flexus
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Well if that's the case I'd say Century is only luxury car in the world.
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CRSKTN
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I'll be sure to let Rolls Royce know what you think, I'm sure they'll be devastated.
Let me know when the Century starts selling outside of Japan and TMC thinks people will pay bentley/rolls/S AMG money for it.
flexus
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Sorry but I don't want to argue anymore. We clearly have different opinions in many cases. Now if you let me I will continue enjoyning my holiday in Cyprus.
CRSKTN
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The fact you think going from Finland to Cyprus is some impressive trip says more about you and where you're at in life than I think you intended to reveal, which coincidentally is pretty funny to me.
flexus
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Well I'm actually right now sipping Keo and enjoyning my holiday. That pretty much hurted me since I'm quite a traveller heres map of where I've visited note that I'm in my first quarter of life. If you want to continue spamming please do so. I really wanted to stop arguing with you its a shame that this site does not have blocking ability.
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CRSKTN
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Oh man are you for real? You did it again, hahahah.
EDIT: Ok, i got my screenshots so I can show people and laugh, mods, i know this back and forth wasn't productive so wipe it if you want. I just got some real comedy out of this whole thing, so i'm satisfied. Sorry for the departure from more civilized conduct, LE people.
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flexus
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I'll go back to the topic. I just read interesting article by Kurumanonews where they discuss possibility that Subaru and Mazda are losing their brand identity by cooperating with Toyota. We haven't really discussed this here. I must say Mazda and Subaru hybrids lack interest from me as they use exactly same hybrid system as Toyotas vehicles.
Gecko
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It would be incredibly odd for a conservative company like ToMoCo to switch gears after 3 years of TNGA-related announcements and begin development of an I6 when they just launched a brand new Dynamic Force V6. Most Toyota engines live on a 10+ year cycle. V35A-FTS was deemed a flagship engine for the LS, so now we are saying that should have been an I6...? The existence of a brand new TT V6 and new co-developed I6 is making very little sense to me.
For Mazda, who hasn't had their own 6cylinder engine in decades, I understand starting from scratch and going with an I6 for boosted applications. For Toyota I do not see what they stand to gain or what sense it makes.
It is possibly a discussion for another thread, but Lexus' decision to attempt to become a "lifestyle brand" is one of their biggest and most damaging mistakes over the last decade, IMO. Lexus is not a lifestyle brand. There is no lifestyle to owning a Lexus when you can own everything from UX to LC. Young, old, black, white, European, American, fat, skinny, outdoorsy, indoorsy, high tech, low tech... there is no inherent value added by Lexus that you cannot get from another brand.
Apple - we use our phones for everything we do in our lives. LuLuLemon - launched and popularized "athleisure" clothing that people wear for everything from working out to casual work days. Work/shop/live urban developments - where our entire lives take place. Those are examples of lifestyle brands.
As you yourself note, Lexus is a (nice) way to get from point A to point B - while you are living your life/lifestyle. That does not make Lexus a lifestyle brand. "Experience Amazing" and lifestyle marketing has been a clever blanket diversion for Lexus to produce sub-par cars with marketing that makes them look like more than they are. Showing people eating food under tents and smiling wearing nice clothes does not make a lifestyle brand.
In the world of marketing, "lifestyle brand" is something of the past. As I mentioned before, it was a term launched 5-6 years ago when social media influencing became a new channel for companies. Many brands rushed to claim they too were "lifestyle" only to realize that many consumers see 90% of experiences and goods as a means to an end - not something they identify as part of who and what they are, aka "lifestyle."
Lexus would do well to get back to product messages. After all, that is what everybody wants: great products. Only problem is that Lexus has comparably few of them, so I am sure fluffy "lifestyle marketing" will be here to stay until we are further into the TNGA rollout with real tangible competitive advantages worth promoting.
Ian Schmidt
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I'm not convinced the "lifestyle branding" is actually Lexus' primary marketing message; the ads lately have tended to be product-focused almost to a fault. (The 5LS launch ads, as has been noted, sounded almost like you were being scolded with a list of features; the brand-new MIB tie-in ads for the LCh do this much better). We see a lot of the lifestyle stuff here on LE because it's krew's job to post everything about Lexus, but the average consumer has never heard of Intersect or the yacht or the Sriracha IS 😂
Apple, often cited as a leading "lifestyle brand", has been very focused for the last decade or so on ads that show the product actually performing some task, and that made them even more money than the abstract lifestyle advertising they did previously.
