Official 8th Generation (2018+) 010B Camry Discussion

CIF

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Not to go too off-topic, but this Honda oil issue is becoming a big deal it seems. Can't say I'm surprised though.

Also here's an example to dispel the media and internet myth that Honda is some excellent engineering powerhouse when it comes to consumer vehicles. Honda engines, including the very latest turbo Earth Dreams engines use solid valve lifters. These require periodic valve adjustment (a somewhat expensive and involved process that requires an experienced hand to be done properly) for optimal engine operation. Engines with such valves can also be fairly noisy as valve clearances get more out of spec. The benefit is strong and reliable high RPM operation and suitability for aggressive cam profiles. Also technically part of the valvetrain becomes more simple, but other parts of the valvetrain become a bit more complex to necessitate the ability to adjust the valves. In comparison some other competitors, specifically Toyota use hydraulic lifters (and other similar designs) on almost all their modern engines. These automatically adjust the valves keeping them continually in spec for the life of the engine. These engines run quieter overall, require less maintenance due to never needing valve adjustment and in theory offer longer engine life as the valve clearances are always in spec. In comparison to solid lifters, these do not handle high RPM operation all that well. Also the cylinder head design needs to be more complex and expensive, yet other parts of the valvetrain are simplified due to there being no need for accommodating valve adjustment.

There is another key difference between the two. Engines with solid lifters excel at making really good HP at high RPM, with decent HP at moderate RPM and so-so to poor HP at low RPM. Engines with solid lifters also typically make so-so torque numbers at low and moderate RPM, but pretty good torque numbers at high RPM. So in other words much of the engine power curve occurs at higher RPM. In comparison, engines with hydraulic lifters make decent to good HP and torque at low and moderate RPMs, but not great numbers at high RPMs. Solid lifters originate from high RPM race engines, whereas hydraulic lifters were created for consumer engines. So from the consumer market perspective, one can see the problem here. Honda's approach of using solid lifters requires more maintenance for the consumer, leads to generally a noisier engine and requires more work from any consumer driving a Honda as essentially the driver has to always push the engine to high RPM to extract optimal usable HP and torque out of it. In contrast, Toyota's modern approach for consumer engines ensures less maintenance and less hassle, overall quieter operation, and requires less work from the driver as the engine does not need to be pushed to a high RPM to extract optimal usable HP and torque out of it. Now yes different technologies like direct injection and turbos enhance both types of engines to different extents, but they don't change the fundamental nature of each type of valve design.

So in conclusion, Honda's approach is great for high RPM performance applications or high RPM tuning (like in high RPM motorcycles, Honda's core product strength), but not very practical for real world consumer use. Honda's use of turbos does mitigate some of the real world drawbacks of solid lifters for regular consumers, but brings some new problems. Mainly Honda's modern Earth Dreams turbo engines are fairly high maintenance and as we can see with this on-going oil issue, are not that reliable. Many enthusiasts will say that Honda has excellent engineering because they apply their race technology to consumer vehicles. Very few bother to ask why, and at what cost? The average consumer has zero need for a vehicle with an engine that is designed for high RPM operation and tuned with aggressive cam profiles, especially in modern big cities with lots of stop and go traffic. I can personally attest to this, having previously owned a Honda and having test driven many Hondas in heavy stop and go traffic. Every single one personally was a pain to drive in stop and go traffic. I have not test driven any Honda with a turbo Earth Dreams engine yet, but given all these engines are single conventional turbo running fairly high boost pressure combined with solid valve lifters, I can already imagine they would still be a pain to drive in heavy stop and go city traffic.
 
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ssun30

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With the introduction of the Accord Hybrid, Honda made a comeback in the mid-size sedan segment, toppling the Camry and retaking second place at 18,598 sold in September. Meanwhile GAC Camry dropped to 14,628. However, Honda will be making a significantly lower profit per vehicle since at the same trim level the Accord is ¥30k cheaper than the Camry. The Camry does have a much better safety package at the low end, which is its second strongest selling point (first is the exterior, of course). Honda is subsidizing the hell out of the Accord to make up for the market share lost during the Oil Gate. In general I don't think this 4-to-3 ratio will remain stable since Honda couldn't keep subsidizing the Accord indefinitely. I do think Toyota is comfortable with selling fewer cars at higher margins though, since they are capacity-capped anyway. Even before TNGA they already had the highest profit-per-vehicle by a long shot. Toyota cars made in China are on average 10 times as profitable as industry average.

