The Future of the IS Thread

[Sebass]

All Toyota and Lexus hybrids use an eCVT, an electronic CVT, that is absolutely nothing like a mechanical "crappy CVT" that you would see on a Toyota Corolla.

And, in fact, that 10-speed hybrid transmission that you refer to is not a real 10-speed transmission, and is not related at all to the 10-speed transmission used on the LC 500 and LS 500; the transmissions used in the non-hybrid and hybrid LC and LS are 2 entirely different transmissions. The 10-speed hybrid transmission uses the eCVT (with 3 simulated transmission speeds) and a mechanical 4-speed planetary gear transmission, electronically-coupled together to produce a 10-speed transmission.

I am well aware that the 10 speed in the hybrid LC and LS is not actually a 10 speed, and that it has nothing to do with the 10 speed in the nonhybrid LC and LS. I was not referring to the hybrid 10 speed, rather I was curious if the crown was an exception to the rule of Toyota and Lexus only putting eCVT's in their hybrids. You seem to know more about the Crown than I do, and I was curious if it used the actual 10 speed in the LC and LS nonhybrids, but I guess it doesn'. As to the eCVT not being crap, when it comes to smoothness and fuel economy it is certainly not crap, but when it comes to the fun of driving and that annoying drone noise, I believe it to be absolutely terrible. I don't mind it in the UX and CT, because they only look sporty and will never be driven by hooligans. However, on anything else, (nudge, nudge, hybrid UX F that Lexus should totally make and advertise as the highest MPG performance car ever made!) It doesn't belong. The hybrid 10 speed that isn't really a 10 speed isn't much better. The simulated gear changes from what I've seen, don't sound or feel anything like a real gear change, and the engine keeps on humming. (The fake gear changes are a bit better on the LC500 than the LS500). If Lexus put the real 10 speed on all its cars except for maybe normal UX and CT, I would praise them for an eternity. All in all, thank you for telling me that the hybrid crown with the V6 doesn't come with the actual 10 speed.

 

[internalaudit]

Will the two-gear transmission in the Taycan ever make sense for a PHEV or HEV? I mean Toyota already mashed up the eCVT with an auto tranny, why not just put two eCVT's in there?

 

[Sebass]

Will the two-gear transmission in the Taycan ever make sense for a PHEV or HEV? I mean Toyota already mashed up the eCVT with an auto tranny, why not just put two eCVT's in there?

After reading an article from Car and Driver on the Taycan's transmission, it looks very innovative and miles better in all aspects including range, performance, top speed, and efficiency when compared to 1 speed EV's. When Lexus does make an all-electric vehicle or a HFCEV, I think a two speed would be the optimal transmission. Your idea of combining 2 eCVTS' sounds promising, but I don't know the science behind that or if it would actually work. As for whether the Taycan's transmission would make sense for a PHEV or HEV, I get a feeling that it was really only designed for EV's. All I can really say is that just like Lexus's eCVt cars, the two speed would create a very annoying drone sound when overtaking on the highway, or when being revved up to redline, (in cars with a gas motor). If Lexus puts an eCVT, 2 speed, CVT, etc, in any future performance-oriented ICE car, (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, NX 450h+) It's going to be an instant turn off for me.

Heres that Car and Driver Article:

Why the Porsche Taycan EV's Two-Speed Transmission Is a Big Deal

Most electric cars have a single-speed direct-drive gearbox, but the Taycan's rear axle uses a two-speed setup for improved acceleration and range.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[internalaudit]

After reading an article from Car and Driver on the Taycan's transmission, it looks very innovative and miles better in all aspects including range, performance, top speed, and efficiency when compared to 1 speed EV's. When Lexus does make an all-electric vehicle or a HFCEV, I think a two speed would be the optimal transmission. Your idea of combining 2 eCVTS' sounds promising, but I don't know the science behind that or if it would actually work. As for whether the Taycan's transmission would make sense for a PHEV or HEV, I get a feeling that it was really only designed for EV's. All I can really say is that just like Lexus's eCVt cars, the two speed would create a very annoying drone sound when overtaking on the highway, or when being revved up to redline, (in cars with a gas motor). If Lexus puts an eCVT, 2 speed, CVT, etc, in any future performance-oriented ICE car, (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, NX 450h+) It's going to be an instant turn off for me.

