CT200h. Maybe I am wrong but I tried sitting behind myself in the Corolla on two separate occasions and only had a maximum of two inches of knee room.

257-HP Toyota GR Corolla Turbocharged Hot Hatch Is Coming

With the same turbo three-cylinder as the rally-inspired GR Yaris, this car aims to prove that a Corolla can be as cool as a GTI.

www.caranddriver.com

I have not compared the Corolla Hatchback to the CT but I would agree with your observation. The TNGA platforms (especially the FWD) do not seem to be very space-efficient, IMO. Rear seat space is tight (Corolla, C-HR, UX) and the trunk / cargo area floor is high, limiting cargo space (Corolla, C-HR, UX, Camry, ES).

 

[thtupid]

If this is any indication, we should expect more fun cars from Toyota/Lexus. Still think the Corolla hatchback has a slightly smaller interior volume compared to my CT200h. Maybe I am wrong but I tried sitting behind myself in the Corolla on two separate occasions and only had a maximum of two inches of knee room.

257-HP Toyota GR Corolla Turbocharged Hot Hatch Is Coming

With the same turbo three-cylinder as the rally-inspired GR Yaris, this car aims to prove that a Corolla can be as cool as a GTI.

www.caranddriver.com

I for one am excited with what is happening with the GR sub brand. But that is the thing. I am excited because there are news and rumours circulating pretty much every so often to keep interests up. With lexus, however, it just doesn't seem to be there. With the F brand, mirai based sedan that is suppose to replace the GS and with the topic at hand, the IS.

 

[Levi]

They already are, right - with optional Quattro? A4 is at least, but I assume they keep A5 with standard AWD because it's supposed to be premium.

FWD like Subaru, but still equal length driveshafts and long mounted symetrical engine. While Porsche Cayenne can be considered FWD, is still is not as FWD as the Lexus RX when you compare their AWD versions.

 

[Sebass]

Been thinking about this car and the mix of rumors we've heard... I think there is a chance the new 2.X turbo 4 cylinder could debut on the IS after all. When I heard "carryover engines," it was because the names did not change and there were no new trademarks like "IS 400" or something. To our point in the NX thread, Lexus is probably using "350" for the new turbo 4 cylinder, so an "IS 350" might not necessarily mean carryover V6.

With that in mind, I could be wrong and overly optimistic, but what I am thinking is: there will be two models, but three engines on the 4IS.

1) IS 300h: easy to assume with 2.5L hybrid 4 cylinder, ~220hp
2) IS 350: core IS model with new 2.X turbo 4cylinder and ~300hp/325lb-ft of torque
3) IS 350 F Sport: Sport model with carryover GR V6, 311hp/277lb-ft of torque (F-Sport comes only in V6)

Does this seem stupid? Yes. But I honestly think Lexus will say, "Oh, sporty shoppers will want to have a V6 and it's more powerful on paper, so we can say we offered one" not thinking those same buyers will realize the turbo 4 has more torque, nearly the same horsepower, and is a brand new design.

For global markets where the IS is offered, I cannot see them offering the 8AR-FTS into 2025 and beyond. If it's true that this IS is all-new and on a TNGA platform, I think it makes sense for them to drop a newer "core" engine into it and then they keep the V6 for North America to satisfy who they think are sporty shoppers. Plus, if this new turbo 4 cylinder is to become Toyota's core workhorse engine, there is production efficiency in moving everything possible over to new TNGA engines and platforms. They still use the GR V6 everywhere (sedans, SUVs, trucks), so it's easy to just keep making that for a small subset of "sporty" buyers. 8AR-FTS is a lower volume engine and has been succeeded by 300h powertrain and this new turbo 4.

I agree with you that not offering the new turbo 4 in F Sport trim would be stupid, considering it will undoubtedly feel fresher, stronger, and faster than the V6. Despite the fact that the turbo 4 is almost guaranteed to be more sporty than the V6, it is important to remember that even if the V6 is just a carryover from 3IS, with the benefits coming of what will most likely be the TNGA (GA-N) platform, the 4IS V6 is likely to be a better sports sedan and performer than the current one. Some of these benefits I believe will include extra rigidity, as seen in other TNGA vehicles, lighter weight from hopefully using lighter exterior end internal metals, and most importantly that amazing 10 speed automatic in LS/LC 500. The biggest reasons the Current IS 350 F Sport is either just as fast or slower than the german turbo 4 cylinders, that have less horsepower than it does, are that it is...
- Heavier
- has a sluggish/economy-minded 8 speed despite not being economical
- lacks torque at low rpm, (only 275 lb-f tcompared to 295 in 330i).
even if V6 is carryover if it gets the 10 speed and other benefits of the TNGA platform, the V6 F Sport could become slightly faster than the BMW 330i, (0-60 in 5.4) and almost as fast as the Audi A4 2.0t Quattro, (0-60 in 5.2). For the record, the Audi is the class leader when it comes to acceleration in the base engines.
Despite the fact that I have justified a carryover V6, and only the carryover V6 getting the F sport trim, I want to clarify that this is not the scenario I would like. In My ideal world, the next-gen IS would get basically everything you predicted, but instead of having a carryover V6, it would have an all-new TNGA V6, with a similar displacement but far more aggressive, powerful, and efficient. Every trim would get the F sport package, and all models including the hybrid would get the glorious 10 speed. I hate how all Toyota/Lexus hybrids have CVTs.