The Civic and CR-V are completely ruined by the scandal though, as they are now hopelessly outsold by the Corolla/Levin and RAV4.
 

spwolf

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With the introduction of the Accord Hybrid, Honda made a comeback in the mid-size sedan segment, toppling the Camry and retaking second place at 18,598 sold in September. Meanwhile GAC Camry dropped to 14,628. However, Honda will be making a significantly lower profit per vehicle since at the same trim level the Accord is ¥30k cheaper than the Camry. The Camry does have a much better safety package at the low end, which is its second strongest selling point (first is the exterior, of course). Honda is subsidizing the hell out of the Accord to make up for the market share lost during the Oil Gate. In general I don't think this 4-to-3 ratio will remain stable since Honda couldn't keep subsidizing the Accord indefinitely. I do think Toyota is comfortable with selling fewer cars at higher margins though, since they are capacity-capped anyway. Even before TNGA they already had the highest profit-per-vehicle by a long shot. Toyota cars made in China are on average 10 times as profitable as industry average.

The Civic and CR-V are completely ruined by the scandal though, as they are now hopelessly outsold by the Corolla/Levin and RAV4.
Heh, actually Camry still outsold it... remember those numbers are for wholesale - what Honda sold to dealers, not retail.

We have separate retail numbers (sold to customers). Toyota is one of the few up 10% for the month, with Camry and C-HR sales contributing the most.
Both Camry and C-HR seem production limited right now, more so Camry, while I expect C-HR production to go up.

upload_2018-10-23_16-30-24.png

https://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2018/10/china-september-2018-retail-sales-market-at-standstill-at-16/
 

ssun30

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Heh, actually Camry still outsold it... remember those numbers are for wholesale - what Honda sold to dealers, not retail.

We have separate retail numbers (sold to customers). Toyota is one of the few up 10% for the month, with Camry and C-HR sales contributing the most.
Both Camry and C-HR seem production limited right now, more so Camry, while I expect C-HR production to go up.

View attachment 3035

https://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2018/10/china-september-2018-retail-sales-market-at-standstill-at-16/
Thank you so much for this piece of information. BSCB is really stepping up the quality of sales report. How did they obtain these numbers? It's surprising that a foreign website reports more comprehensive and accurate information than their chinese counterparts.

I have always wondered why the numbers reported by chinese sales analysts differ, some times greatly, from manufacturer reported retail figures. For example Lexus posted 16,101 sales for Sep 18 while third parties reported 15,631. Now I see the 'data miners' deployed by sales analysts only obtain wholesale figures. So it makes much more sense now. Lexus only delivered 1,847 hybrids to dealers (due to a very slow ramp up of ES300h?). But in reality they sold 4,673 hybrids to customers thanks to oversupply in previous months and last-gen ES300h still in inventory.

Can we say the wholesale numbers are actually the manufacturer's expectation of sales of next month? That raises the question why GAC Honda vastly overestimated the impact of the Accord Hybrid, and why GAC Toyota has to underdeliver. I don't think Camry is capacity-strained, now that they have worked out most of the issues with GA-K.

I know that TNGA has quite a steep learning curve for the factories, in particular greatly increased amount of training and demand for skill level. We'll see how much issue FAW have when they debut the Avalon in November.
 

spwolf

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Thank you so much for this piece of information. BSCB is really stepping up the quality of sales report. How did they obtain these numbers? It's surprising that a foreign website reports more comprehensive and accurate information than their chinese counterparts.

I have always wondered why the numbers reported by chinese sales analysts differ, some times greatly, from manufacturer reported retail figures. For example Lexus posted 16,101 sales for Sep 18 while third parties reported 15,631. Now I see the 'data miners' deployed by sales analysts only obtain wholesale figures. So it makes much more sense now. Lexus only delivered 1,847 hybrids to dealers (due to a very slow ramp up of ES300h?). But in reality they sold 4,673 hybrids to customers thanks to oversupply in previous months and last-gen ES300h still in inventory.

Can we say the wholesale numbers are actually the manufacturer's expectation of sales of next month? That raises the question why GAC Honda vastly overestimated the impact of the Accord Hybrid, and why GAC Toyota has to underdeliver. I don't think Camry is capacity-strained, now that they have worked out most of the issues with GA-K.

I know that TNGA has quite a steep learning curve for the factories, in particular greatly increased amount of training and demand for skill level. We'll see how much issue FAW have when they debut the Avalon in November.

it is more about production at factory i think, than their expectation... A lot of manufacturers play with these wholesales numbers, there is whole school of thought about it in europe where they end up registering them as demo vehicles or 1 day vehicles to boost "sales".

