Will1991

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@ssun30 , regarding thermal efficiency Toyota's engines are second to none, if I'm not mistaken for petrol engines "we" are the best one of the market with 41% for the 2.5L Hybrid (Camry).
Also, not only for peak efficiency "our" engines have a wide high efficiency zone wen reading BSFC:

(Note: Didn't found for hybrid, this is Dynamic Force Convencional Engine).

This is almost as the bests diesel engines on the market!

In my opinion, if anyone is capable of mass production high efficiency engine it's Toyota, not Mazda.

Mazda-s Skyactiv-X isn't even capable of 40% peak thermal efficiency as Toyota's engines:



(Note:Efficiency at 2000rpm)
 

Gecko

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You guys need to calm down because there seems to be some confusion over this hypothetical Inline-6 engine. It is not what you guys think it will be, and I base my speculations on numerous papers by Toyota and Mazda on their next-gen ICE. I am not going to cite these papers here since they should be quite easy to find anyway.

First, what could this engine be like? It will be a Skyactiv-X, which means boosted lean burn through a supercharger and spark controlled compression ignition. It will also heavily use water cooled EGR, and probably feature an extreme undersquare design. We are talking about 1:1.5 bore-to-stroke ratio here, so a 3.0L I6 will be 75mm bore x 112.5mm stroke. The stroke is so long that it won't rev very well, but it doesn't need to. Plus Toyota's latest metallurgy allows a 103.4mm stroke engine to rev to 6,800rpm so this engine should reliably rev to 6,000rpm.

The end result would be a 46%+ thermal efficiency engine making 90-100hp/L and 110-120Nm/L. That means 270-300hp and 330-360Nm for the 3.0L I6. Not very impressive figures but it's not meant to impress. To compensate for the relative lack of power and torque, this engine is almost guaranteed to be hybridized. With a 50 kW Li-ion battery the system would produce ~350-380hp making it a good powertrain for a mid-range IS/RC and entry-level LQ/LS. This engine won't make considerably more power since it runs extremely lean.

This engine will not be a replacement for the V35A-FTS because these are in two completely different power classes. The latter is 50% more powerful with twice the amount of torque and will mainly be used in utility vehicles. This won't be a performance engine meant to compete with the B58 or the M256 or their successors either.

Why do I say this is a good news? Because it is a better alternative to, say, a hybridized inline-4 turbo, and I think everybody here agrees that an inline-4 LS would be the ultimate doomsday scenario.
Based on what you described above, why would anyone want this engine in a sports coupe? Slow revving 6k RPM redline with a hybrid? That sounds much better for SUVs and trucks than a sporty car.
 

Gecko

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If Mazda gets access to GA-L/N, imagine a world where you can buy a midsize $38-60k RWD/performance-oriented SUV from Mazda but not Lexus.

The japanese performance RX/RX-L/NX that many of us have been waiting more than a decade for.

Hey, @krew, might be time to kick off Mazda Enthusiast!
 

mikeavelli

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Bestcar is joining Fox News and CNN as the top 3 fake news/rumours shenanigans.
Toyota collaborate with BMW for the Supra it must means the new IS will be a rebadged 3 Series.
Mazda is developing I6 engines so Lexus will definitely use Mazda engines and platforms and rebadge the RC. What’s next? Lexus will rebadge the Model S as the LS BEV? Rebadge the Model X as the LX/LQ BEV? Rebadge the Model 3 as the IS BEV?
It is not fake news, it is simply a rumored report and up for interpretation. It is still news just far fetched. The article didn't say with 100% certainty it was happening. If it did then it would be fake news.
 

maiaramdan

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Honestly I have no problem in BMW or Mazda collaborations but under the following
1) Lexus shall terminate all its FF models or turns them to FR

2) the collaborations needs to be mostly or shall I say exclusively under Toyota brand
 

ssun30

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@ssun30 , regarding thermal efficiency Toyota's engines are second to none, if I'm not mistaken for petrol engines "we" are the best one of the market with 41% for the 2.5L Hybrid (Camry).

In my opinion, if anyone is capable of mass production high efficiency engine it's Toyota, not Mazda.

Mazda-s Skyactiv-X isn't even capable of 40% peak thermal efficiency as Toyota's engines:
You are comparing the Dynamic Force against the Skyactiv-G, an engine family from 2012, not the 2019 Skyactiv-X which is 44-45% efficient. Skyactiv-G was way ahead when it launched with 38% thermal efficiency. Toyota's 2ZR-FXE used on the Prius was slightly more efficient at that time but that engine is too weak to be used without hybrid assist.

Based on what you described above, why would anyone want this engine in a sports coupe? Slow revving 6k RPM redline with a hybrid? That sounds much better for SUVs and trucks than a sporty car.
Well it's the same question as asking 'why would anyone buy a RC300h or a LC500h?'. I know I won't but apparently a lot of people in Europe and Japan do. Not every coupe needs to be an F nor can it be under today's fuel economy and emission regulations.
 

maiaramdan

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Agree in your first half , not much in the second half
For me I feel the luxury market now is just about performance, so if Lexus wanna succeed they need to F all the coupes and FR sedans they have
 

Airplane

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You are comparing the Dynamic Force against the Skyactiv-G, an engine family from 2012, not the 2019 Skyactiv-X which is 44-45% efficient. Skyactiv-G was way ahead when it launched with 38% thermal efficiency. Toyota's 2ZR-FXE used on the Prius was slightly more efficient at that time but that engine is too weak to be used without hybrid assist.



