Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[CRSKTN]

Even PHEVs come to mind.

So I don't understand. Are you saying their PHEVs from Toyota have said they don't have plans for battery recycling/refurbishing, and confirmed the same for BEVs?

 

[internalaudit]

So I don't understand. Are you saying their PHEVs from Toyota have said they don't have plans for battery recycling/refurbishing, and confirmed the same for BEVs?

Read my updated post. I don't understand you either lol

 

[CRSKTN]

Read my updated post. I don't understand you either lol

Well you're claiming that you have knowledge that Porsche, and Toyota/Lexus customers will be out of luck as these companies have no end of life plans for battery packs.

I am trying to figure out what makes you think that.

 

[internalaudit]

Well you're claiming that you have knowledge that Porsche, and Toyota/Lexus customers will be out of luck as these companies have no end of life plans for battery packs.

I am trying to figure out what makes you think that.

I never claimed that. If you can quote where I said that, we can discuss.

You are putting words into someone's mouth and that's stupid and malicious.

I said without offering some sort of post-warranty battery refurbishment services, astute buyers who keep their cars for a long period of time with be loathe to adopting BEVs, especially ones with Li-ion batteries. I have an almost 11 y.o. Accord coupe and a 10 y.o. CT200h whose battery I can purchase for $2,000 USD in the States.

Why would I pay a huge premium upfront, save on gasoline during the life of the vehicle, and receive scrap value for the car if there is no battery refurbishment support? Where do you suppose resale value stems from, I would think it would come from the prospective buyer's perceived usefulness of the vehicle or whatever item he is purchasing? A BEV with a dead battery that requires tens of thousands of dollars to replace don't sound so enticing to purchase.

Only people like you wouldn't reconsider such a costly outlay but maybe your backyard has that proverbial money tree, which I don't.

 

[CRSKTN]

I never claimed that. If you can quote where I said that, we can discuss.

You are putting words into someone's mouth and that's stupid and malicious.

I said without offering some sort of post-warranty battery refurbishment services, astute buyers who keep their cars for a long period of time with be loathe to adopting BEVs, especially ones with Li-ion batteries. I have an almost 11 y.o. Accord coupe and a 10 y.o. CT200h whose battery I can purchase for $2,000 USD in the States.

Why would I pay a huge premium upfront, save on gasoline during the life of the vehicle, and receive scrap value for the car if there is no battery refurbishment support? Where do you suppose resale value stems from, I would think it would come from the prospective buyer's perceived usefulness of the vehicle or whatever item he is purchasing? A BEV with a dead battery that requires tens of thousands of dollars to replace don't sound so enticing to purchase.

Only people like you wouldn't reconsider such a costly outlay but maybe your backyard has that proverbial money tree, which I don't.

Uhhhhh

Most will throw their Porsche away for parts /scrap value and get another one, hopefully better than Li-ion.

Even Toyota doesn't provide any after warranty battery refurbishment support so caveat emptor for BEV buyers who hold on to their cars for a long time, like me.

 

[internalaudit]

Uhhhhh

Uhhh, that's not even what you implied I said.

If a car cannot run or cannot be put into running condition at reasonable cost, won't the owner scrap it?

Why do you think a lot of cars are in the scrap/junk yard besides accidents? Cars that are sold for scrap eventually end up there too, don't they?

 

[CRSKTN]

You said this:

Most will throw their Porsche away for parts /scrap value and get another one, hopefully better than Li-ion.

Even Toyota doesn't provide any after warranty battery refurbishment support so caveat emptor for BEV buyers who hold on to their cars for a long time, like me.

I said this:

Well you're claiming that you have knowledge that Porsche, and Toyota/Lexus customers will be out of luck as these companies have no end of life plans for battery packs.

I am trying to figure out what makes you think that.

You said:

I never claimed that. If you can quote where I said that, we can discuss.

You are putting words into someone's mouth and that's stupid and malicious.

All I did was quote you again.

You said this:

Uhhh, that's not even what you implied I said.