Looking at it, Camry has 15k per month capacity at the factory. That seems right, 100% production increase? For anything more, they will have to increase production (more than adding another shift).

They also cant easily reduce production when needed, and that also leads to difference between wholesale and retail numbers.
 

Levi

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The Camry will sell in Europe and replace the Avensis. The thing is that the Avensis, in these last years was only sold as wagon, and no more as sedan, whereas the new Camry will be sedan only. What are customers the need a Camry wagon to replace their Avensis wagon going to do, other than buying outside TMC? CUVs have more overall cargo volume, but thanks to tall ceiling/roof, wagons can fit longer objects.
 

spwolf

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The Camry will sell in Europe and replace the Avensis. The thing is that the Avensis, in these last years was only sold as wagon, and no more as sedan, whereas the new Camry will be sedan only. What are customers the need a Camry wagon to replace their Avensis wagon going to do, other than buying outside TMC? CUVs have more overall cargo volume, but thanks to tall ceiling/roof, wagons can fit longer objects.
I guess in your country, but Europe wide still got sold as sedan too.

Corolla Wagon now has wheelbase stretched to match Avensis, and I think it has more space too.

I doubt Camry will sell a lot, or that Toyota is too worried about Avensis 24k Sales out of 1m in Europe.

Verso missing is another problem volume wide but I guess small cuv will easily make up for that, and then some.
 

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Toyota is trying to make interesting and fun cars again, from the 86 to a manual transmission-equipped Corolla hatchback, plus the Supra that will finally be revealed soon. The next models to get a dash of excitement are perhaps a little more unexpected. The company revealed on Twitter that it will be adding two new TRD models: the Toyota Camry, and even more shocking, the Avalon.

The announcement came with the above photo, which shows the two sizable sedans next to each other. While we don't see the entirety of either car, we do see a lot more than we would expect for a teaser. We see aggressive splitters under the front bumpers, and black wheels with glaring red brake calipers. We wouldn't be surprised if the front was matched with side skirts, a rear diffuser and a little rear spoiler.

Judging by Toyota's off-road TRD models, these cars may also come with a number of handling modifications, but not much in the way of additional power. So we expect firmer springs and shocks, perhaps thicker anti-roll bars, and maybe more aggressive tires and brake pads. While we would always welcome more power, we found the 301 horsepower V6 in the Camry feels plenty gutsy as is, and delivers a sweet sound. The same goes for the Avalon, though its extra weight is sure to blunt the V6's performance a bit.

We'll be curious to see the exact set of equipment on these presumably sporty sedans when they make their official debut at the L.A. Auto Show at the end of the month. At the moment, our only disappointment is that the Corolla hatchback didn't get the TRD treatment. But perhaps that's coming at a later date.

Source: https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/01/2019-toyota-camry-avalon-trd-la-auto-show/
 

JJohn341

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Toyota is trying to make interesting and fun cars again, from the 86 to a manual transmission-equipped Corolla hatchback, plus the Supra that will finally be revealed soon. The next models to get a dash of excitement are perhaps a little more unexpected. The company revealed on Twitter that it will be adding two new TRD models: the Toyota Camry, and even more shocking, the Avalon.

The announcement came with the above photo, which shows the two sizable sedans next to each other. While we don't see the entirety of either car, we do see a lot more than we would expect for a teaser. We see aggressive splitters under the front bumpers, and black wheels with glaring red brake calipers. We wouldn't be surprised if the front was matched with side skirts, a rear diffuser and a little rear spoiler.

Judging by Toyota's off-road TRD models, these cars may also come with a number of handling modifications, but not much in the way of additional power. So we expect firmer springs and shocks, perhaps thicker anti-roll bars, and maybe more aggressive tires and brake pads. While we would always welcome more power, we found the 301 horsepower V6 in the Camry feels plenty gutsy as is, and delivers a sweet sound. The same goes for the Avalon, though its extra weight is sure to blunt the V6's performance a bit.

We'll be curious to see the exact set of equipment on these presumably sporty sedans when they make their official debut at the L.A. Auto Show at the end of the month. At the moment, our only disappointment is that the Corolla hatchback didn't get the TRD treatment. But perhaps that's coming at a later date.

Source: https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/01/2019-toyota-camry-avalon-trd-la-auto-show/
Any chance Toyota will unveil AWD for Camry and Avalon?
 