Well it's the same question as asking 'why would anyone buy a RC300h or a LC500h?'. I know I won't but apparently a lot of people in Europe and Japan do. Not every coupe needs to be an F nor can it be under today's fuel economy and emission regulations.
Then Lexus don’t even need to exist, because Toyota can just make upscale models because people would buy it. Just because people would buy it doesn’t mean it should exist. if Lexus really rebadge Mazda for the RC and IS then it won’t be long for them to rebadge everything and become the brand of rebadge. Then what’s the point of the TNGA platform?
 
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Ian Schmidt

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Then Lexus don’t even need to exist, because Toyota can just make upscale models because people would buy it. Just because people would buy it doesn’t mean it should exist. if Lexus really rebadge Mazda for the RC and IS then it won’t be long for them to rebadge everything and become the brand of rebadge. Then what’s the point of the TNGA platform?
I don't get this post, I thought we'd established that under the deal Mazda would use TNGA and there'd be a co-developed engine, not that we're gonna rebrand the Mazda3 as an IS.

I'd take a Lexus Miata if it had the V35A in it though.
 

spwolf

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I very much doubt that they will pair SkyActive-X with full HSD, it doesn't make sense from cost perspective.

So far SkyActive-X has been a dud IMHO, lets home they manage to improve it a lot in the future.
 

ssun30

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I very much doubt that they will pair SkyActive-X with full HSD, it doesn't make sense from cost perspective.

So far SkyActive-X has been a dud IMHO, lets home they manage to improve it a lot in the future.
The way Skyactiv-X is engineered means it's better used with some sort of electric boost. It will at least require some sort of mild hybrid (though we both know it doesn't work in practice).

Yes this 2019 version of the Skyactiv-X seems not really ready and Mazda rushed its deployment.

My expectation is that 45%-class engines and 40%-class engines will co-exist in the upcoming decade. Skyactiv-X will be used in cost-insensitive vehicles anyway. I don't think the average Corolla or Camry will use that sort of tech. But for Lexus? Definitely plausible.

Toyota is quite literally, 10+ times bigger than Mazda, what's the rationale behind them not being able to sufficiently resource their engine development?
To give credit where it's due the Dynamic Force family is lightyears better than the 2010-2015 generation of engines most Toyota/Lexus use today. OVTune, a tuner company who has been very vocal on Toyota's poor engine calibration (especially on the gen.3 Taco), is very impressed with Dynamic Force's extremely complex engine control strategy and claims it is the best in industry.

So the reality is more like Toyota spent almost all its resource on getting Dynamic Force right which means older engines receive much less development leaving current gen Lexus product very uncompetitive (though somehow the LS500 still managed to underperform). But it will take several years for Dynamic Force to fully proliferate into their lineup. My comment on who makes the best engine will likely change in a couple of years.
 

spwolf

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@ssun30 all the PRs are cool, but reality is sometimes very different. For instance I expected diesel skyactive to be a lot more competitive VS HSD but my test drive was around 6.1l in RAV4 and 9.2l in CX-5. Honestly, it is very rare to see such high difference between vehicles.

I am sure Mazda will keep improving but new skyactivex has higher comsumption than their diesels so I am not sure how much to expect really?

It would be cool if Toyota gives them HSD, but I wonder when will that happen... Subaru is still using their own, crappier, system and they are even more owned by TMC than Mazda. Apperantly these things take time.

Right now main goal of TMC is to lower the costs of HSD, performance wise latest Gen is already fine both mpg and power.
 

carguy420

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Add more fuel to the fire lol.

Making it more like the JZX(Cresta, Chaser and Mark II)? That would be kinda cool IMO.

Remember it's co-development and not rebadging, and I rather see Toyota partnering with Mazda than some other shoddy car manufacturers that are all about quantity over quality.

Maybe the GA-L and GA-N isn't that suitable for their smaller RWD cars(too heavy?). Especially if TMC is trying to push really hard to make their more entry-level RWD cars sporty and fun to drive. But that's just my theory though, take it with a grain of salt.
 

maiaramdan

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I am start thinking different way
What if the new Mazda chassis is just a re-badged or an evolution of the TNGA-N

I can't imagine under any logic or even non logic way that Toyota will take that much money and time on developing a chassis that will only used in 2 cars aka current new gens Century & Crown

Mazda also not having a current FR chassis

Add those 2 points above with word always found from the first batch of this rumour which is that the chassis and engine will be co-developed
 

krew

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I just want to go on record and say I don't care at all about who develops what. I just want Lexus to have an all-electric model and a competitive engine lineup. The rest is just noise to me at this point.
 

flexus

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Just came my mind: If Mazda will offer manual option I would pick it over Lexus. Nowadays any car that has manual feels sporty. It's just so satisfying in a tight corner or u turn when you push gas and clutch pedal speed shift to 2nd and release the clutch.
 

maiaramdan

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@flexus , don't bother yourself about the shifter anymore, it's already dead even if it appears in any future car with all these new active safety assistance and automatic braking, it's formally dead
 

CRSKTN

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Just came my mind: If Mazda will offer manual option I would pick it over Lexus. Nowadays any car that has manual feels sporty. It's just so satisfying in a tight corner or u turn when you push gas and clutch pedal speed shift to 2nd and release the clutch.
Lol, that says a lot. Maybe you should just switch to a Mazda, it seems more your... style. I imagine if you don't care about anything to do with quality or customer service or luxury and aren't very picky about style or quality of materials, it's a fine choice.
 

flexus

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@flexus , don't bother yourself about the shifter anymore, it's already dead even if it appears in any future car with all these new active safety assistance and automatic braking, it's formally dead
Except 370z, Type R and WRX STI ;)
 
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