Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Another question is why are we getting cars like the Corvette ZO6 and Escalade V, new Mustang etc. when everyone is talking about EVs

Because perhaps not everyone does want EVs and the notion that everyone wants EVs is a lie generated by special interest groups.

 

[Masaki_11]

Because perhaps not everyone does want EVs and the notion that everyone wants EVs is a lie generated by special interest groups.

True, especially when it comes to performance vehicles. As fast as Teslas, and some other EVs are, and whatnot, they aren't really that exciting. The argument can be made for day-to-day EVs, but yeah I personally don't really buy into the hype. What I foresee is manufacturers offering more EV options in their vehicle lineups as time goes by, including Toyota and Lexus. However, I think ICEs and hybrid powertrains will be the bread-and-butter of sales for the near future.

Also, as someone who has lived in both Japan and South Africa, I can't really see EVs taking over anytime soon in both countries--a key factor being the principle fee customers need to spend to go EV, even for a tiny one. In Japan, nowadays, hybrids are really common, though. Maybe EVs will become more popular in cities like Kyoto, Tokyo, and maybe Osaka. And, of course, in the developing world, the EV infrastructure is definitely nowhere near where it has to be, and people will definitely not be willing to spend extra for an EV. Climate change is the last thing on some peoples' minds😂

I don't know about Europe though; that's where most of the climate change and carbon neutrality big-wigs say their piece for the world to hear. Maybe there will be a legislative push that coerces people into buying EVs exclusively, which may happen.

 

[bogglo]

True, especially when it comes to performance vehicles. As fast as Teslas, and some other EVs are, and whatnot, they aren't really that exciting. The argument can be made for day-to-day EVs, but yeah I personally don't really buy into the hype. What I foresee is manufacturers offering more EV options in their vehicle lineups as time goes by, including Toyota and Lexus. However, I think ICEs and hybrid powertrains will be the bread-and-butter of sales for the near future.

Also, as someone who has lived in both Japan and South Africa, I can't really see EVs taking over anytime soon in both countries--a key factor being the principle fee customers need to spend to go EV, even for a tiny one. In Japan, nowadays, hybrids are really common, though. Maybe EVs will become more popular in cities like Kyoto, Tokyo, and maybe Osaka. And, of course, in the developing world, the EV infrastructure is definitely nowhere near where it has to be, and people will definitely not be willing to spend extra for an EV. Climate change is the last thing on some peoples' minds😂

I don't know about Europe though; that's where most of the climate change and carbon neutrality big-wigs say their piece for the world to hear. Maybe there will be a legislative push that coerces people into buying EVs exclusively, which may happen.

I agree Africa is not moving to electric vehicles anytime soon it saddens me to say it but the government out there still has a very long way to go as far as dealing with anything relating to climate change. Also has someone who has lived in Japan and knowing that they keep their not into the leasing new cars and changing cars every year like we do in the US it's going to take a while to go full electric.

 

[CRSKTN]

There is lots of progress towards extremely affordable micro transport solutions offering EV in developing markets

I wouldn't count them out if the numbers make sense, as I have seen elsewhere

 

[NXracer]

I don't see the IS getting discontinued. The RX FSP and 450H+ are very significant cars showing what to expect from Lexus with respect to performance and daily driven cars.

The cool thing right now is TMC have all the engines, hybrid system and technology to compete with any car manufacturer the question is how they plan to do it.

Some of the post above have post legitimate reasons why its going to take a while before Lexus goes full EV
1. Take for instance if the ES goes full EV will it still be affordable to the regular ES buyers (LS makes more sense to go full EV first)
2. Reason people are probably not trippin too bad right now with PHEV is because they really don't need to charge it like the example mentioned about Prime owners.
3. Lastly is the logistics of going full EV as mentioned above supply chain crisis likely.

One smart thing though that TMC is doing in my opinion is Launching Crown globally. I feel like crown is needed to make it easy for Lexus to go full EV without loosing it's customer who are not ready to go full EV yet. So, the success of crown as a global vehicle will also play a role in Lexus ambition of going full EV.


Another question is why are we getting cars like the Corvette ZO6 and Escalade V, new Mustang etc. when everyone is talking about EVs

I believe the answer to the question at the end, is because fear of change causes mass panic buying trends.

If you analyze the platforms that Toyota sells/sold V8s in in the past couple of years, the last model cycle of that generation that offered a v8, had a huge sales boost, excessive public forum talk about if you want the best of this nameplate, the last MY was the one to get, and generally average transaction prices inching higher then normal.

The idea of performance, reliability (at least for TMC), and generally fun has been typically a V8 and above, and with the sea of marketing, official company lines indicating that things are winding down for big motors, politicians signaling that big motors are going to be dumped, for either smaller powertrains or even full on EVs now its the time to get your tulip before supply runs out.

 

[ssun30]

Some interesting info on difference between "FKS" and "FXS" engines other than compression ratio:

1) Intake manifold is redesigned to make space for HV components.

2) FXS engines have considerably higher tumble ratio than FKS engines (~3 vs. ~2).