I haven't said anything else 😕

To be clear: none of us know what tmc has planned for end of life of batteries.

 

[spwolf]

Just like with car engines - after 10 years old, you are not buying replacement engine, you are fixing your old one. With EVs, you can fix your battery, many independent shops do this and are able to fix many different types of batteries.

Even here in eastern europe, there are specialized shops for Teslas and Toyotas that are outside warranty.

 

[Will1991]

I believe Toyota don't allow to replace "just a cell module" and fix your battery pack, they always replace the whole pack for a new one (This is true for Portugal, don't know if this policy changes for other countries).
There're some third party shops able to do it at a lower cost and some will be easier to do than others... For example, a TM3 battery pack isn't build by modules like in the S/X, so it will be considerable harder and more expensive to do... Nor sure if is even possible to fix it due to the way it's built...

Availability and cost for a post-warranty replacement should be a concern for any potential buyer, Nissan had a couple of horror stories about this ( https://insideevs.com/news/451309/nissan-leaf-owner-difficult-battery-replacement/ ).

At this moment, I have no idea about how much a UX300e/Taycan battery costs to replace, but 200USD/kWh shouldn't be far off...

As for end of life, TMC already gets back more than 90% of all battery packs and is looking to achieve 100%, while recycling up to 95% of each one.

 

[maiaramdan]

Honestly this conversation made me travel to how the automakers will scrap the used batteries, we are really coming short of nature crisis, from the ocean scrap island to the excessive use of lithium , something need to be fixed if humankind want to stay even just another millennium!

 

[CRSKTN]

I can't say much but I will say second life for EV batteries in stationary storage applications and the like are already focus points for a lot of capital and smart people.

 

[mikeavelli]

Some of you are confusing rear steer with the direct 4 system.

Direct 4 will be revolutionary and with battery tech improving there is the possibility for hybrids without giant battery packs in the trunk or under the car. That would be attached to each wheel. Less weight compared to batteries today. This patent is to provide power to the wheels, not steering. This enables, besides other things, torque vectoring with instant power modulation without any delay or adaptation time from the differential.

Although, if Lexus manages to apply RWS on a RWD car, I don’t see any technical issue to make it impossible to do.

Rear steer is just adding 2-3 degrees of the rear wheels turning which helps in parking and cornering but doesn’t add power.

Porsche hybrid systems do have a power plus where I think they get like 10-20 seconds of hybrid super boost. That is also different to Direct 4.

 

[ssun30]

Honestly this conversation made me travel to how the automakers will scrap the used batteries, we are really coming short of nature crisis, from the ocean scrap island to the excessive use of lithium , something need to be fixed if humankind want to stay even just another millennium!

The answer is: nobody knows yet!

All short-term plans are battery reuse for energy storage. These applications have much lower C-rate (~0.1C) so they could get a lot more cycles out of them. However, all batteries degrade naturally and become unusable after 15 years. So reusing pushes back the problem by 5 years or so.

Right now there is just no viable (safe, clean, cheap) recycling process at massive scale. In China most of the recycling are done by waste pickers who are under serious safety and health hazards.

I hope it doesn't become the plastic recycling scam repeated again. However I am optimistic since batteries are larger, have more regular shapes and need little sorting, so automation could be possible.

Actually we know very little about what an EV-dominated world looks like because politicians make those decisions don't understand the full picture. The supply chain, the charging infrastructure, the power generation capacity, waste disposal, lifetime carbon footprint. These are all topics that need more research and debate. Unfortunately most estimates tend to be very optimistic due to the economic motives. The academia is more self-critical but the industry and governments are much more biased.

 

[spwolf]

I believe Toyota don't allow to replace "just a cell module" and fix your battery pack, they always replace the whole pack for a new one (This is true for Portugal, don't know if this policy changes for other countries).

Toyota also does not allow to "rebuild" turbo, alternators, fuel pumps, injectors, DPF, etc, etc.... yet huge percentage of buyers do not replace these in their cars with new parts but go to specialized repair shops.

