Tesla - Brand Perception/Opinions

CRSKTN

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Also

https://www.autonews.com/regulation-safety/biden-administration-said-slow-down-ev-transition

I don’t hate EVs at all but no reason for any credits or anything else. Let the market decide.

I get the idea of 'let the market decide', especially given my background, but there are some things that we can't leave up to the market. 'Let the market decide' would still have kids down mine shafts. Also some countries used to have a 'market' where human beings weren't considered human beings, but free labour or temporary spare parts storage.

Sometimes you need centrally guided policy to help motivate R&D and other spend.

We wouldn't have any of the technology we are using today without programs like NASA and the subsequent private market incentives that have been structured to motivate investment.
 

mikeavelli

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I get the idea of 'let the market decide', especially given my background, but there are some things that we can't leave up to the market. 'Let the market decide' would still have kids down mine shafts. Also some countries used to have a 'market' where human beings weren't considered human beings, but free labour or temporary spare parts storage.

Sometimes you need centrally guided policy to help motivate R&D and other spend.

We wouldn't have any of the technology we are using today without programs like NASA and the subsequent private market incentives that have been structured to motivate investment.

I don’t disagree as yes people would be exploited completely without some sort of govt intervention (thank you Teddy). Didn’t mean to say just let the market run free free lol. Definitely with you.

It’s just easy to see without the credit sales drop fast. Manufacturers dropped prices just to meet the credit. etc etc.

And again the government saying EVs are cleaner and better and this is better for the environment etc etc is just propaganda.
 

CRSKTN

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I don’t disagree as yes people would be exploited completely without some sort of govt intervention (thank you Teddy). Didn’t mean to say just let the market run free free lol. Definitely with you.

It’s just easy to see without the credit sales drop fast. Manufacturers dropped prices just to meet the credit. etc etc.

And again the government saying EVs are cleaner and better and this is better for the environment etc etc is just propaganda.

It's aspirational, and these technologies step change over time. I think we present the future we strive for and do our best from there but I get the concept you're presenting.
 

mikeavelli

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Like much of the rest of the world, Germany previously provided tax incentives to citizens purchasing electric vehicles. However, in December, the nation’s government abruptly decided to end the incentive program, and in the aftermath EV sales have cratered.


Compared to December 2023, sales of new electric vehicles were down 54.9 percent, while sales of plug-in hybrids were down 19.6 percent in the first month of 2024. On the other hand, the markets for vehicles with internal combustion engines were up more than 9 percent — +9.1 percent for gas, +9.5 percent for diesel.
 

spwolf

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From your article

According to the site, sales of EVs fell by 14 percent in the U.S. and Canada between December 2023 and January this year. During the same period, the drop was more substantial in the EU and China, which posted decreases of 32 percent and 26 percent respectively.

Obviously EV sales will rise when you are still a tiny portion of sales. Nowhere to go but up.

Mike, it is 1,000,000 BEVs sold worldwide in January 2024.

Thats 1 million.

They are not tiny portion of sales. It is worldwide 15% of all new cars purchased. This includes 3rd world countries where bev sales are close to 0.

For instance - BEVs sales by percentage is now bigger than diesel at its prime in 2019. So today BEVs are more popular worldwide than diesels ever were.

And yes, sales in January will be slower than sales in December.
 

Och

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Diesels also didn't have incentives, weren't fleet purchased by municipalities, and there were no restrictions on petrol cars, carbon credits, etc. Diesels were crap and failed on their own merit. EVs are worse than diesel for the most part, they are only suitable as a second/commuter car for wealthy suburbanites. Other than Tesla, most automakers internally look at their own EVs as compliance junk that they have to deal with - and it shows through and through in the build quality of most EVs from mainstream brands.
 

spwolf

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Diesels also didn't have incentives, weren't fleet purchased by municipalities, and there were no restrictions on petrol cars, carbon credits, etc. Diesels were crap and failed on their own merit. EVs are worse than diesel for the most part, they are only suitable as a second/commuter car for wealthy suburbanites. Other than Tesla, most automakers internally look at their own EVs as compliance junk that they have to deal with - and it shows through and through in the build quality of most EVs from mainstream brands.

Uh, i understand you are from US but here we talk about worldwide sales.