Heres that Car and Driver Article:

Why the Porsche Taycan EV's Two-Speed Transmission Is a Big Deal

Most electric cars have a single-speed direct-drive gearbox, but the Taycan's rear axle uses a two-speed setup for improved acceleration and range.

www.caranddriver.com

I was surprised to find out from a Tesla fanboy that even the PTV Plus is really more like brake-based torque vectoring with some locking of differentials. I'm not really that mechanically-inclined to understand the mumbo jumbo:

What is Porsche Torque Vectoring? | PVT vs. PVT Plus | Models With PVT

Enjoy improved handling and agility when commanding a Porsche equipped with Porsche Torque Vectoring (PVT). Discover how this features works with Porsche Fremont!

www.porschefremont.com

Taycan:

The chassis: Committed to driving dynamics

From uncompromisingly sporty to comfortable: the chassis of the new Taycan offers a broad spectrum, with the choice between the precise handling of a sports car and the long-distance comfort of a saloon.

newsroom.porsche.com

brake-based mentioned in PTV Plus on the Macan though so there is no consistency in the usage of PTV Plus across the line up.

Porsche Macan model overview - Porsche Canada

The Porsche Macan. A Sports Car that is practical but never ordinary. With 5 doors and 5 seats. With plenty of space for hobbies, leisure and sport.

www.porsche.com

Maybe waiting for that Li-S battery (Toyota's SSB) and electric torque vectoring in the IS or GS is what I'll have to do lol.

 

[Sebass]

I am no mechanical geek either, but from reading all these articles, it really doesn't surprise me how much all car journalists seem to praise how new Porsches drive. I really do have to give Porsche props, they really do care about performance and how their cars drive. No wonder the new 911 Carrerra S won Motor Trends Drivers Car of 2019. Porsche crams so much technology into their cars to make them the ultimate driving machines. (lol, I realize that that's BMW's slogan). Especially with the new Taycan, they have really outdone themselves. I know I sound like a Porsche fanboy and that I'm really scratching their back right now, but I'm really not a Porsche fanboy. I may be scratching their backs a bit though. I know the GS F and RC F can be had with a TVD, but does either one have brake-based torque vectoring? I am pretty sure the LC 500 can't be had with any form of a TVD, but I have heard it still drives well due to it having rear-wheel steering. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[internalaudit]

I am no mechanical geek either, but from reading all these articles, it really doesn't surprise me how much all car journalists seem to praise how new Porsches drive. I really do have to give Porsche props, they really do care about performance and how their cars drive. No wonder the new 911 Carrerra S won Motor Trends Drivers Car of 2019. Porsche crams so much technology into their cars to make them the ultimate driving machines. (lol, I realize that that's BMW's slogan). Especially with the new Taycan, they have really outdone themselves. I know I sound like a Porsche fanboy and that I'm really scratching their back right now, but I'm really not a Porsche fanboy. I may be scratching their backs a bit though. I know the GS F and RC F can be had with a TVD, but does either one have brake-based torque vectoring? I am pretty sure the LC 500 can't be had with any form of a TVD, but I have heard it still drives well due to it having rear-wheel steering. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think the GSF and RCF have brake-based torque vectoring. Even Acura's SH-AWD isn't brake-based. Porsche is probably just cheapening out on its Macan's PTV Plus lol because no where in the Taycan's product page does it mention brake-based.

Even owners of Porsche's (on Macan or Taycan forums) recommend opting for torque vectoring as it really makes a lot of difference.

I do believe only the GSF and RCF have TVD.

