Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[CIF]

IMO ... no worries my friend. I wish I had the depth of knowledge you always bring to your posts!

And to be clear, I appreciate the enthusiasm everyone brings to LE!

Thanks .

 

[mikeavelli]

Lexus hybrid technology seems to be most impressive right now. Hopefully we see some of this added to performance ala a GS 450h which in retrospect was way ahead of its time.

 

[telithos]

Lexus hybrid technology seems to be most impressive right now. Hopefully we see some of this added to performance ala a GS 450h which in retrospect was way ahead of its time.

I wish Toyota/Lexus would be a bit more adventurous with their hybrid powertrain applications. Many times, it seems the company just errs on the side of adequate. It would be fun to see something like the new 2L hybrid system in the new Corolla Hatchback or an optional 2.5L hybrid system in the UX (maybe rear motor only to help with weight distribution?). My experience is that their hybrid systems seem to punch quite a bit above what their max output would suggest, which is most likely a function of the instant torque from the electric motor(s), but horsepower limitations still apply. If you look at the NX300h, it's impressive that it can achieve the kind of gas mileage that it does on an SUV weighing more than 4000 lbs, but the power is the very definition of just adequate. The same can be said for the new ES300h with its newer generation of the technology. Its acceleration is decent due to the slightly more HP and lighter curb weight, but do luxury car buyers really want "decent" or "adequate"?

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

I, too, wish Toyota/Lexus would have more powertrain options, though not just with hybrids. I test drove a 2008 Yaris many years back and thought it was an underpowered lump with the meager 1.5l. If it had the 1.8l (1ZZ/2ZR?) to give it a little more kick, it would have been fine. Similarly, giving Corollas the option to get the Camry's 4cyl as a performance option would be nice. Heck, they already did that with the second Corolla XRS (2AZ). There was even the JDM Toyota Blade Master G Touring Edition (ugh) which was basically a Corolla hatchback with the 2GR.

Finally, if it would fit, it'd be awesome to see a V6 hybrid option on the K platform sedans (Camry, Avalon, ES, Auris) as a top-shelf option. Electric RWD for AWD functionality could be sweet.

 

[spwolf]

I, too, wish Toyota/Lexus would have more powertrain options, though not just with hybrids. I test drove a 2008 Yaris many years back and thought it was an underpowered lump with the meager 1.5l. If it had the 1.8l (1ZZ/2ZR?) to give it a little more kick, it would have been fine. Similarly, giving Corollas the option to get the Camry's 4cyl as a performance option would be nice. Heck, they already did that with the second Corolla XRS (2AZ). There was even the JDM Toyota Blade Master G Touring Edition (ugh) which was basically a Corolla hatchback with the 2GR.

Finally, if it would fit, it'd be awesome to see a V6 hybrid option on the K platform sedans (Camry, Avalon, ES, Auris) as a top-shelf option. Electric RWD for AWD functionality could be sweet.

Both new 2019 Corolla Hatch and 2018 Camry have very decent base engines.

Camry V6 is already only 8% of the sales, you can imagine how low would be vehicle that sells for extra $5k of that.

But it is still interesting that Toyota is bringing AWD Camry/Avalon/Prius to the USA.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

Fair enough, but my thought on this occurred a few years back, when I drove that Yaris and realized that Corollas had been stuck at ~130hp for over a decade, yet were growing heavier every year. The M20 should be a solid update.

Edit: And since they won't sell me a Yaris GRMN, at least sell me one with the M20 and a stick. I like little whippable cars around town.

 

[spwolf]

Fair enough, but my thought on this occurred a few years back, when I drove that Yaris and realized that Corollas had been stuck at ~130hp for over a decade, yet were growing heavier every year. The M20 should be a solid update.

Edit: And since they won't sell me a Yaris GRMN, at least sell me one with the M20 and a stick. I like little whippable cars around town.

well, if Japanese rumors are true, there will be a lot of GRMN versions with new 1.6 3cly turbo with 240hp in the future.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

new 2019 Corolla Hatch... have very decent base engines.

I just realized that the Corolla sedan is a carryover model, which is a disappointment.

 

[Levi]

I just realized that the Corolla sedan is a carryover model, which is a disappointment.

New Corolla Wagon and Sedan based on Hatch are coming.

Wagon: https://icdn-1.motor1.com/images/mgl/3x9k1/s1/2019-toyota-auris-wagon-spy-photo.jpg
Sedan: https://icdn-7.motor1.com/images/mgl/ORomo/s1/2020-toyota-corolla-spy-photo.jpg

I Corolla based Celica, as the last generation was is not impossible. Almost all TMC cars can have AWD, if they decide to.

 

[Rhambler]

I think part of Toyota’s problem is that they just got complacent. There was no sense of urgency in anything they did over the past almost two decades it seems. It’s hurting them now in my opinion.

They were like GM of old: fat, content and happy. Making appliances.

