Official 8th Generation (2018+) 010B Camry Discussion

[maiaramdan]

Today and yesterday I got the opportunity to drive 2004 S class
Honestly I missed very much when cars were once just about driving, not a multi media electric and electronic thing

The idea that I can't have a regular RWD Lexus model after 2025 still terrifying me

Honestly I tried the hybrid only with 3 GS450h and don't want it once and for all, and that's why I bought the GS-F just when I get the chance, I am now feeling that I need to be ready to buy some old and current models because I am afraid of the electrified future

 

[spwolf]

Today and yesterday I got the opportunity to drive 2004 S class
Honestly I missed very much when cars were once just about driving, not a multi media electric and electronic thing

The idea that I can't have a regular RWD Lexus model after 2025 still terrifying me

Honestly I tried the hybrid only with 3 GS450h and don't want it once and for all, and that's why I bought the GS-F just when I get the chance, I am now feeling that I need to be ready to buy some old and current models because I am afraid of the electrified future

As I tried to explain, you will be able to get regular petrol engine in 2025 for sure. It will just have stronger start stop system, it wont be a true hybrid.
At least you in Russia and our friends here from USA... me in EU, I am not able to buy real petrol Lexus anyway, and I would not want to due to the high taxes and very low resale value (as well as cost of gas).

 

[maiaramdan]

Yeah agree with you in this regards, Europe got ICE phobia!

 

[ssun30]

Today I had my first experience in a gen 8 Camry (ride-hailing). Absolutely surprised by the smoothness of the A25. It is a night and day difference compared to the 2AR in the XV60. In fact I would say it is smoother than the 8AR in the IS300. Prior to this the smoothest Inline-4 I've experienced was the GM LTG, at least on Cadillacs. It is only under hard acceleration did I feel it is louder and less refined than the older generation V6.

 

[maiaramdan]

Amazed to hear that, the last Camry I tried is the rented 2012 Camry when I was going to the airport from USA to Russia

 

[spwolf]

Today I had my first experience in a gen 8 Camry (ride-hailing). Absolutely surprised by the smoothness of the A25. It is a night and day difference compared to the 2AR in the XV60. In fact I would say it is smoother than the 8AR in the IS300. Prior to this the smoothest Inline-4 I've experienced was the GM LTG, at least on Cadillacs. It is only under hard acceleration did I feel it is louder and less refined than the older generation V6.

good to hear... did you try new hybrid already?

 

[CIF]

Another sound month for the Camry in China with 15,475 sold. Meanwhile the Accord is starting to recover with recent launch of the Accord Hybrid at 12,445 units. I suppose over time Accord will resume parity with the Camry which is expected, but remember just a year ago it outsells the Camry 2-to-1.

BTW The FAW Corolla is now officially the best selling car in China. It took them only four years to do so. There is some magic about the Corolla that just works. I mean, unlike the Camry, which is superior in every quality imaginable compared to the competition, the Corolla is just a okay product with okay pricing. But I guess all best-sellers share the same quality: just being average and having no flaws.

The key magic is high QDR and cheap cost to own, with all other metrics being fairly decent (fuel economy, power, ergonomics, comfort). That leads to piece of mind which is priceless for some people.

What the mainstream automotive press (at least here in North America and Western Europe) will NEVER tell you is that virtually all Hondas actually have a moderate cost to own. Hondas are not that cheap to own. I know this as a former Honda owner myself. This is backed up by some industry studies as well. There was one done a while back in North America that showed on an annual basis, the average Toyota cost significantly less to own (maintenance, repairs) over a several year span than compared to Honda and other brands as well. Lots of private mechanics over the years have told me as well what I already knew, that Hondas are more expensive to maintain and own than Toyotas. Tied to that, Hondas overall have lower levels of QDR.

There is a reason that in regions with the world's roughest road conditions (including many third world countries), Hondas are virtually non-existent yet Toyotas are very popular.

