German Big 3 automakers emissions cheating disaster Master Thread

[mikeavelli]

No more VW diesels in the USA
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...re-of-u-s-business?cciid=email-autonews-daily

 

[mmcartalk]

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...re-of-u-s-business?cciid=email-autonews-daily

Just last week at the Los Angeles Auto Show, the CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, Hinrich Woebcken, told reporters he did not believe diesel would ever "come back in the same magnitude as we've seen it up to now" in the U.S. market.

"Emissions standards in following years are getting tougher and tougher," Woebcken said. "

While I certainly don't condone the company's actions that led up to the scandal, one of the very few things I do agree with them on is that CAFE and emission standards have gotten to the point where they are, IMO, absurd. This, while other forms of transportation (large trucks, trains, aircraft, ships, etc.....) are allowed to legally run around with virtually unchecked emissions. When's the last time, for example, that a diesel locomotive or big semi-18-wheeler ever had to take an EPA test?

 

[CIF]

No more VW diesels in the USA
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...re-of-u-s-business?cciid=email-autonews-daily

Wow that's huge news! A lot of VW fans are going to freak out, since most VW fans are diesel fans. This is also going to further dent VW's reputation. Diesel models were one of the only interesting things VW had going for their models in North America.

 

[mmcartalk]

Wow that's huge news! A lot of VW fans are going to freak out, since most VW fans are diesel fans.

Yeah.....VW TDIs had a relatively small, but almost cult-like following. An ex-co-worker of mine had two Jetta TDIs over the years, and loved them both. Got 55-60 MPG on the road, at moderate speeds, with a lot less complexity under the hood and in the vehicle than typical hybrid. Even a Prius can be hard-pressed to get that kind of mileage....though, to be fair, most hybrids can run on cheap, lower-cost 87 octane gas, whereas diesel fuel, especially for the low-sulfur stuff that is EPA-mandated now, is significantly more expensive.

 

[IS-SV]

Well done VW.

 

[mmcartalk]

Well done VW.

Perhaps I should have added something to my last post above.......Now, however, we know how VW was able to get 55-60 MPG out of those TDIs and still "pass" emissions LOL.

 

[CIF]

I never trusted VW (or Audi diesels). Whether older or newer models, every time I drove behind one, they seriously stunk and smelled, so I always figured there was something seriously wrong with them passing emissions. Little did I know just how big of a scandal this all would turn into.

 

[mmcartalk]

I never trusted VW (or Audi diesels). Whether older or newer models, every time I drove behind one, they seriously stunk and smelled, so I always figured there was something seriously wrong with them passing emissions. Little did I know just how big of a scandal this all would turn into.

How old is old, though? None of the automotive diesels of today, including TDIs, can be compared to the primitive VW diesels of the 1970s, which stunk, were hard to start on a cold day, emitted visible black soot, rattled like a can of marbles, had all kinds of water-separation problems in the fuel, took all morning for the glow plugs to heat up, and, in general, were a PITA. In comparison, today's diesels (even VW/Audi Cheat-O-Matics LOL) basically start and run like gas engines.

 

[CIF]

How old is old, though? None of the automotive diesels of today, including TDIs, can be compared to the primitive VW diesels of the 1970s, which stunk, were hard to start on a cold day, emitted visible black soot, rattled like a can of marbles, had all kinds of water-separation problems in the fuel, took all morning for the glow plugs to heat up, and, in general, were a PITA. In comparison, today's diesels (even VW/Audi Cheat-O-Matics LOL) basically start and run like gas engines.

Well in my area, the oldest VWs or Audis I see still on the roads are 90s models. So whether 90s models or new VW/Audis, they still smell and stink and in hindsight it's obvious that modern VW/Audi diesels could never truly pass emissions.

 

[IS-SV]

Well in my area, the oldest VWs or Audis I see still on the roads are 90s models. So whether 90s models or new VW/Audis, they still smell and stink and in hindsight it's obvious that modern VW/Audi diesels could never truly pass emissions.

Yes. Fake "clean diesels" are exclusively a VW thing. Only VW went out of their way to publically boast of the "cleanliness" while criminally cheating and lieing to everybody for years.

Simplicity is not something that should be associated with a diesel that runs as clean as a modern gas engine in 2016, a legal clean diesel has more complicated and expensive hardware, plus significantly higher maintenance costs too.

 

[mmcartalk]

Simplicity is not something that should be associated with a diesel that runs as clean as a modern gas engine in 2016, a legal clean diesel has more complicated and expensive hardware, plus significantly higher maintenance costs too.

I haven't seen all the specs, but, from what I understand, VW/Audi TDIs don't need (or, at least, didn't need) the extra maintenance from the urea-injections that the larger Mercedes and BMW Bluetec diesels do. Perhaps (and, IMO, this is an interesting question)........ it may (?) be because of the cheating.