3) FXS engines have no drive belt system. Water pumps, oil pumps, AC compressors are all electric.

4) FXS engines require twice the spark plug energy (80 mJ vs 40 mJ) due to high tumble ratio.

BTW "Dynamic Force Next-gen" engines with 45-46% thermal efficiency already finished development in 2015. But it was deemed not economically feasible at that time and focus was put into other HV components instead.

P.S. The guy involved in the development of next-gen THS (and has left the company) complained "THS is at risk of losing leader status because the old heads are so stingy". Almost all THS products could gain >15% better acceleration and ~5% highway fuel efficiency today for a very modest cost gain (hint: it's why the Prius Prime has same performance and fuel economy as the regular Prius despite being 160kg heavier).

 

[Will1991]

I understand why TMC choose not to build it for the 4G Prius since it was good enough to beat the competition, but now with so many production headaches for BEV production it would be the perfect timing to improve even more the HSD's fuel consumption...

4th-gen TMC hybrids are well built and fuel efficient (the ES300h and NX450h+ are amazing examples), but given the times, I was expecting some kind of revolution for the 5th-gen systems but it's more like an evolution.

P.S. The guy involved in the development of next-gen THS (and has left the company) complained "THS is at risk of losing leader status because the old heads are so stingy". Almost all THS products could gain >15% better acceleration and ~5% highway fuel efficiency today for a very modest cost gain (hint: it's why the Prius Prime has same performance and fuel economy as the regular Prius despite being 160kg heavier).

We're seeing this with the 5th-gen hybrids, the 1.8L HSD improved 0-60 by 1.7 seconds with little more than a new HV battery and a new electric motor...

Toyota announces the new 2023 Corolla

Toyota strengthens style, technology, performance and driving appeal across the Corolla range for 2023Refreshed design with new exterior features and colours and harmonised new interior trims, upholsteries and finishesNew fifth generation Toyota hybrid electric technology, delivering more power...

newsroom.toyota.eu

But are you referring to the 1-way clutch?

PS: It remains a extremely strange and awkward decision to keep the UX (the premium product on GA-C) with the 4th-gen system and the lower cost product jumped into the 5th-gen... IMO, it should've been a Lexus first, even if it was for only a couple of months.
The way I see it, the Luxury arm should be in front of the "normal" brand....

 

[bogglo]

 

[ssun30]

But are you referring to the 1-way clutch?

PS: It remains a extremely strange and awkward decision to keep the UX (the premium product on GA-C) with the 4th-gen system and the lower cost product jumped into the 5th-gen... IMO, it should've been a Lexus first, even if it was for only a couple of months.
The way I see it, the Luxury arm should be in front of the "normal" brand....

Yes, the 1-way clutch alone allows much faster acceleration and improved efficiency. Don't know why it's not implemented on other HSD systems. The achievement ratio could reach 0.58-0.62 depending on the set up (Prius PHV is at 0.61), while current THS are mostly at 0.52-0.56. That's at least 10% faster acceleration and/or lower fuel consumption.

The Honda i-MMD style serial-parallel hybrid systems are making a comeback as they are easier to implement and scale up. Honestly Toyota should have at least considered it for their high output transverse platform instead of that awkward P2 setup on the RX500h.

But yeah I agree TMC keeps their cards close to their chest, the 4th-gen THS is already better than other solution on the market so there wasn't need for higher cost.

 

[Will1991]

TMC needed a intermediate step, to improve the HV battery on regular hybrids, to make it work... Those 4th gen traction batteries didn't had enough power to make it work properly.

Then we've marketability... The 1-way clutch would make wonders on FWD's, but with the 5th gen it seems that TMC is going to offer more AWD hybrids which are easier to sell for more money.

I think TMC is going with 3 option for the 5th gen HSD's:
-> FWD version, for those looking for cheaper thrills (cheaper to buy and to drive)
-> AWD version, for those looking for more power and torque.
-> P2 hybrid with a "geared" gearbox for those more less willing to go with a electrified powertrain

Being AWD should make it easier for TMC to ask for more money than a equivalent system in FWD (if it had the 1-way clutch).

 

[internalaudit]

As I've already decided on a second production year Macan EV for our next vehicle to replace the '16 RAV4 Hybrid I sold two months ago, the only BEV I will likely consider from Lexus would be an IS (or slightly smaller) sporty enough BEV, definitely with torque vectoring.

I think many manufacturers know TVD on BEVs could be distinguishing features. Even the upcoming Polestar 3 will come with TVD. 4WS if a cheap option, I'll also consider but that's not a purchase requirement for me.

I think with BEVs, Lexus products will shine, well after the RZ, which seems to be gimped in terms of specs and performance.

 

[dylanfoos]

 

[spwolf]

As I've already decided on a second production year Macan EV for our next vehicle to replace the '16 RAV4 Hybrid I sold two months ago, the only BEV I will likely consider from Lexus would be an IS (or slightly smaller) sporty enough BEV, definitely with torque vectoring.

I think many manufacturers know TVD on BEVs could be distinguishing features. Even the upcoming Polestar 3 will come with TVD. 4WS if a cheap option, I'll also consider but that's not a purchase requirement for me.