Today I had my first experience in a gen 8 Camry (ride-hailing). Absolutely surprised by the smoothness of the A25. It is a night and day difference compared to the 2AR in the XV60. In fact I would say it is smoother than the 8AR in the IS300. Prior to this the smoothest Inline-4 I've experienced was the GM LTG, at least on Cadillacs. It is only under hard acceleration did I feel it is louder and less refined than the older generation V6.

Can you comment in detail on the ride quality vs the XV60?

 

[spwolf]

@CIF While i agree that Honda's are more expensive to maintain than Toyota's, I dont think they are less reliable... Honda's are very popular in many Asian countries with bad roads. They are not popular in Gulf countries or Africa, because they dont have real SUVs and Pickups.

Honda is a lot smaller manufacturer than Toyota, and they are competing well only in few markets like USA, South America, Japan and China... Europe, Gulf, Africa, Russia, it is all very small for Honda. Heck, Mazda outsells Honda in Europe these days.

 

[CIF]

@CIF While i agree that Honda's are more expensive to maintain than Toyota's, I dont think they are less reliable... Honda's are very popular in many Asian countries with bad roads. They are not popular in Gulf countries or Africa, because they dont have real SUVs and Pickups.

Honda is a lot smaller manufacturer than Toyota, and they are competing well only in few markets like USA, South America, Japan and China... Europe, Gulf, Africa, Russia, it is all very small for Honda. Heck, Mazda outsells Honda in Europe these days.

Notice I said regions with the world's roughest roads, not simply bad roads. In Russia, the Middle East, Africa, most of rural South America, rural Australia... Hondas are not that popular nor high sellers. In many of these regions Hondas are either low sellers or virtually non-existent. In the regions I listed by the way, even unibody Toyota and Lexus models are quite popular. It's not as simple as Honda lacking body-on-frame.

Reliability studies and metrics all over the world generally place Hondas with lower reliability than Toyotas. It's not a huge difference, but it's there. The cost to own difference however is very noticeable.

I agree that Honda is a fairly small manufacturer. My main issue is with the automotive media. They need to stop hyping Honda so much and treat them like the small manufacturer that they are.

 

[ssun30]

Can you comment in detail on the ride quality vs the XV60?

It would be unfair to compare a Camry with an ES...of course even an older ES will have more sound insulation and more seat padding. The surprise is in NVH, where the A25+8AT is simply on an another level compared to the 2AR+6AT in the ES250. But NVH is not the whole story. Something as old as a XV40 ES350 would still be more comfortable than the XV70 Camry, but the powertrain is really getting close to the V6.

I've never been in a NA-spec XV50 Camry, although I heard post-facelift XV50 were considerably better in ride quality compared to early generations. I've been in the XV50 Aurion (Asia-spec Camry) which has a softer suspension tune compared to the NA-spec Camry. I couldn't tell the difference in ride quality because roads in Shanghai are really good. The most noticeable difference will be in the powertrain.

In a fairer comparison, the XV70 Camry surpasses an Audi A4L and Mercedes C-Class L in ride quality. The closest would be the Buick LaCrosse and the Cadillac ATS-L. The BMW 3-Series L is more comfortable but it drives like a boat. How ironic is that?

 

[ssun30]

I agree that Honda is a fairly small manufacturer. My main issue is with the automotive media. They need to stop hyping Honda so much and treat them like the small manufacturer that they are.

I don't know if the NA-spec CR-V suffers from the oil dilution problem. It is a problem specific to the L15B7 variant used by the CR-V. In China this whole thing was so widely reported that it completely destroyed Honda's reputation and is responsible for the rapid rise of Toyota. It's so overblown it almost feels unfair. Toyota/Lexus didn't even suffer at all during the sticky throttle investigation while in USA it had long lasting impact on their reputation. On the other hand I don't see any significant report of oil dilution on the other shore of the Pacific.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

I don't know if the NA-spec CR-V suffers from the oil dilution problem. It is a problem specific to the L15B7 variant used by the CR-V. In China this whole thing was so widely reported that it completely destroyed Honda's reputation and is responsible for the rapid rise of Toyota. It's so overblown it almost feels unfair. Toyota/Lexus didn't even suffer at all during the sticky throttle investigation while in USA it had long lasting impact on their reputation. On the other hand I don't see any significant report of oil dilution on the other shore of the Pacific.

