mmcartalk
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That's basically a repeat of what I posted above (post #373)..........but your article, here, describes it in a little more detail.
German Big 3 automakers emissions cheating disaster Master Thread
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That's basically a repeat of what I posted above (post #373)..........but your article, here, describes it in a little more detail.
lol, like VW (blowhard) lawyers are in a position of strength in any of the jurisdictions where they committed illegal actions.
mmcartalk
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What's interesting, though, is that, in walking out of the court, they weren't cited for contempt. The judge did speak her opinion....she called it "stunt-like", but she (apparently) did not actually order the court bailiffs to detain or arrest those involved. VW, according to the article, has challenged the court's jurisdiction in this case. If the court actually does have legal jurisdiction in this case, seems to me that not only could VW not make that claim, but those who walked out would have been cited for contempt....maybe even locked up for a couple of days. Those lawyers may have been smarter than they looked (that's why they are paid big bucks LOL), and the judge may (?) have found that her hands were tied.
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Just add a few hundred more million to the billions of related losses for VW, the judge knows their screwed especially in higher courts. Criminal and fraudulent activities at VW have led to this gift that keeps on giving.
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maiaramdan
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VAG = Apple of the Automotive
The stink (and unhealthy air) of diesel is prevalent in many parts of Europe, largely from large numbers of gross-polluting passenger cars. I'm glad we've avoided that in North American. VW did something positive by putting the nail in the coffin for passenger diesels in US, the low take rate will only decline. Same thing is gradually happening in Europe as the peak diesel sales years seem to be in the past.
Yes, and no surprise that Bosch is getting caught red-handed in this fraudulent activity, expect to hear their sheepish admissions later (versus earlier lies)...
Yes, and no surprise that Bosch is getting caught red-handed in this fraudulent activity, expect to hear their sheepish admissions later (versus earlier lies)...
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mmcartalk
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I agree that diesels, in general, smell up things more than typical gasoline engines, But, here in the U.S., even with VW's cheating, most of the diesel fumes actually come from big semi-trucks (and to a lesser extent, diesel locomotives) that move goods/merchandise and keep stores in stock. Those big trucks and trains have been exempt from formal emission regulations for years....and it shows. And, even with automotive diesels, it's difficult to compare today's advanced TDIs and Bluetechs (when they are not cheating LOL) to the loud, unrefined, clattery, Stink-O-Matic auto diesels of the 70s and 80s. Not only that, but today's car-diesels are much easier to start on cold mornings (the glow-plug systems have advanced tremendously), emit much less black soot (particulates), don't need the water-separation as much as they once did, operate on MUCH cleaner (though somewhat more expensive) low-sulfur diesel fuel, don't idle like a can of marbles, and provide what a lot of drivers like.....high torque at low RPMs. I'm not making excuses for VW's actions here......but just pointing out the huge advances in auto-diesel technology in the last 30-40 years, particularly with common-rail units.
Yes, we know all that, common knowledge, generalizations, about last 30-40 years.
But as said, as it relates to VW diesel fraud (the topic here being VW passenger vehicles, not heavy trucks) in 2015/2016:
"The stink (and unhealthy air) of diesel is prevalent in many parts of Europe, largely from large numbers of gross-polluting passenger cars.", and Volkswagen was one of many participants in this huge pollution problem (creating very unhealthy air in major cities) in Europe.
Expect to hear more from Bosch in coming weeks too.
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mmcartalk
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You mean as a (possible) collaborator? Wouldn't be surprising, given Bosch's role in producing ignition and fuel-injection systems. But, of course, those parts are subject to how VW software programs them....so the ultimate role comes right back to VW.
"Ultimate role" is meaningless if evidence is exposed regarding Bosch's role, despite previous denials.
Recent estimates place price tag for shareholder lawsuits at $9 billion.
mmcartalk
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It would probably have to be very rough estimates.......hard to place a firm value on them, since stock prices are volatile and can change day by day, and hour by hour. Day-traders buy and sell stocks sometimes even by the minute, if they think there's enough profit involved.