F1 Silver Arrows

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Toyota is trying to make interesting and fun cars again, from the 86 to a manual transmission-equipped Corolla hatchback, plus the Supra that will finally be revealed soon. The next models to get a dash of excitement are perhaps a little more unexpected. The company revealed on Twitter that it will be adding two new TRD models: the Toyota Camry, and even more shocking, the Avalon.

The announcement came with the above photo, which shows the two sizable sedans next to each other. While we don't see the entirety of either car, we do see a lot more than we would expect for a teaser. We see aggressive splitters under the front bumpers, and black wheels with glaring red brake calipers. We wouldn't be surprised if the front was matched with side skirts, a rear diffuser and a little rear spoiler.

Judging by Toyota's off-road TRD models, these cars may also come with a number of handling modifications, but not much in the way of additional power. So we expect firmer springs and shocks, perhaps thicker anti-roll bars, and maybe more aggressive tires and brake pads. While we would always welcome more power, we found the 301 horsepower V6 in the Camry feels plenty gutsy as is, and delivers a sweet sound. The same goes for the Avalon, though its extra weight is sure to blunt the V6's performance a bit.

We'll be curious to see the exact set of equipment on these presumably sporty sedans when they make their official debut at the L.A. Auto Show at the end of the month. At the moment, our only disappointment is that the Corolla hatchback didn't get the TRD treatment. But perhaps that's coming at a later date.

Source: https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/01/2019-toyota-camry-avalon-trd-la-auto-show/

OMFG I AM ACTUALLY SCREAMING YES TOYOTA! THEY LOOK SO MEAN IT'S NOT EVEN FUNNY.

Now being serious, I just really hope there are genuine performance enhancing upgrades other than things like air filter, exhaust, wheels, brakes and (probably) suspension. An AWD system would help this car by a long shot and maybe a small boost in power and torque. Ford Fusion Sport who? Lol quite literally though, it's getting axed.
 

ssun30

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I hope TRD will re-calibrate all the mapping because they used to do a much better job than stock on truck engine tunes. The 2GR-FKS is good for at least 318hp (on the LS350) without changing any components so we can expect a minor gain here.
 
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spwolf

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I hope TRD will re-calibrate all the mapping because they used to do a much better job than stock on truck engine tunes. The 2GR-FKS is good for at least 318hp (on the LS350) without changing any components so we can expect a minor gain here.
difference is only few hp, rest is from different measurement standard, EPA is much stricter since 2009. I would look at 4-5hp max from new exhaust.
 

ssun30

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difference is only few hp, rest is from different measurement standard, EPA is much stricter since 2009. I would look at 4-5hp max from new exhaust.
So you are saying the USDM IS350 has 10hp more than the USDM Camry because SAE measures them differently :p
 

spwolf

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So you are saying the USDM IS350 has 10hp more than the USDM Camry because SAE measures them differently :p
I am clearly saying it does not have 318hp as IS350 in China :)

Exhaust will get us 4-5hp extra but does it really matter? Main difference in performance would be AWD which lets usual FWD much better 0-60 numbers, as we know from Audi's.
 

mikeavelli

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USA is getting a big TRD push.... they are still conflicted a bit on Gazoo but it has no meaning in the USA so TRD for now...
 

ssun30

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Latest rumor for the FAW-Toyota Avalon: it will receive the M20A as the base engine option. That's the first time the 2.0L Dynamic Force gets in GA-K. So I guess next year's RAV4 will also receive that engine. Pricing will be ~10% higher than the Camry, but will not touch the Crown/ES.

FAW also debunked rumors that the Avalon will replace the Crown, as strong sales this year contributed to the decision to keep the Crown in production for as long as possible.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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Latest rumor for the FAW-Toyota Avalon: it will receive the M20A as the base engine option. That's the first time the 2.0L Dynamic Force gets in GA-K. So I guess next year's RAV4 will also receive that engine.
The M20A has already been tacitly confirmed for a handful of European RAV4s. Here are the pertinent passages from last month's Toyota Europe Newsroom RAV4 release for the 2018 Paris Motor Show:

The new RAV4 will be available with two TNGA powertrains, both more powerful and fuel-efficient than those in the current model...

Toyota predicts that (hybrid share of total RAV4 sales) will rise from the current 85 per cent to 90 per cent for the new model in Western Europe. A new 2.0 litre petrol engine will also be available, with a choice of manual or automatic transmissions.
 
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