Others innovated, took risks, moved forward, Toyota didn’t.

Only recently did they realize the error of their ways. They overcompensated for the years of neglect by going crazy in the design language. They haven’t done anything with power trains, though, and it’s apparent.

I’m just wondering if it’s too late. Their design language, IMO, is good intentions gone bad. They didn’t need to go wild had they not stood still for as long as they did. And, their engine prowess has yet to be proven again.

 

[Levi]

Others innovated, took risks, moved forward, Toyota didn’t.

Innovated what? Camless engines are for sale? Sorry, but there has been no innovation at all, only tech no body asked for and horsepower wars for people that can't pilot.

Risks? That all cars look the same? Maybe the "coupe" CUVs and "whale" sedans, but that is it.

If there is one company that innovated and took risks, it is Tesla.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

New Corolla Wagon and Sedan based on Hatch are coming.

Wagon: https://icdn-1.motor1.com/images/mgl/3x9k1/s1/2019-toyota-auris-wagon-spy-photo.jpg
Sedan: https://icdn-7.motor1.com/images/mgl/ORomo/s1/2020-toyota-corolla-spy-photo.jpg

That's good. Better late than never. US most likely won't get a wagon version (without a lift kit), sadly.

horsepower wars for people that can't pilot.

To be clear on my part, I'm not really a speed demon, but I would like it if my next economy car was closer to 8s 0-60mph than 10s. The CVTs are too slow. From what I've seen of the 6MT Corollas, they have to disable traction control and bark out 1st gear to get them under 9s. I don't like stressing my clutch and driveline that much so, those results are meaningless for daily driving.

 

[peterharvey]

I think part of Toyota’s problem is that they just got complacent. There was no sense of urgency in anything they did over the past almost two decades it seems. It’s hurting them now in my opinion.

They were like GM of old: fat, content and happy. Making appliances.

Others innovated, took risks, moved forward, Toyota didn’t.

Only recently did they realize the error of their ways. They overcompensated for the years of neglect by going crazy in the design language. They haven’t done anything with power trains, though, and it’s apparent.

I’m just wondering if it’s too late. Their design language, IMO, is good intentions gone bad. They didn’t need to go wild had they not stood still for as long as they did. And, their engine prowess has yet to be proven again.

Toyota Motor Corporation is the wealthiest auto manufacturer in the world with net equity and some US$171 billion.
By comparison, Daimler AG has only some US$81 billion, with BMW AG just some $61 billion.

TMC is heavily focused on money, money, money, hence this may be the reason why TMC has fallen behind in small capacity turbos, and even plug-in hybrids PHEV's as some have said.
It may be this same focus on net wealth that leads to the axing of the 5GS RWD-based sedan, at a time when the Germans have both regular sedans in the E Class/5 Series/A6, versus the 4 Door Gran Coupes in the CLS/6 Series/A7's.
Likewise, the German SUV tall wagens come in two body styles too, like the regular GLC/X3 & GLE/X5 versus the 4 Door Coupe SUV's like the GLC Coupe/X4 & GLE Coupe/X6.

Where Toyota Motor Corporation has a small range with fewer choices to maximize profits, the Germans have a wider range of choices for a superior reputation - albeit at a cost to their net wealth obviously.

By being late to the party with small capacity turbos, and axing the rear wheel drive based GS, TMC is damaging its reputation in performance and chassis dynamics.

However, it is very hard to say.
Perhaps with electrification just around the corner, TMC realizes that there is presently too many different powertrain and bodystyle choices?
Hence they have reduced the number of powertrains and body styles?

If you were TMC, right now, would you want to pour much money into developing "electric" turbos used in F1 which can accelerate the turbo to 70,000 rpm in just 2 milliseconds to virtually eliminate lag?
Right now, I don't think any auto manufacturer wants to pour much more money into ICE.
Right now, they'd be pouring money into EV's...

 

[peterharvey]

Fair enough, but my thought on this occurred a few years back, when I drove that Yaris and realized that Corollas had been stuck at ~130hp for over a decade, yet were growing heavier every year. The M20 should be a solid update.

Edit: And since they won't sell me a Yaris GRMN, at least sell me one with the M20 and a stick. I like little whippable cars around town.

I test drove a Mitsubish Outlander Sport 2.0 and a Honda HR-V 1.8 SUV tall wagens last week, and both had decent power and torque, but absolutely pathetic NVH.

The Mitsubishi was okay cruising, but wide throttle openings meants loud and crass NVH.
The HR-V was a bit louder than Mitsubishi at idle, though slightly smoother & quieter than the Mitsubishi under acceleration, but still very loud & crass NVH.
Ditto the current outgoing Corolla 1.8's - idle, power/torque & cruising is satisfactory, but at wide throttle, the NVH is poor.
The 2016 Civic 1.5 Turbo has a rough idle, with coarsish NVH at small throttle openings, though better than the Corolla 1.8.