Here in my part of eastern europe, there have been specialized shops to repair hybrid battery packs for years, and it costs fraction of what it costs to order a new one.

 

[Levi]

I can't say much but I will say second life for EV batteries in stationary storage applications and the like are already focus points for a lot of capital and smart people.

This issue is that this second life is also the last life (from what I got to know) and it is will end some time. What is going to be done with them? Batteries in cars will degrade faster, just but storage batteries degrade too. I inquired for solar panels, and the batteries are given 15 years usability, from then on they degrade to the point of needing new ones.

 

[spwolf]

This issue is that this second life is also the last life (from what I got to know) and it is will end some time. What is going to be done with them? Batteries in cars will degrade faster, just but storage batteries degrade too. I inquired for solar panels, and the batteries are given 15 years usability, from then on they degrade to the point of needing new ones.

Toyota buys it back (over 90% in Europe are bought back) and they recycle a lot of it and improve as well every year.

What parts of the hybrid HV battery are recycled? The hybrid HV battery metal cover and associated metal parts and plastic components are recycled locally. The hybrid HV battery cells are exported in EPA approved sealed containers for recovery of base metals. The printed circuit boards are exported for recovery of copper, lead, gold and silver.



What is the diversion rate from landfill for hybrid HV batteries?
The diversion rate from landfill is in excess of 98%, with all toxic elements diverted from landfill for hybrid HV batteries.

so it is a problem that already has solution, they already sold millions upon millions of hybrid battery vehicles.

 

[Levi]

Toyota buys it back (over 90% in Europe are bought back) and they recycle a lot of it and improve as well every year.

Toyota does that. It there a law that requires Toyota to do that or does Toyota do it by its own will?

Governments are pushing BEVs, but are they preparing any environmental framework for mass battery disposal? If companies do not want to do anything until they are not required to, they won't, till scandal breaks out. See plastic (not solved yet), diesel, not to name all the other things in various industries.

 

[spwolf]

Toyota does that. It there a law that requires Toyota to do that or does Toyota do it by its own will?

Governments are pushing BEVs, but are they preparing any environmental framework for mass battery disposal? If companies do not want to do anything until they are not required to, they won't, till scandal breaks out. See plastic (not solved yet), diesel, not to name all the other things in various industries.

there are both laws and all manufacturers do it because they make money on it.

it is really a very much solved problem thanks to Toyota, now Tesla and few others sellings total over 20m+ batteries across the globe, which means they are being recycled everywhere.

 

[ssun30]

there are both laws and all manufacturers do it because they make money on it.

it is really a very much solved problem thanks to Toyota, now Tesla and few others sellings total over 20m+ batteries across the globe, which means they are being recycled everywhere.

NiMH recycling is much more established than Li-ion recycling. The process is safer and less energy intensive, and Toyota uses a common cell design across the fleet. So recycling for them is only slightly cost-negative (and cost-neutral when combined with reuse).

Problem with Li-ion is that it's very cost-negative. No Li-ion recycler could make a profit, at least not safely and responsibly. It also doesn't help there are dozens of chemistry and cell/pack designs, so a different process is required to recycle each brand of EV. Also there are 10x as many batteries in one Tesla than in one Prius. The scale is completely different.

The hybrid HV battery cells are exported in EPA approved sealed containers for recovery of base metals. The printed circuit boards are exported for recovery of copper, lead, gold and silver.

This doesn't sound right to me as they don't explain what happens to the "exported" cells and PCBs: Where are they exported? To whom? How are the materials recovered? Majority of the world's metal recycling are done in third world countries by waste pickers without safety and environmental oversight. The devil is in the details.

I wouldn't say Toyota solved the recycling problem. They just did their part. But the whole recycling chain is far from complete.

 

[maiaramdan]

Agree with both @Levi and partly @ssun30
Li will be a major future catastrophic problem that every major manufacturer and every political party trying not to see it or hide it