On electric cars, I think the only draw back of electric motor torque vectoring is the inability to lock (like in locking differentials) but not really sure why I want them to lock unless I'm off-roading. There's no added complexity (software-based), it's 3-4x faster than mechanical torque vectoring according to e-tron S explanation

All the Right Moves: 2021 Audi e-tron S Sportback

Three electric motors, more power, and electric torque vectoring improve the e-tron's handling.

www.caranddriver.com

and will make heavy cars really fun to drive

Matt Farrah's GSF Review - ClubLexus - Lexus Forum Discussion

RC F (2015-present) - Matt Farrah's GSF Review - Not an RCF review, but a great review with common elements. I agree TVD is my favorite part of the car second only to the engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A5o6CKwYhI

www.clublexus.com

 

[Levi]

Porsche is cheap on some things. 911 has fake TV and MacPherson front strut. It is a joke.

 

[Will1991]

Will the two-gear transmission in the Taycan ever make sense for a PHEV or HEV? I mean Toyota already mashed up the eCVT with an auto tranny, why not just put two eCVT's in there?

It has more to do with driving feel... With the automatic transmission you can have a more mechanical feel, for a eCVT to do the same it would require a hell of a electric engine and battery combination... And a really heavy duty gearbox to withstand those forces...

Toyota’s eCVT is quite a fit of engineering, but does lack the usual mechanical feel of a locked gear due to their construction and working principle.

This will be a oversimplification but it might help to better explain myself:
All manuals and automatics gearboxes have one input (engine flywheel) and one output (output shaft that might go to the front, to the rear,...).
If your input (engine speed) goes up, your output will go up on the same proportion (manual gearbox, DCT’s) or have some adicional ‘multiplication’ (automatic gearbox with torque converter, mainly for first and reverse, Lexus managed to have full lock-up, or act almost as a manual, on second gear with a torque converter, quite good).
Even CVT’s have only one input and one output.

But a eCVT doesn’t work like that, your output shaft depends on two inputs (Engine+MG1 and MG2). This is why you can have the same output with different engine loads. Your output shaft is a combination of two different input shafts that can work *almost* independently of each other (engine+MG1 and MG2) within some technical limits. This is why you can have 40km/h with full EV propulsion ~(with every combination possible up to)~ full engine propulsion.

 

[CRSKTN]

It has more to do with driving feel... With the automatic transmission you can have a more mechanical feel, for a eCVT to do the same it would require a hell of a electric engine and battery combination...

Toyota’s eCVT is quite a fit of engineering, but does lack the usual mechanical feel of a locked gear due to their construction and working principle.

This will be a oversimplification but it might help to better explain myself:
All manuals and automatics gearboxes have one input (engine flywheel) and one output (output shaft that might go to the front, to the rear,...).
If your input (engine speed) goes up, your output will go up on the same proportion (manual gearbox, DCT’s) or have some adicional ‘multiplication’ (automatic gearbox with torque converter, mainly for first and reverse, Lexus managed to have full lock-up, or act almost as a manual, on second gear with a torque converter, quite good).
Even CVT’s have only one input and one output.

But a eCVT doesn’t work like that, your output shaft depends on two inputs (Engine+MG1 and MG2). This is why you can have the same output with different engine loads. Your output shaft is a combination of two different input shafts that can work *almost* independently of each other (engine+MG1 and MG2) within some technical limits. This is why you can have 40km/h with full EV propulsion ~(with every combination possible up to)~ full engine propulsion.

Have you driven the LC500 hybrid?

 

[Sebass]

Porsche is cheap on some things. 911 has fake TV and MacPherson front strut. It is a joke.

Yeah, all brands have their weaknesses, (cough, cough, Lexus having 3 vehicles in their lineup that have been on sale for 11 + years.) 😣😢😡

 

[Will1991]

Have you driven the LC500 hybrid?

Sadly no, but it surely has a more mechanical feel than the 450h.

 

[Sebass]

It has more to do with driving feel... With the automatic transmission you can have a more mechanical feel, for a eCVT to do the same it would require a hell of a electric engine and battery combination... And a really heavy duty gearbox to withstand those forces...