Diesels had up to 50% share in some european countries, which is why they were 14% worldwide. They were absolutely incentivized by taxes on both vehicles and fuel, plus large percentage of purchases were fleet.

In any case, bev rising to 15% worldwide is crazy high.
 

Och

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Diesels had up to 50% share in some european countries, which is why they were 14% worldwide. They were absolutely incentivized by taxes on both vehicles and fuel, plus large percentage of purchases were fleet.

There were no direct incentives for diesel, quite the opposite, governments in the EU and the US became hostile to diesels by mandating prohibitive emissions systems. Older diesels provided substantially better fuel economy vs petrol, so 14% of buyers worldwide were willing to accept many inconveniences of diesels to save $ on fuel, but modern diesels turned into a complete joke, and the "dieselgate" put the final nail in their coffin.

I've owned a Ford Econoline 6.0 diesel and a Mercedes Sprinter 3.0 diesel - both work vehicles. They did provide substantially better fuel economy, but too many inconveniences and service headaches. I switched back to petrol and never looked back.
 

spwolf

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There were no direct incentives for diesel, quite the opposite, governments in the EU and the US became hostile to diesels by mandating prohibitive emissions systems. Older diesels provided substantially better fuel economy vs petrol, so 14% of buyers worldwide were willing to accept many inconveniences of diesels to save $ on fuel, but modern diesels turned into a complete joke, and the "dieselgate" put the final nail in their coffin.

I've owned a Ford Econoline 6.0 diesel and a Mercedes Sprinter 3.0 diesel - both work vehicles. They did provide substantially better fuel economy, but too many inconveniences and service headaches. I switched back to petrol and never looked back.


There were direct incentives based on co2, for recycling old cars. And for a very long time many countries had taxes based on co2, which favored diesels, and punished petrol vehicles.

Diesel fuel still has lower taxes than petrol in most European countries.

Corporations also have incentives to purchase cars for employees in many countries, and due to the above, diesels were #1 choice. In countries such as Germany, private car purchases are smaller part of market, fleet sales are majority.
 

Och

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There were direct incentives based on co2, for recycling old cars. And for a very long time many countries had taxes based on co2, which favored diesels, and punished petrol vehicles.

Diesel fuel still has lower taxes than petrol in most European countries.

Corporations also have incentives to purchase cars for employees in many countries, and due to the above, diesels were #1 choice. In countries such as Germany, private car purchases are smaller part of market, fleet sales are majority.

Fair enough, although it still doesn't seem like a direct diesel incentive, more of a low-co2-emission incentive, which would also favor petrol hybrids. This is not as blatant as incentives for EVs and restrictions on petrol cars we are seeing today.

I remember visiting Paris back in 2010 - the air had a distinct diesel exhaust stench everywhere. There were a lot of diesel passenger cars, and this was before most of them had modern emission systems. I also remember seeing a few Lexuses, all of them hybrids, including a LS600h - I understand hybrids used to enjoy some sort of benefits in EU, such as exempt from congestion charges, or something to that extent. I also hear Paris smells much worse than diesel fumes now, but thats a different story. :ROFLMAO:
 
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spwolf

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Fair enough, although it still doesn't seem like a direct diesel incentive, more of a low-co2-emission incentive, which would also favor petrol hybrids. This is not as blatant as incentives for EVs and restrictions on petrol cars we are seeing today.

I remember visiting Paris back in 2010 - the air had a distinct diesel exhaust stench everywhere. There were a lot of diesel passenger cars, and this was before most of them had modern emission systems. I also remember seeing a few Lexuses, all of them hybrids, including a LS600h - I understand hybrids used to enjoy some sort of benefits in EU, such as exempt from congestion charges, or something to that extent. I also hear Paris smells much worse than diesel fumes now, but thats a different story. :ROFLMAO:

Yeah, until PHEVs, only hybrids were Toyotas and until 4th gen, it was similar co2 to diesels for small cars but still smaller co2 for large cars. So you would buy a diesel because you get 5-10% tax discount as well.

Now that changed in past 5-6 years due to emissions laws and Euro7 coming into effect which made diesels more expensive, and started the disappearance.

Diesel fuel is still considered subsidized in many countries, and there is even blue diesel which is used for farm and boat equipment and has 2x smaller taxes.

