5th Generation (2018+) Lexus LS 500 & LS 500h Megathread

[Joaquin Ruhi]

...are we sureness this pic is LS and maybe not the new IS sedan ?
Just had to ask

The passenger compartment (greenhouse) looks identical to the current LS. I don't see the upcoming IS copying it that closely.

Also, please note that I separated discussion threads for the minimal 2020 model year changes to 5LS versus the more significant ones coming for the 5LS midlife refresh.

 

[CRSKTN]

Found this on instagram, LS Facelift?View attachment 3904

Look up

 

[krew]

The Lexus LS sedan is rumoured to get a mid-cycle refresh next year, and now a camouflaged prototype spotted in Japan by Mag-X essentially confirms the fact.
Like most facelifts, the focus is on the lights and bumpers, and the changes seem relatively minor. There is a hint that this LS may be equipped with autonomous tech — from Lexus Enthusiast forum member TurboLag:

Mag-X also suggests a V8 hybrid 600h powertrain will be returning to the LS sedan, though it’s unclear if it would be the previously used 2UR-FSE 5L V8 or a new engine altogether. There’s also a hint of a possible 4-cylinder engine option, though this is unlikely to reach North America regardless.

Continue reading...

 

[meth.ix]

I'm not 100% sure because the picture is low quality, but there seems to be a part of the bottom grill that has not mesh, perhaps for another sensor for autonomous driving? New Porsches have their parking sensors in the opening of their grilles.

 

[Sebass]

I'm not 100% sure because the picture is low quality, but there seems to be a part of the bottom grill that has not mesh, perhaps for another sensor for autonomous driving? New Porsches have their parking sensors in the opening of their grilles.View attachment 3905

Yep, I definitely see that. I hope whatever it is, whether it be a sensor or something else, that it doesn't look strange or out of place on the final model.

 

[Sebass]

Considering that the LS already has the most up to date design language, I am excited to see what they are going to change on its exterior design. (aside from infotainment and new colors, I bet the interior will stay the same). The only obvious changes we can see are the new autonomous driving sensor right behind the front wheel/underneath the rearview mirrors and the revised headlights, that now have the L shaped LED split into two pieces. The L Led also now goes from underneath the triple beams to over them. The headlights are still partially covered though, so we will need to wait and see.
The rearview mirrors are oddly covered, despite having the exact same shape as the current ones. My guess is that they are hiding more sensors that are on the outside of the mirrors. I also wonder why they have covered up the Lexus logo, seeing as I can't imagine them changing it at all in the future, anyone got any guess for why they covered it?
It's pretty much impossible right now to tell what the rest of the front will look like, but I really hope they give their flagship car an even more unique look from the rest of the lineup. At this point, we don't know what the rear will look like, but I would love to see the taillights change to something more along the lines of the LC taillights:


Even though I already said that the interior would most likely change very little, here is my interior wishlist, that I could easily see being done.

- Physical heated and ventilated seat buttons for the front, that feel premium and expensive but that also aren't placed in some random location.
- Updated infotainment like in the 2020 RX, or maybe even a newer, better system. 😉
- An L model that adds a little bit more legroom in the back but more importantly the front, (I have heard a lot of people complain that the front feels more cramped than the ES). Although this won't fix the current LS's bigger issue of headroom, (that could only be fixed in a next-gen model), it's a start.
- Offering the beautiful Executive package with other interior colors than black, as well as new interior/exterior colors in general.
- (In the Executive Package), put the amazing kiriko glass in more areas of the car and replace the wood trim in most areas, e.g - steering wheel, front and rear center console, on the back of the front seats, in that strange second screen that isn't actually a screen, that sits next to the right of the main screen, and just try to find a way to get it in even more places.
- also, get that hand-pleated cloth into more areas of the interior.
- rip out the current paddle shifters and replace them with the ones in the LC. 😎

That's my mostly realistic refresh wishlist, let me know what things you guys would like to see.

 

[spwolf]

It would make sense for 300hp 2.4l turbo to show up in some markets for LS, as well as 3.5tt hybrid being a new LS600h.