I suspect ALL manufacturers do this to deliberately push customers to purchase further up the range like Camries to get decent NVH.

By comparison, my Mazda 929 2.0 4 cylinder carby from over 30 years ago idled and accelerated very smoothly and very quietly with seemingly deliberately superior engine mounts & much more insulation; it was only rough & buzzy past 4000 rpm.
25 years ago, a Camry 2.2 with balance shafts was silky smooth around town, and it only became strained at hi rpm.
Today, a Camry 2.5 is also reasonably refined.
The current model Mercedes C300 2.0 Turbo is probably the smoothest & quietest idling & revving 2.0 turbo around.
A French Lexus GS300h 2.5 Hybrid is so quiet & smooth revving too.
I can't remember which is smoother revving - the C300 or an overseas GS300h.

My wife's Lexus' 2.0 Turbo idles perfectly smoothly & almost inaudibly, and full throttles just about as as well as Benz' 2.0T.
However around town, the GS300t 2.0T does NOT rev as smoothly as either C300, nor overseas GS300h; I suspect that the low rpm throbbiness has something to do with the Atkinson Cycle at work, as opposed to using the conventional Otto Cycle.

I hope the new Corolla 2.0 genuinely ups the NVH...

 

[Levi]

That is the big "scandal" in the auto industry. NVH is hidden under badge and tech toys nobody asked. If there was cheap car with the right NVH, premium cars would probably not sell anymore, or they would have to find new ways.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

They were like GM of old: fat, content and happy. Making appliances.

GM *never* made appliances. Detroit unreliability is why Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subaru took over the market in the 80s. Even in the 90s and 00s designed-in failure in the Northstar V8 is what cemented Cadillac's status as the Standard of Nothing.

Others innovated, took risks, moved forward, Toyota didn’t.

What innovation? Innovation in cheating EPA tests? Innovation in making a billion CUVs that all look kind of like a '97 Grand Cherokee and a Honda Odyssey mated? High horsepower isn't innovation. Going fast isn't innovation. Tesla handily beats every ICE that will ever be made using what is basically 120-year-old technology.

 

[ssun30]

However, it is very hard to say.
Perhaps with electrification just around the corner, TMC realizes that there is presently too many different powertrain and bodystyle choices?
Hence they have reduced the number of powertrains and body styles?

That's exactly what they are doing and what the whole industry is moving to in the next decade. The future of automobile is very boring and very efficient. Every technology, when sufficiently sophisticated, will be brutally efficient and boring at the same time. Variety is the result of inefficiency.

If you were TMC, right now, would you want to pour much money into developing "electric" turbos used in F1 which can accelerate the turbo to 70,000 rpm in just 2 milliseconds to virtually eliminate lag?
Right now, I don't think any auto manufacturer wants to pour much more money into ICE.
Right now, they'd be pouring money into EV's...

Electric turbos are a technological dead end. They are a lot of engineering and cost for very little gains, and they will never be reliable enough for mass market applications due to the need for a extremely fast rotating rotor. The extra cost will always be better spent on actual hybrid components. The general industry consensus is that they will see use on supercars and high-end luxury cars for about a decade and then disappear. F1 engines are very efficient and powerful because they are essentially turbocompound engines, which is a 1950s technology and was a technological dead end back then as well. Toyota will not seriously invest in the technology and focus on full electric instead.

 

[carguy420]

Camless engines please! :yum

 

[carguy420]

That's exactly what they are doing and what the whole industry is moving to in the next decade. The future of automobile is very boring and very efficient. Every technology, when sufficiently sophisticated, will be brutally efficient and boring at the same time. Variety is the result of inefficiency.



Electric turbos are a technological dead end. They are a lot of engineering and cost for very little gains, and they will never be reliable enough for mass market applications due to the need for a extremely fast rotating rotor. The extra cost will always be better spent on actual hybrid components. The general industry consensus is that they will see use on supercars and high-end luxury cars for about a decade and then disappear. F1 engines are very efficient and powerful because they are essentially turbocompound engines, which is a 1950s technology and was a technological dead end back then as well. Toyota will not seriously invest in the technology and focus on full electric instead.

So what's the future for Toyota? Downsized turbo engines or no replacement for displacement?

 

[peterharvey]

So what's the future for Toyota? Downsized turbo engines or no replacement for displacement?

I heard that it will be gasoline-electric hybrids, combined with EV's for urban/metropolitan driving, with hydrogen fuel cell powered electric vehicles HFCEV's for long distance esp commercial vehicles.

As to whether the gasoline-electric hybrids will be no replacement for displacement, or small capacity turbos - I don't know.
Some say that no replacement for displacement gasoline-electric hybrids are more efficient.
Yet I also hear of small capacity turbo gasoline-electric hybrids coming.

However, all traditional ICE's will have a limit compared to EV's and HFCEV's...