I think with BEVs, Lexus products will shine, well after the RZ, which seems to be gimped in terms of specs and performance.

by the time Macan EV comes out in 2025, you will have plenty of other choices. Not sure how can you even decide on vehicle that is not out for next 2+ years or so.

 

[Levi]

by the time Macan EV comes out in 2025, you will have plenty of other choices. Not sure how can you even decide on vehicle that is not out for next 2+ years or so.

Like what? It is already 5 years I hear "by the time there will be plenty of other choices". Still waiting, or maybe most "other choices" are simply bad choices? Any prediction/examples for "other choices"?

 

[internalaudit]

Like what? It is already 5 years I hear "by the time there will be plenty of other choices". Still waiting, or maybe most "other choices" are simply bad choices? Any prediction/examples for "other choices"?

Macan EV, Polestar 3, these come with torque vectoring and better build quaility. I don't think there will be plenty of choices of luxury crossovers at the $80-90K Canadian dollar range though. First Polestar build will be $110K at todays USDCAD exchange rate. I think the base Macan EV will be priced well, maybe starting below a Model Y. Of course customers will be nickel and dimed haha.

by the time Macan EV comes out in 2025, you will have plenty of other choices. Not sure how can you even decide on vehicle that is not out for next 2+ years or so.

Nope, I don't think I will want to buy a BMW or Mercedes, even for $10-15K less money. They don't cater to enthusiasts who offer torque vectoring differential for a pittance.

 

[JustADude]

As I've already decided on a second production year Macan EV for our next vehicle to replace the '16 RAV4 Hybrid I sold two months ago, the only BEV I will likely consider from Lexus would be an IS (or slightly smaller) sporty enough BEV, definitely with torque vectoring.

Yea that's the rumors out of Japan. The next IS will have torque vectoring with each rear wheel getting a small e-motor. Also, the mini ev-cruiser they showed off in December, I think we can see the same thing with each rear wheel have their own e-motor like the IS to have torque vectoring for 4WD like driving

 

[ssun30]

Yea that's the rumors out of Japan. The next IS will have torque vectoring with each rear wheel getting a small e-motor. Also, the mini ev-cruiser they showed off in December, I think we can see the same thing with each rear wheel have their own e-motor like the IS to have torque vectoring for 4WD like driving

Macan EV, Polestar 3, these come with torque vectoring and better build quaility. I don't think there will be plenty of choices of luxury crossovers at the $80-90K Canadian dollar range though. First Polestar build will be $110K at todays USDCAD exchange rate. I think the base Macan EV will be priced well, maybe starting below a Model Y. Of course customers will be nickel and dimed haha.

Nope, I don't think I will want to buy a BMW or Mercedes, even for $10-15K less money. They don't cater to enthusiasts who offer torque vectoring differential for a pittance.

What? BMW was actually the first car maker to adopt the GKN 2-speed torque-vectoring eAxle on a production car (i8) and the i4 M will have a further developed GKN eAxle. There will be no torque-vectoring eAxle in any Lexus until at least 2030. For that you will have to wait for their in-wheel motors.

In fact, given that they can't even get the basics right, I would say not having torque-vectoring is the least of their problems by 2025.

 

[internalaudit]

What? BMW was actually the first car maker to adopt the GKN 2-speed torque-vectoring eAxle on a production car (i8) and the i4 M will have a further developed GKN eAxle. There will be no torque-vectoring eAxle in any Lexus until at least 2030. For that you will have to wait for at least 2030 when their in-wheel motors are ready.

In fact, given that they can't even get the basics right, I would say not having torque-vectoring is the least of their problems by 2025.

The current i4 M50 doesn't have torque vectoring, nor does it's iX3 or iX1. My wife wants a crossover BEV.

I sure can't and don't want to afford an i8 and I sure wouldn't bother with a two-seater.

I don't need tri-motors. Dual clutch TVD is fine. I don't drive like a maniac/idiot. Just want better handling, nimbler and some stability in inclement weather, that's all. That's why the Macan EV!

I don't mind Lexus coming up with a BEV with TVD and solid state battery in 2030. I could switch to Honda/Acura for that. I'm not Richie Rich and I don't want to be buying a Macan in 2025 and another BEV in 2027, especially with ole ye faithful CT200h and Accord are chugging along fine.

 

[internalaudit]

Yea that's the rumors out of Japan. The next IS will have torque vectoring with each rear wheel getting a small e-motor. Also, the mini ev-cruiser they showed off in December, I think we can see the same thing with each rear wheel have their own e-motor like the IS to have torque vectoring for 4WD like driving

I don't mind waiting for even dual-clutch TVD. Don't need fancy in-wheel motors as those add to unsprung weight (and the price) I believe and slow down less powerful cars.

We will see what Lexus offers. I'm patient haha.

 

[spwolf]

Like what? It is already 5 years I hear "by the time there will be plenty of other choices". Still waiting, or maybe most "other choices" are simply bad choices? Any prediction/examples for "other choices"?

I mean Macan just got delayed, it is not a choice yet either.