Sensors are lidar, as expected and they mention it works be level 2 and upgradable to level 3, and they need new lidar sensors for that.

Engineers need to overcome their distaste for special market vehicles, so for instance anyone wants to imagine what would be journalist response to LS700h+ with 500hp+ and 30 mile range that would give it some crazy 80mpg?

Nobody will care that you need to plug it every 50 miles to get this performance, and nobody will bother with calculating mpg after those 30 miles.

 

[Sulu]

I am not convinced that a turbocharged engine is a good fit for a series-parallel -- power-split device (PSD) -- hybrid vehicle, as all Toyota and Lexus hybrids are.

I can understand using a turbocharged engine in a strictly parallel hybrid system (as the German automakers use), where the electric drive is used to accelerate the vehicle from stop and then assist the (downsized) engine while accelerating, but the engine then runs without electric assist at higher speeds. In this single electric motor parallel hybrid system, there is a more direct relationship between throttle position and engine rpm.

But you do not need a turbocharged engine in a series hybrid system, where an electric motor drives the vehicle and the engine is just used, running at a low, constant rpm, to recharge the battery; in a series hybrid vehicle, the aim is to minimize fuel consumption. PSD hybrids incorporate this drive mode.

PSD hybrids are not like the single electric motor hybrids, in which the electric motor assists the internal combustion engine; in single motor hybrids, the ICE is the primary power source and the electric motor assists. It can be argued that in dual electric motor PSD hybrids, in which the electric motor is constantly running (and always maintaining vehicle speed), the ICE assists the electric motor; in dual motor PSD hybrids (as all Toyota and Lexus hybrids are), the electric motor is the primary power source and the ICE assists.

PSD hybrids remove the direct relationship between throttle position and engine rpm, even in parallel hybrid mode; PSD hybrids have the engine running at constant rpm, balancing the power that is available to assist the electric drive motor by sharing any unneeded power with the generator -- the more ICE assist power needed, the less power is shared with the generator. The aim with PSD hybrids, that run the engine at a constant rpm, is to minimize fuel consumption.

But the aim of a turbocharged engine is to allow a smaller engine to run harder, to burn more fuel, to produce more power. Producing more power is nice, but at the cost of greater engine pressures, causing greater fuel consumption and greater engine wear? Was it not the aim -- even if it was not the primary aim -- of a PSD hybrid, to share the power load between internal combustion engine and electric drive, thereby lessening pressures on the engine, reducing engine wear and lessening fuel consumption?

Could there be other methods for increasing the effective power of the hybrid powertrain?

What about increasing the power of the electric drive motor (that may involve increasing battery capacity to ensure that there is enough electrical power available to drive the more powerful motor, which may mean that a plug-in hybrid, with its larger capacity battery, is the way to go, so give us LS 700h+)? Or coupling the PSD with a multi-speed transmission (as has already been done) to allow for torque multiplication (and faster off-the-line acceleration) in low gear and an overdrive gear for greater efficiency at high speeds?

 

[Sebass]

I've driven my LS500 at triple-digit MPH and it feels effortless, as you'd expect for a car in that class.

The gearing is clearly oriented towards smoothness. At a minimum, the F-Sport should have sportier gearing and there need to be a lot more options in general. It's flat-out stupid that you can't get an F-Sport with the luxury package.

That is my biggest issue with the LS 500 F sport, despite the fact that you don't really get any more performance, you lose massive amounts of luxury compared to the normal 500. The most obvious is as you mention, the fact that you can't get the Luxury or Executive packages on the F Sport. This completely ruins what the LS is supposed to be, a big luxurious sedan packed full of tech and luxury features that make it just as good if not better to sit in the back than the front. Opting for the F sport package on the LS will make you lose any opportunity to get the amazing center console in the Luxury and executive package LS.
This results in, (for rear passengers):
- loss of heated or cooled seats
- loss of massaging seats,
- loss of ability to control lights and most of the blinds
- loss of most of the blinds at all in the rear
- loss of the ability to recline seats (I am pretty sure)
- loss of that sick center armrest
- loss of the ability to adjust your seat pretty much at all
- loss of ability to adjust rear seat temperature in any way
- loss of ability to change the radio station or the source.