 

[IS-SV]

I haven't seen all the specs, but, from what I understand, VW/Audi TDIs don't need (or, at least, didn't need) the extra maintenance from the urea-injections that the larger Mercedes and BMW Bluetec diesels do. Perhaps (and, IMO, this is an interesting question)........ it may (?) be because of the cheating.

And what extra mainrence are you referring to? Tell us more pls.

Btw - my comparison of modern diesel maintenance costs was versus modern GASOLINE engine (not another diesel).

 

[mmcartalk]

And what extra mainrence are you referring to? Tell us more pls.

I was generally refering to the periodic urea-injections. From what I understand, TDIs don't require them every 10,000 miles or so, like with the larger Bluetecs from other manufacturers. And, if the diesel has a turbo (as some of them do), that may, in some cases. require both more expensive oil and/or more frequent changes....but that's sometimes also the case with a turbo gas engine.

Btw - my comparison of modern diesel maintenance costs was versus modern GASOLINE engine (not another diesel).

Correct......gas engines don't require the urea injections. But, some of the DI (direct-injection) gas engines can build up carbon deposits in places where the detergent-packages in the fuel (if applicable) have a hard time reaching them, necessitating periodic fuel-system or engine cleaning.

 

[IS-SV]

I was generally refering to the periodic urea-injections. From what I understand, TDIs don't require them every 10,000 miles or so, like with the larger Bluetecs from other manufacturers.

And how often do the TDI engines require urea refills, (because the only TDI engines running legally clean have similar setup)?

 

[mikeavelli]

What's really really crazy is unless they got caught, they would still be selling these fraudulent engines.

No one can blame the EPA since they cheated around the world. You cannot blame the EPA since the EPA didn't tell anyone to cheat. Thats like telling Harvard your tests were too hard so I cheated to pass them.

 

[mmcartalk]

What's really really crazy is unless they got caught, they would still be selling these fraudulent engines.

No one can blame the EPA since they cheated around the world. You cannot blame the EPA since the EPA didn't tell anyone to cheat. Thats like telling Harvard your tests were too hard so I cheated to pass them.

Oh, I agree, if one holds all automakers to the same standard. I wasn't implying that VW and Audi were justified in what they did. But there is such a thing as pollution-standards that are (maybe) getting too strict. You mention Harvard.....even college professors sometimes grade on a curve, if they think they made the test too hard.

What's really really crazy is unless they got caught, they would still be selling these fraudulent engines.

With Peich's brutal style of management, if they didn't get in trouble on this (diesel pollution), they probably would have somewhere else. They already had a reputation, at least in the American market, for poor build-quality (despite the aforementioned tight panel-gaps that Bob Lutz and Peich discussed), arrogant dealerships/sales/service, and for ignoring customers.

 

[mmcartalk]

And how often do the TDI engines require urea refills, (because the only TDI engines running legally clean have similar setup)?

I have not personally owned one, but from what I understand (as I mentioned above) I don't think the TDIs, at least under VW's factory set-up which included cheating, required the urea stuff at all. But, if not, perhaps we now know why LOL.

 

[IS-SV]

I have not personally owned one, but from what I understand (as I mentioned above) I don't think the TDIs, at least under VW's factory set-up which included cheating, required the urea stuff at all. But, if not, perhaps we now know why LOL.

LOL, it's not "perhaps" anymore. Most with the slightest bit of automotive knowledge can easily understand the nature if VW's criminal deception that made the urea stuff unneccessary while appearing to run as clean as competing passenger car engines. Btw-old news now.

I sympathize with VW TDI fans, who thought they had some great eco engine (not that these were especially car savvy owners to begin with). Now they end up feeling very disappointed and fooled. And earlier they repeated/paraphrased the same VW-produced lies to others, finding out later they were spreading false information. Way to go VW, burning those loyal fans.

 

[mmcartalk]

LOL, it's not "perhaps" anymore.

I was just being facetious, Steve. I thought by now you understood my humor, and my style of posting.

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to the forum.....I'll be on my way in a few minutes to eat and watch football with friends. Everyone have fun and stay safe.....there will probably be drunks on the road tonight.

 

[CIF]

I didn't even find out about this until today, but another consequence of the cheating scandal which I guessed might come into play has fully come into play. Audi a few weeks ago announced they are leaving the top tier LMP1 class in FIA World Championship Racing, which includes Le Mans. That is a further huge hit for Audi, as the FIA World Championship and Le Mans are very prestigious in motorsports racing. I had guessed that Audi would reduce the budget from their LMP1 program, but for them to be leaving entirely is very significant. This shows they truly are strapped for cash as a result of the cheating scandal, despite whatever boasts of large war chests that the VW Group has.

The sister VW Group team Porsche still remains in LMP1 FIA Racing, but they use a gas engine, not a diesel. Plus I think Porsche, even though a part of VW Group, has quite a bit of independence which includes budgets.