Toyota’s eCVT is quite a fit of engineering, but does lack the usual mechanical feel of a locked gear due to their construction and working principle.

This will be a oversimplification but it might help to better explain myself:
All manuals and automatics gearboxes have one input (engine flywheel) and one output (output shaft that might go to the front, to the rear,...).
If your input (engine speed) goes up, your output will go up on the same proportion (manual gearbox, DCT’s) or have some adicional ‘multiplication’ (automatic gearbox with torque converter, mainly for first and reverse, Lexus managed to have full lock-up, or act almost as a manual, on second gear with a torque converter, quite good).
Even CVT’s have only one input and one output.

But a eCVT doesn’t work like that, your output shaft depends on two inputs (Engine+MG1 and MG2). This is why you can have the same output with different engine loads. Your output shaft is a combination of two different input shafts that can work *almost* independently of each other (engine+MG1 and MG2) within some technical limits. This is why you can have 40km/h with full EV propulsion ~(with every combination possible up to)~ full engine propulsion.

I have no idea what this means, but Bravo!

 

[CRSKTN]

Sadly no, but it surely has a more mechanical feel than the 450h.

Yeah, i've heard good things, Honestly based on what i've seen, if i just need a daily driver and was completely done with needing a V8 in it (or having other cars for that), the hybrid-mechanical systems are attractive.

I also think this is very important because if Toyota/Lexus can be the company that gives you an EV that can "rev" and "shift" like a normal car, especially for performance people, that might be a really attractive differentiator.

E-axle RWD/AWD systems with enhanced driving dynamics + hybrid-mechanical transmission = Who wants to neutral drop an EV?

I mean, even if it's not really entirely... necessary? It could provide some benefits, who knows, but I would love the idea of driving something that doesn't feel like a golf cart (Tesla's simulated solutions are good, but far from the same thing).

 

[internalaudit]

I have no idea what this means, but Bravo!

Me too lol.

 

[Sulu]

I am well aware that the 10 speed in the hybrid LC and LS is not actually a 10 speed, and that it has nothing to do with the 10 speed in the nonhybrid LC and LS. I was not referring to the hybrid 10 speed, rather I was curious if the crown was an exception to the rule of Toyota and Lexus only putting eCVT's in their hybrids. You seem to know more about the Crown than I do, and I was curious if it used the actual 10 speed in the LC and LS nonhybrids, but I guess it doesn'. As to the eCVT not being crap, when it comes to smoothness and fuel economy it is certainly not crap, but when it comes to the fun of driving and that annoying drone noise, I believe it to be absolutely terrible. I don't mind it in the UX and CT, because they only look sporty and will never be driven by hooligans. However, on anything else, (nudge, nudge, hybrid UX F that Lexus should totally make and advertise as the highest MPG performance car ever made!) It doesn't belong. The hybrid 10 speed that isn't really a 10 speed isn't much better. The simulated gear changes from what I've seen, don't sound or feel anything like a real gear change, and the engine keeps on humming. (The fake gear changes are a bit better on the LC500 than the LS500). If Lexus put the real 10 speed on all its cars except for maybe normal UX and CT, I would praise them for an eternity. All in all, thank you for telling me that the hybrid crown with the V6 doesn't come with the actual 10 speed.

The information I found says that the new Toyota Crown is available with 2 hybrid powertrains, 1 being a 4-cylinder hybrid (same engine as in ESh and probably with the simple Power-Split Device (also known as the eCVT)) and the other being a 6-cylinder hybrid shared with the LS 500h.

 

[krew]

The information I found says that the new Toyota Crown is available with 2 hybrid powertrains, 1 being a 4-cylinder hybrid (same engine as in ESh and probably with the simple Power-Split Device (also known as the eCVT)) and the other being a 6-cylinder hybrid shared with the LS 500h.

I’m curious to see how that V6 hybrid performs in a vehicle that isn’t the LS 500h. Not a huge fan of that virtual CVT transmission.