Gecko
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Lexus has had their share of pet projects like the Yacht, Valerian jet, a hoverboard, MIB Jet, etc... but their general approach over the last ~decade has been lifestyle people and settings.
To your point, I think we've seen an encouraging trend of going back to a product focus where there are worthy highlights.
Old/Bad/Lifestyle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-wus6rWexE
New/Good/Product:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs05rz9Q3aU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ixHuk4Rkz0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4jmW9gOpQ0
All of a sudden Mazda is the best gasoline engine maker in the world? I thought Ferrari, BMW, MB, Subaru and TMC, VAG are best gasoline engine maker in the world?
CRSKTN
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Seriously, that claim kind of surprised me.
You guys need to calm down because there seems to be some confusion over this hypothetical Inline-6 engine. It is not what you guys think it will be, and I base my speculations on numerous papers by Toyota and Mazda on their next-gen ICE. I am not going to cite these papers here since they should be quite easy to find anyway.
First, what could this engine be like? It will be a Skyactiv-X, which means boosted lean burn through a supercharger and spark controlled compression ignition. It will also heavily use water cooled EGR, and probably feature an extreme undersquare design. We are talking about 1:1.5 bore-to-stroke ratio here, so a 3.0L I6 will be 75mm bore x 112.5mm stroke. The stroke is so long that it won't rev very well, but it doesn't need to. Plus Toyota's latest metallurgy allows a 103.4mm stroke engine to rev to 6,800rpm so this engine should reliably rev to 6,000rpm.
The end result would be a 46%+ thermal efficiency engine making 90-100hp/L and 110-120Nm/L. That means 270-300hp and 330-360Nm for the 3.0L I6. Not very impressive figures but it's not meant to impress. To compensate for the relative lack of power and torque, this engine is almost guaranteed to be hybridized. With a 50 kW Li-ion battery the system would produce ~350-380hp making it a good powertrain for a mid-range IS/RC and entry-level LQ/LS. This engine won't make considerably more power since it runs extremely lean.
This engine will not be a replacement for the V35A-FTS because these are in two completely different power classes. The latter is 50% more powerful with twice the amount of torque and will mainly be used in utility vehicles. This won't be a performance engine meant to compete with the B58 or the M256 or their successors either.
Why do I say this is a good news? Because it is a better alternative to, say, a hybridized inline-4 turbo, and I think everybody here agrees that an inline-4 LS would be the ultimate doomsday scenario.
First, what could this engine be like? It will be a Skyactiv-X, which means boosted lean burn through a supercharger and spark controlled compression ignition. It will also heavily use water cooled EGR, and probably feature an extreme undersquare design. We are talking about 1:1.5 bore-to-stroke ratio here, so a 3.0L I6 will be 75mm bore x 112.5mm stroke. The stroke is so long that it won't rev very well, but it doesn't need to. Plus Toyota's latest metallurgy allows a 103.4mm stroke engine to rev to 6,800rpm so this engine should reliably rev to 6,000rpm.
The end result would be a 46%+ thermal efficiency engine making 90-100hp/L and 110-120Nm/L. That means 270-300hp and 330-360Nm for the 3.0L I6. Not very impressive figures but it's not meant to impress. To compensate for the relative lack of power and torque, this engine is almost guaranteed to be hybridized. With a 50 kW Li-ion battery the system would produce ~350-380hp making it a good powertrain for a mid-range IS/RC and entry-level LQ/LS. This engine won't make considerably more power since it runs extremely lean.
This engine will not be a replacement for the V35A-FTS because these are in two completely different power classes. The latter is 50% more powerful with twice the amount of torque and will mainly be used in utility vehicles. This won't be a performance engine meant to compete with the B58 or the M256 or their successors either.
Why do I say this is a good news? Because it is a better alternative to, say, a hybridized inline-4 turbo, and I think everybody here agrees that an inline-4 LS would be the ultimate doomsday scenario.
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Making a powerful engine is trivial as long as cost is not a concern. Making the most efficient engine (and a cost-effective one) that's one generation ahead of the competition is hard. Mazda is the best because it is a very compact company, so resources can be focused on very few projects. BMW is a close second, and when we talk about overall powertrain integration (engine+transmission) it is arguably the best. Most of the powertrain engineers will agree Skyactiv is way ahead of the industry, and that the BMW B48/ZF8HP combo is the golden standard for mainstream powertrain.