Lol, since when did shareholder lawsuits have accurate values placed on them? Since when did actual shareholder lawsuit settlements have accurate valuations associated with them? Just because it's hard to estimate firmly doesn't mean that highly compensated professionals are not capable of estimating these dollar amounts. Welcome to the modern world of business where critical estimates are often required. I know, because I've spent 30+ years involved with financial estimation as part of my professional role.
In short NA, when a company commits criminal/fraudulent actions in order to achieve financial performance and impacting stock prices positively during the fraud and negatively after admitting fraud. Everyday lawsuits like these are settled even for far more frivolous events.
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mmcartalk
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I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you...only pointing out that the estimates need to be good enough for a reasonable sum of what can be litigated for. I've sat on juries before in civil lawsuit cases....once as a foreman.
Of course the estimates have to be good enough, that's why professionals are involved, not hacks doing estimates for a hobby.
Yes, I've sat on juries too and also worked with lawyers in (civil) courtrooms too.
But not really applicable, because most of these lawsuits are settled outside of court.
mmcartalk
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I know that some of you may disagree with me about Bob Lutz, but I have always thought quite highly of him. Here's his thoughts on how VW got into this mess....and, IMO, it seems to have some merit. He blames it (mostly) on Ferdinand Piech's style of management.
(Bob, of course, does a Q/A column each month at Road and Track magazine)
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/
Ferdinand Piëch, the immensely powerful former chief of Volkswagen's supervisory board, is more than likely the root cause of the VW diesel-emissions scandal. Whether he specifically asked for, tacitly approved, or was even aware of the company's use of software to deliberately fudge EPA emissions testing is immaterial.
I sat next to him at an industry dinner in the Nineties, just after the fourth-generation Golf had debuted at the Frankfurt show. I told him, "I'd like to congratulate you on the new Golf. First of all, it's a nice-looking car, but God, those body fits!"
"Ah, you like those?"
"Yeah. I wish we could get close to that at Chrysler."
"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today.' "
"That's how you did it?"
"Yes. And it worked."
IT'S WHAT I CALL A REIGN OF TERROR AND A CULTURE WHERE PERFORMANCE WAS DRIVEN BY FEAR AND INTIMIDATION.
That's the way he ran everything. It's what I call a reign of terror and a culture where performance was driven by fear and intimidation. He just says, "You will sell diesels in the U.S., and you will not fail. Do it, or I'll find somebody who will." The guy was absolutely brutal.
I imagine that at some point, the VW engineering team said to Piëch, "We don't know how to pass the emissions test with the hardware we have." The reply, in that culture, most likely was, "You will pass! I demand it! Or I'll find someone who can do it!"
In these situations, your choice was immediate dismissal or find a way to pass the test and pay the consequences later. Human nature being what it is—if it's lose your job today for sure or lose your job maybe a year from now, we always pick maybe a year from now.
That management style gets short-term results, but it's a culture that's extremely dangerous. Look at dictators. Dictators invariably wind up destroying the very countries they thought their omniscience and omnipotence would make great. It's fast and it's efficient, but at huge risk.
This diesel fiasco is immeasurable in terms of damages—so much worse than Toyota acceleration, Ford Firestone tires, or GM ignition switches. In all those cases, tragically, people died, but it wasn't premeditated. You settle with the victims' families, pay the fine, put in the new parts, and for $1.5 billion, it can all be contained. But this Volkswagen mess is like the disaster that keeps on giving.
To make the cars legal in the U.S., VW will need to program them with the software that passes the test, in which case, performance is down and fuel consumption is up, and every VW TDI owner is part of a class-action suit against Volkswagen. To retrofit a urea system is basically a nonstarter, as it would require far too much change.
There is no easy fix. But you can probably rely on the German government to do what is necessary to pull Volkswagen out of this crisis.