But Hey! at least if you go for the F Sport, your car will look real frisky!

 

[internalaudit]

Don't know about the eCVT/PSD, but how about supercharging it?

How Electric Supercharging Eliminates Turbo Lag

And why you can't just slap an electric supercharger on your normal car.

www.roadandtrack.com

So why can't you just slap an electric blower on your conventional car? It turns out, incorporating an e-supercharger requires extremely complex engine management. And building up no-lag boost with an e-blower requires plenty of electric power—far more than your conventional car's 12-volt system can provide.

 

[maiaramdan]

It would make sense for 300hp 2.4l turbo to show up in some markets for LS, as well as 3.5tt hybrid being a new LS600h.

Sensors are lidar, as expected and they mention it works be level 2 and upgradable to level 3, and they need new lidar sensors for that.

Engineers need to overcome their distaste for special market vehicles, so for instance anyone wants to imagine what would be journalist response to LS700h+ with 500hp+ and 30 mile range that would give it some crazy 80mpg?

Nobody will care that you need to plug it every 50 miles to get this performance, and nobody will bother with calculating mpg after those 30 miles.

Exactly, I came to say that same words

The new LS600h is just the rumoured 3.5TT hybrid with maybe high power electric motor

 

[Levi]

What does the F Sport add? Rather than adding power it sheds weight by not having every not necessary feature, which is a good thing for something intended to be sportier. It would be ironic for the sportiest version to be the most heavy. I can understand someone might want one other option, but at Lexus that is from a production perspective not possible.

 

[spwolf]

he aim with PSD hybrids, that run the engine at a constant rpm, is to minimize fuel consumption.

But the aim of a turbocharged engine is to allow a smaller engine to run harder, to burn more fuel, to produce more power. Producing more power is nice, but at the cost of greater engine pressures, causing greater fuel consumption and greater engine wear? Was it not the aim -- even if it was not the primary aim -- of a PSD hybrid, to share the power load between internal combustion engine and electric drive, thereby lessening pressures on the engine, reducing engine wear and lessening fuel consumption?

Could there be other methods for increasing the effective power of the hybrid powertrain?

What about increasing the power of the electric drive motor (that may involve increasing battery capacity to ensure that there is enough electrical power available to drive the more powerful motor, which may mean that a plug-in hybrid, with its larger capacity battery, is the way to go, so give us LS 700h+)? Or coupling the PSD with a multi-speed transmission (as has already been done) to allow for torque multiplication (and faster off-the-line acceleration) in low gear and an overdrive gear for greater efficiency at high speeds?

this is all true and this is how traditional Toyota engineer thinks.
Highlander Hybrid has higher output battery but that is about the limit of what you can actually regenerate.

It works for cheaper cars but not for Lexus or very heavy vehicles like Land Cruiser, where you still have to have that performance.

Also, having a lot more torque at 1800 rpm, would end up with engine running a lot more at 1800 rpm, as supposed to going to 4000-6000 rpm, depending on how strong did you press pedal.

Additionally, multi-speed transmission is also very complicated and expensive.

 

[spwolf]

p.s. if they are replacing GR with 2.4t, I am sure that it means they can get better power/efficiency with 2.4t than GR.

 

[ssun30]

@Sulu You are right turbocharged engines are not ideal for power split when utmost efficiency is considered. But they are required for high power density applications such as performance and utility vehicles. You can't just increase battery size to get more power for a truck: the battery will eventually run out, and after that the truck needs that turbo engine to pull weight up a hill since 100% of the energy comes from the ICE. The PSD could not maintain the engine at its optimal load point in this case, since the power demand overwhelms supply (which was compensated by electric assist when SOC is above threshold).

 

[Sebass]

What does the F Sport add? Rather than adding power it sheds weight by not having every not necessary feature, which is a good thing for something intended to be sportier. It would be ironic for the sportiest version to be the most heavy. I can understand someone might want one other option, but at Lexus that is from a production perspective not possible.