 

[Sulu]

It has more to do with driving feel... With the automatic transmission you can have a more mechanical feel, for a eCVT to do the same it would require a hell of a electric engine and battery combination... And a really heavy duty gearbox to withstand those forces...

Toyota’s eCVT is quite a fit of engineering, but does lack the usual mechanical feel of a locked gear due to their construction and working principle.

This will be a oversimplification but it might help to better explain myself:
All manuals and automatics gearboxes have one input (engine flywheel) and one output (output shaft that might go to the front, to the rear,...).
If your input (engine speed) goes up, your output will go up on the same proportion (manual gearbox, DCT’s) or have some adicional ‘multiplication’ (automatic gearbox with torque converter, mainly for first and reverse, Lexus managed to have full lock-up, or act almost as a manual, on second gear with a torque converter, quite good).
Even CVT’s have only one input and one output.

But a eCVT doesn’t work like that, your output shaft depends on two inputs (Engine+MG1 and MG2). This is why you can have the same output with different engine loads. Your output shaft is a combination of two different input shafts that can work *almost* independently of each other (engine+MG1 and MG2) within some technical limits. This is why you can have 40km/h with full EV propulsion ~(with every combination possible up to)~ full engine propulsion.

To add to what @Will1991 said about the eCVT, I want to add the following.

Firstly, it is more properly called a Power-Split Device (PSD); it is not really a continuously-variable transmission because it cannot continuously change the transmission gear ratio as a true CVT can. And other automakers use a similar PSD in their hybrid vehicles but they do not call their hybrid transmissions eCVT. GM (in the Chevrolet Volt) and Fiat-Chrysler (in the Pacifica Hybrid) both use PSDs but do not call them eCVTs.

I wish Toyota had never called their hybrid transmission an eCVT; it just unnecessarily complicates things -- people (especially North American auto reviewers, most of whom do not understand automotive powertrains) read "eCVT" and think "CVT, it will moan and groan, and slip".

The PSD is a mechanical gearset that allows the power from 2 different sources -- 1 being the internal combustion engine (ICE) and the other being an electric motor (labelled MG2) -- to drive the vehicle separately (electric motor drive or engine drive) or together (electric motor drive and engine drive); this is parallel hybrid mode.

Furthermore, there is another electric motor, acting as a generator (labelled MG1), that is turned by the ICE. This second motor-generator allows for a separate, serial hybrid mode, where only the electric motor MG2 drives the vehicle, while MG1, driven by the ICE, recharges the battery.

The ingenuity of a PSD is that it can allow all of the ICE's available power to drive the generator (MG1), allow all of the ICE's available power to drive the vehicle, or any proportion in between. The engine rpm remains constant and the PSD shares the power between MG1 and the vehicle, depending upon how much engine power is needed to drive the vehicle. Because the engine rpm remains constant, it just feels like a CVT.

Knowing how the eCVT works, I would say that you would not want to couple 2 PSDs/eCVTs. You could couple the PSD (that all Toyota hybrids use) with other automatic transmissions (2-speed up to multi-speed, limited only by the physical space available in the engine bay).

 

[internalaudit]

So what transmission is in those Chinese bound BEVs?

 

[Sulu]

I’m curious to see how that V6 hybrid performs in a vehicle that isn’t the LS 500h. Not a huge fan of that virtual CVT transmission.

I personally believe that combining the PSD with an automatic transmission is a good idea but Toyota/Lexus went too far with the Multi-Stage Hybrid System, electronically (in software) combining 3 virtual transmission speeds with 4 mechanical transmission speeds to produce 9 speeds plus 1 overdrive speed. This is just too complicated.

I think that Toyota could have combined the PSD (without virtual gears) with a 6-speed automatic transmission to create a hybrid vehicle with a 6-speed automatic transmission.

 

[mikeavelli]

I owned a GS 450h and have driven the LC 500h internationally as well as here. It’s a marvel. It’s a shame there is no marketing behind it. The trick dual transmission is light years ahead of the normal CVT.

It was stunning quite frankly.