In terms of marketing cars in the U.S., Volkswagen will need a radically new array of products that are much closer to mainstream American tastes than what it has. The whole Clean Diesel campaign, as the foundation of the VW brand, cannot be resurrected. It's history.
SUBMIT QUESTIONS TO BOB AT: http://rams.roadandtrack.com/askbob@roadandtrack.comBob Lutz has been The Man at several car companies, so your problems are cake. Bring 'em on.
(Bob, of course, does a Q/A column each month at Road and Track magazine)
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/
Ferdinand Piëch, the immensely powerful former chief of Volkswagen's supervisory board, is more than likely the root cause of the VW diesel-emissions scandal. Whether he specifically asked for, tacitly approved, or was even aware of the company's use of software to deliberately fudge EPA emissions testing is immaterial.
I sat next to him at an industry dinner in the Nineties, just after the fourth-generation Golf had debuted at the Frankfurt show. I told him, "I'd like to congratulate you on the new Golf. First of all, it's a nice-looking car, but God, those body fits!"
"Ah, you like those?"
"Yeah. I wish we could get close to that at Chrysler."
"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today.' "
"That's how you did it?"
"Yes. And it worked."
IT'S WHAT I CALL A REIGN OF TERROR AND A CULTURE WHERE PERFORMANCE WAS DRIVEN BY FEAR AND INTIMIDATION.
That's the way he ran everything. It's what I call a reign of terror and a culture where performance was driven by fear and intimidation. He just says, "You will sell diesels in the U.S., and you will not fail. Do it, or I'll find somebody who will." The guy was absolutely brutal.
I imagine that at some point, the VW engineering team said to Piëch, "We don't know how to pass the emissions test with the hardware we have." The reply, in that culture, most likely was, "You will pass! I demand it! Or I'll find someone who can do it!"
In these situations, your choice was immediate dismissal or find a way to pass the test and pay the consequences later. Human nature being what it is—if it's lose your job today for sure or lose your job maybe a year from now, we always pick maybe a year from now.
That management style gets short-term results, but it's a culture that's extremely dangerous. Look at dictators. Dictators invariably wind up destroying the very countries they thought their omniscience and omnipotence would make great. It's fast and it's efficient, but at huge risk.
This diesel fiasco is immeasurable in terms of damages—so much worse than Toyota acceleration, Ford Firestone tires, or GM ignition switches. In all those cases, tragically, people died, but it wasn't premeditated. You settle with the victims' families, pay the fine, put in the new parts, and for $1.5 billion, it can all be contained. But this Volkswagen mess is like the disaster that keeps on giving.
To make the cars legal in the U.S., VW will need to program them with the software that passes the test, in which case, performance is down and fuel consumption is up, and every VW TDI owner is part of a class-action suit against Volkswagen. To retrofit a urea system is basically a nonstarter, as it would require far too much change.
There is no easy fix. But you can probably rely on the German government to do what is necessary to pull Volkswagen out of this crisis.
In terms of marketing cars in the U.S., Volkswagen will need a radically new array of products that are much closer to mainstream American tastes than what it has. The whole Clean Diesel campaign, as the foundation of the VW brand, cannot be resurrected. It's history.
SUBMIT QUESTIONS TO BOB AT: http://rams.roadandtrack.com/askbob@roadandtrack.comBob Lutz has been The Man at several car companies, so your problems are cake. Bring 'em on.
mmcartalk
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It will be interesting to see if and when Piech is called to testify at any hearings (or if that has already taken place). It's one thing to make casual comments like that at a dinner with one of your VIP/CEO colleagues....quite another when in a witness chair or under oath.
Lutz, of course, having been an ex-Marine fighter pilot, and gone through the extremely strict discipline of the USMC, is probably in a good position to judge the pros and cons of a rigid, unyielding chain of command.
Unfortunately it took more that one ruthless leader to create this fraud/corporate disaster, but certainly VW's original lie regarding a "few rogue engineers" has already failed as an excuse.