This is the first I hear of this situation. In North America myriad versions of the L15B7 (1.5-liter turbo) power the latest Civic (including the Si), all but base CR-V and most Accords.

 

[CIF]

It would be unfair to compare a Camry with an ES...of course even an older ES will have more sound insulation and more seat padding. The surprise is in NVH, where the A25+8AT is simply on an another level compared to the 2AR+6AT in the ES250. But NVH is not the whole story. Something as old as a XV40 ES350 would still be more comfortable than the XV70 Camry, but the powertrain is really getting close to the V6.

I've never been in a NA-spec XV50 Camry, although I heard post-facelift XV50 were considerably better in ride quality compared to early generations. I've been in the XV50 Aurion (Asia-spec Camry) which has a softer suspension tune compared to the NA-spec Camry. I couldn't tell the difference in ride quality because roads in Shanghai are really good. The most noticeable difference will be in the powertrain.

In a fairer comparison, the XV70 Camry surpasses an Audi A4L and Mercedes C-Class L in ride quality. The closest would be the Buick LaCrosse and the Cadillac ATS-L. The BMW 3-Series L is more comfortable but it drives like a boat. How ironic is that?

Wow thanks for that. Still a lot of useful information and comparisons here. I have yet to actually look over or drive an XV70 myself. In fact, sadly I haven't been in a single TNGA vehicle yet. I'm so busy with many things in life that I have not had time to examine or ride in brand new vehicles that I've wanted to. Also so far I haven't seen much XV70 taxi Camrys in my city yet, but I expect them soon.

That's great to hear that roads in Shanghai are really good. Quite a different situation in many North American and European cities in comparison.

Edit: I personally have had extensive drive and seat time with the post-facelift XV50 Camry here in North America. To me the ride quality is really good, and that's why I'm curious how the XV70 compares.

I don't know if the NA-spec CR-V suffers from the oil dilution problem. It is a problem specific to the L15B7 variant used by the CR-V. In China this whole thing was so widely reported that it completely destroyed Honda's reputation and is responsible for the rapid rise of Toyota. It's so overblown it almost feels unfair. Toyota/Lexus didn't even suffer at all during the sticky throttle investigation while in USA it had long lasting impact on their reputation. On the other hand I don't see any significant report of oil dilution on the other shore of the Pacific.

Joaquin Ruhi already answered, but yes we have this engine variant here in North America. No surprise as many Hondas around the world are only using a few engine variants now. I haven't heard of this issue myself, but also to be fair I do not follow Honda much anymore as their products and Honda as a company holds little interest to me. I only occasionally follow new products to see how they compare competitively, and that's about it. What I do know from being a former Honda owner is different models and generations here in North America (up to some pretty new models) have had a variety of issues, ranging from transmission problems, to engine problems, to brake problems, to body integrity problems, to various issues on the V6 engines with cylinder deactivation. Some Hondas have also had major oil burning issues, but I have not heard anything personally regarding the L15B7. Of course as mentioned I also haven't really been looking either.

 

[CIF]

I don't know if the NA-spec CR-V suffers from the oil dilution problem. It is a problem specific to the L15B7 variant used by the CR-V. In China this whole thing was so widely reported that it completely destroyed Honda's reputation and is responsible for the rapid rise of Toyota. It's so overblown it almost feels unfair. Toyota/Lexus didn't even suffer at all during the sticky throttle investigation while in USA it had long lasting impact on their reputation. On the other hand I don't see any significant report of oil dilution on the other shore of the Pacific.

Also I would like to comment on this. This is totally the opposite situation here in North America with the automotive media. Regular media here rarely comments on automotive issues unless they are huge problems. The automotive media here likes to pick on Toyota and Lexus a lot, so even any small problems are exaggerated. With the sticky throttle situation for ToMoCo, some of the media here made it seem almost as if the world was coming to an end.