Compared to petrol vehicles, diesels are much more frugal and a lot faster. So you paid more for a turbo diesel because it would use 8l/100km instead of 12l/100km plus it would be faster than comparable petrol.

But throughout the years, emissions would get much worse due to clogged equipment and yeah you would get terrible air inside cities.

All of the benefits meant people bought diesels exclusively for anything larger than a Corolla. Germany had something like 56% diesel take rate for a very long time... now it is under 10%.
 

Och

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Yeah, until PHEVs, only hybrids were Toyotas and until 4th gen, it was similar co2 to diesels for small cars but still smaller co2 for large cars. So you would buy a diesel because you get 5-10% tax discount as well.

Now that changed in past 5-6 years due to emissions laws and Euro7 coming into effect which made diesels more expensive, and started the disappearance.

Diesel fuel is still considered subsidized in many countries, and there is even blue diesel which is used for farm and boat equipment and has 2x smaller taxes.

Compared to petrol vehicles, diesels are much more frugal and a lot faster. So you paid more for a turbo diesel because it would use 8l/100km instead of 12l/100km plus it would be faster than comparable petrol.

But throughout the years, emissions would get much worse due to clogged equipment and yeah you would get terrible air inside cities.

All of the benefits meant people bought diesels exclusively for anything larger than a Corolla. Germany had something like 56% diesel take rate for a very long time... now it is under 10%.

In the US there are different issues with diesels that made me regret ever buying them. Any type of service, even the basic annual inspection, was always a headache. Most repair shops don't do diesel inspections, so it was either a specialty shop with long waits, or the dealer - so a quick 30 minute stop turns into a full day ordeal, at best. Any repairs, especially anything having to do with the unreliable emissions crap, pretty much meant a trip to the dealer, which meant scheduling an appointment far in advance and having them keep the vehicle for extended periods of time, and dealing with downtime.

Even filling up was somewhat annoying. There are relatively few gas stations here that carry diesel, and those that do are always filthy - since diesel fuel is essentially oil, it doesn't evaporate like petrol, so the pump handle and the floor around the pump are always covered with diesel. Pretty irritating even in a work truck, completely unacceptable for people driving passenger cars.

It is similar with EVs from mainstream brands, I hear horror stories of dealer repair shops not having certified technicians to work on EVs, and extensive lead times on parts from the manufacturer. Like I was saying earlier, mainstream manufacturers view EVs as annoying compliance headache they have to deal with, but they got a bunch of money from the government, so they slapped together a few very half assed EVs that nobody wants. At the same time, they are far more content selling $100k pickups that nobody can afford, and have completely abandoned reasonable, affordable models that people want. As much as I don't like the Chinese automakers, I can't wait for them to flood the US market, and put pressure on the established brands.

Meanwhile, everyone loves to hate on Tesla, but they are the only ones constantly expanding and improving, offering reasonable service, and not participating in the ridiculous price gouging. I don't care for EVs in general, but I absolutely respect Tesla for what they have accomplished.
 

CRSKTN

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Och

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First, I'd like to confirm this story is not a load of bs, or worse yet, not someone attempting to scam the bakery using Tesla's name. If the story checks out, I doubt very much Elon, or anyone relevant within Tesla, is even aware. The Tesla employee responsible for placing and cancelling the order is probably some entitled yet useless HR/diversity hire, and if the story reaches upper echelons at Tesla I hope they reimburse the bakery and fire the stupid c*** that caused this mess.
 

mikeavelli

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First, I'd like to confirm this story is not a load of bs, or worse yet, not someone attempting to scam the bakery using Tesla's name. If the story checks out, I doubt very much Elon, or anyone relevant within Tesla, is even aware. The Tesla employee responsible for placing and cancelling the order is probably some entitled yet useless HR/diversity hire, and if the story reaches upper echelons at Tesla I hope they reimburse the bakery and fire the stupid c*** that caused this mess.



It’s true.. Elon said he will make things right…

 

CRSKTN

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Even if he "makes it right", I'm not sure small bakeries are happy to wait the few months it'll take for the $16,000 to actually get to them.
 

mikeavelli

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Even if he "makes it right", I'm not sure small bakeries are happy to wait the few months it'll take for the $16,000 to actually get to them.

Oh i’m not condoning it and certainly not surprised. Could be some good PR for them if they ordered more lol.