IMO Toyota comes third with good engine technology but their calibration are almost always off due to the sheer number of powertrain combinations and a relative lack of manpower.
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CRSKTN
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Toyota is quite literally, 10+ times bigger than Mazda, what's the rationale behind them not being able to sufficiently resource their engine development?
mikeavelli
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We live in a world with FWD BMWs, V-8 Hyundais and Kia's, Porsche SUVs and Audi Super cars. Everything I thought and we thought was luxury has simply changed. Every way to run an auto company has changed.
While I believe this is a rumor I also can see possible parts sharing simply to spread the costs around so these cars come to light. Not sure if anyone has been paying REAL attention to Mazda but they are now straddling the near luxury line very well. Their prices are higher, their interiors are fantastic and even stuff like their merchandise and event spaces have moved upscale.
Lets not forget the Mazda Millenia of years ago. Mazda I think realized that they will never be a big volume player like Honda/Toyota and have moved themselves upmarket compared to the two.
Would Lexus share with Mazda? That I don't think so. Toyota? Maybe so.
While I believe this is a rumor I also can see possible parts sharing simply to spread the costs around so these cars come to light. Not sure if anyone has been paying REAL attention to Mazda but they are now straddling the near luxury line very well. Their prices are higher, their interiors are fantastic and even stuff like their merchandise and event spaces have moved upscale.
Lets not forget the Mazda Millenia of years ago. Mazda I think realized that they will never be a big volume player like Honda/Toyota and have moved themselves upmarket compared to the two.
Would Lexus share with Mazda? That I don't think so. Toyota? Maybe so.
Don't look much into this. This could have been one of the ideas thrown around that has possibly ended up on some paper or a note. If this happens to be accurate it would only mean that Mazda has adopted GA-L/N platform as a base for their own and not the other way around. Mazda needs midsize RWD platform to accommodate midsize to large sedan and SUVs they have in mind and GA-N is just that. They are not going to RWD Mazda 3 or CX30. If they indeed happen to develop the platform from the scratch, which I highly doubt, it makes zero sense for Toyota to use that platform in any of Lexus vehicles unless they are admitting the defeat of GA-L/N as something that was flawed from the get go.
The only instance Mazda sourced RC could make any sense is if Mazda was to make midsize coupe as well. Mazda's been trying to find the case to revive RX as PHEV with Renesis as battery charging only drivetrain but that is so expensive and it doesn't make sense anymore now that BEV are starting to roll out. That PHEV platform adjustment alone would not make sense for RC either. Who knows but I find it hard to believe that Mazda is willing to make a gamble and make I6 ICE RWD coupe.
What I am sure of is that Toyota is trying really hard to offset cost development of upcoming RWD models, that's very apparent and thus why we get nonsense stories like BMW engine in IS and now this.
The only instance Mazda sourced RC could make any sense is if Mazda was to make midsize coupe as well. Mazda's been trying to find the case to revive RX as PHEV with Renesis as battery charging only drivetrain but that is so expensive and it doesn't make sense anymore now that BEV are starting to roll out. That PHEV platform adjustment alone would not make sense for RC either. Who knows but I find it hard to believe that Mazda is willing to make a gamble and make I6 ICE RWD coupe.
What I am sure of is that Toyota is trying really hard to offset cost development of upcoming RWD models, that's very apparent and thus why we get nonsense stories like BMW engine in IS and now this.
Joaquin Ruhi
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This is what I've been saying all along, starting about 3 weeks ago in the Garage Skyactiv-X thread. I also touched upon that in my original draft for the Lexus/Mazda story that kicked off this thread, but Krew opted to edit that out given his penchant for concise brevity.
Bestcar is joining Fox News and CNN as the top 3 fake news/rumours shenanigans.
Toyota collaborate with BMW for the Supra it must means the new IS will be a rebadged 3 Series.
Mazda is developing I6 engines so Lexus will definitely use Mazda engines and platforms and rebadge the RC. What’s next? Lexus will rebadge the Model S as the LS BEV? Rebadge the Model X as the LX/LQ BEV? Rebadge the Model 3 as the IS BEV?
Toyota collaborate with BMW for the Supra it must means the new IS will be a rebadged 3 Series.
Mazda is developing I6 engines so Lexus will definitely use Mazda engines and platforms and rebadge the RC. What’s next? Lexus will rebadge the Model S as the LS BEV? Rebadge the Model X as the LX/LQ BEV? Rebadge the Model 3 as the IS BEV?
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