With many other competitors, the automotive media here glosses over or ignores many problems. Much of the automotive media here has a particular dislike for ToMoCo more than any other automotive company. Honda is often praised and hyped here by the automotive media. Even many of the newer Youtube auto personalities that are based in North America behave much the same way for the most part as the standard automotive media. They pick on ToMoCo a lot and praise or hype almost every other competitor while glossing over many problems that competitors have.

To be clear I am also making a distinction between automotive media (like Car and Driver, Road and Track, etc.) and industry media. Industry media (like Autonews or Wards Auto), that reports on the automotive industry in a neutral way I class as a separate media group.

 

[spwolf]

I don't know if the NA-spec CR-V suffers from the oil dilution problem. It is a problem specific to the L15B7 variant used by the CR-V. In China this whole thing was so widely reported that it completely destroyed Honda's reputation and is responsible for the rapid rise of Toyota. It's so overblown it almost feels unfair. Toyota/Lexus didn't even suffer at all during the sticky throttle investigation while in USA it had long lasting impact on their reputation. On the other hand I don't see any significant report of oil dilution on the other shore of the Pacific.

Worst was in Europe, where German media blasted Toyota for years about sticky throttle, with most info being completely wrong. German Toyota sales have not reached previous levels even today.

Our dealership at that time has replaced well over 100 throttles based on TSB and only one that had issue with it was one that our technicians broke during the change, so changed version ended up with issue. And we are in hot/humid area that would result in the issue like in Florida. Other parts of the country could not possibly have it, simply required specific conditions, and we never saw the issue in real life.

 

[mikeavelli]

I swear I am so tempted to rock a white/red SE and mod it out... the car is beautiful....

 

[Motor]

A unique offer in the European D/E sedan segment.

 

[spwolf]

I hope TMME gets some sporty model for Camry... this one looks way too fleet/business/old people.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

I don't know if the NA-spec CR-V suffers from the oil dilution problem. It is a problem specific to the L15B7 variant used by the CR-V. In China this whole thing was so widely reported that it completely destroyed Honda's reputation and is responsible for the rapid rise of Toyota. It's so overblown it almost feels unfair. Toyota/Lexus didn't even suffer at all during the sticky throttle investigation while in USA it had long lasting impact on their reputation. On the other hand I don't see any significant report of oil dilution on the other shore of the Pacific.

This issue has finally become a big deal here in the United States thanks primarily to Consumer Reports and Autoblog, for one, has picked up the story as well.

 

[ssun30]

This issue has finally become a big deal here in the United States thanks primarily to Consumer Reports and Autoblog, for one, has picked up the story as well.

I didn't realize the true scale of this issue until I read the report published by the State Consumer Rights Agency ('Agency' for short). Before the onset of the Oil Gate, 75% of the owners who bought the CR-V in the past three months reported significant oil dilution and complained to the dealership. Honda's initial statement was that oil dilution is a feature (as is in their statement in U.S.) and does not interfere with normal operations. Only one month after the problem surfaced, the 'Oil Gate' became publicly broadcast during the 'March 15th Consumer Rights Day Show' (also known as 'the 315', where lots of scandals, particularly in the automotive industry, become exposed). The reason was that Honda failed to address the issue in a way that satisfies the Agency's requirements. Basically Honda wanted to rectify engine design in a later date but the Agency demanded a complete no-sale order if Honda failed to provide satisfactory solution to existing vehicles within 60 days. So Honda gave the no-sale order that technically persists indefinitely until the engine is fixed. However dealerships started disobeying the order after merely 15 days for obvious reasons and Honda turned a blind eye and tried to delay the Agency (the problem is, the Agency is only advisory and not regulatory). Now it seems the Oil Gate has mostly silenced after Honda issued a recall of all vehicles equipped with turbocharged L15B engines which seemingly fixed the issue. However it is not a guaranteed fix since the oil dilution issue is only noticeable in winter, so Honda has delayed long enough. Nobody knows if these L15Bs will survive this winter, and it's coming very soon.

Right now Honda is on its way to recovery, but it really gave Toyota this golden opportunity to replace it in the 'Big Three', the other two being VAG and GM.