The F sport package adds more sporty exterior styling, sportier rims, it has a differently tuned suspension system, larger brakes, you get the LFA styled gauge cluster, F Sport performance seats, F sport steering wheel, and other F sport interior details.
If you get a rear-wheel-drive LS F sport, you have the ability to go for the Performance Package, which adds rear-wheel steering, and Active Stabilizers.
You said that not having all the luxury features makes the car lighter and that that is a good thing. However, the F sport models do not weigh a single ounce lighter than the non-F Sport cars and if you really don't mind losing all those luxuries for going for the F Sport package, then you may as well save a couple thousand dollars and go for the GS F, and get a much faster and lighter car.
Frankly, if the reason why Lexus doesn't let you get the Luxury and Executive packages on the LS F sport is because they would add weight, I think that is a pretty lame excuse. The LS is not a race car or some light sports car, so even if all the lost features I mentioned would have added 100+ lbs, who cares? I guarantee no one would notice the difference. The LS isn't a type of car that is going to be lapped hour after hour on the Nurburgring and therefore doesn't really need to lose those small amounts of weight for the most minute differences in performance.
I am certainly not opposed to a high-performance LS and would love to see an LS F. However if Lexus makes it, they better not take away all the Luxury amenities and features. If they do, then they ruin the point of the LS.
I would love to be chauffeured by some race car driver, (let's say Lewis Hamilton or hell, even Akio Toyoda), around the Nurburgring in an LS F, with them giving the car full beans. Meanwhile, I would be in the back with the seat fully reclined, the heated seat on, AC blowing on my face, and getting a massage. 😆

 

[Berto3818]

@Sebass I think all that will be done. I think they could possibly fix the headroom issue as well. I think it will get the TTV6 Hybrid that will give it a much needed performance boost and add the hybrid motors your looking at close to 500hp and lots or torque. which would be enough. I think they will do way with the cvt and put the 10 speed in it also. this will fix lots of issues.

 

[Berto3818]

@Airplane - i think the NA V6 is going to be gone and we will see dramatic gains with the new power train and hybrid. its going to solve a lot of the performance issues the the hybrid has been having. I was going to get the gas model but if they do this I will get the hybrid.

 

[Berto3818]

@Airplane your right but the hybrid will be the more powerful version.

 

[Sulu]

this is all true and this is how traditional Toyota engineer thinks.
Highlander Hybrid has higher output battery but that is about the limit of what you can actually regenerate.

It works for cheaper cars but not for Lexus or very heavy vehicles like Land Cruiser, where you still have to have that performance.

Also, having a lot more torque at 1800 rpm, would end up with engine running a lot more at 1800 rpm, as supposed to going to 4000-6000 rpm, depending on how strong did you press pedal.

Additionally, multi-speed transmission is also very complicated and expensive.

@Sulu You are right turbocharged engines are not ideal for power split when utmost efficiency is considered. But they are required for high power density applications such as performance and utility vehicles. You can't just increase battery size to get more power for a truck: the battery will eventually run out, and after that the truck needs that turbo engine to pull weight up a hill since 100% of the energy comes from the ICE. The PSD could not maintain the engine at its optimal load point in this case, since the power demand overwhelms supply (which was compensated by electric assist when SOC is above threshold).

So @spwolf, @ssun30, you are both saying that a turbocharged hybrid would be for truck use. I can understand that. But it would seem that the simpler P2 parallel hybrid (that the Germans use and that Ford is now also using) would a better fit for this type of use.

Ford and Toyota were cooperating on designing a hybrid system for heavy truck use but stopped the joint venture before a product was shown. Ford went with the simpler P2 parallel hybrid and Toyota -- as I understand it -- developed the complex Multi-Stage Hybrid for truck use but introduced it on the LS and LC Hybrids before using it on Toyota and Lexus trucks.

I think that if Toyota introduces a turbocharged hybrid, it really needs the multi-speed gearbox (i.e. the Multi-Stage Hybrid, knowing that Toyota will stick with PSD hybrids) for the fine-tuning required to maintain high fuel efficiency with the turbocharged ICE power source.