Rydo

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The moment I see the Audi, "gym, tan, laundry, lease", latest sneakers but actually broke cohort start clogging up my local Lexus dealership is the moment I start budgeting for a higher end brand.

Sorry, not sorry. I cant think of anyone who views the current batch of Audi drivers as anything but insufferable (not the older drivers) where I am. It's literally the "this car is my life and my social media handle" brand right now. Why would Lexus care about appealing to that group?

No thanks.

Oh, I find that group of people insufferable too. But sadly, that's who is buying your cars, or should I say, leasing them for silly money. Then leasing an A4. Then leasing an A7. Then leasing a Q7 when the family come. That's my point.

Lexus would be ridiculously dumb to not target a 20-something who has 40 years left of pumping monthly payments into their coffers.
 

CRSKTN

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Oh, I find that group of people insufferable too. But sadly, that's who is buying your cars, or should I say, leasing them for silly money. Then leasing an A4. Then leasing an A7. Then leasing a Q7 when the family come. That's my point.

Lexus would be ridiculously dumb to not target a 20-something who has 40 years left of pumping monthly payments into their coffers.

No, sorry, leasing cars is not "silly money" to spend. It's literally people figuring out how to spend the least amount possible. It's people chasing monthly payments, not $/vehicle. It's the challenge the germans are facing: Their margins are not strong, and their business model is difficult to keep up because the natural lease-return cycle creates a large second hand market of relatively new vehicles to compete with their showroom models. It's what happens when you appeal to people who largely want the appearance of success and are willing to suffer financially to do it.

Also the group you're describing largely has no social mobility. Economic and social indicators disagree with your point. I would want to see solid evidence that the majority flow is A4 A7 Q7. Most everyone i know who goes in at the high end came across from other high end vehicles.

Somebody who is stretching to afford their entry level performance Audi lease and insurance on top of their sneaker and gym addiction is not a "whale" for any dealer. They're high maintenance, low value people. What you want is the guy who emails you every 18-24 months to have the latest versions of the car they have dropped off at their home and their lease/financing rolled automatically.

Besides, most of the 20-somethings I knew in line to be able to afford those higher end models spent their 20s burning out on wall street, still in school, or some other productive way to use their time.

The worst part about social media is there is an entire generation of uninformed people going by what other uninformed people lie to them about.
 

Rydo

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No, sorry, leasing cars is not "silly money" to spend.

People figuring out how to spend the least amount possible? They basically almost pay for the car and then give it back to the dealer who can then sell it again on ANOTHER lease deal. By the time the first lease is up, the car has paid for itself, yet still has a huge value to be sold on the 'approved used' schemes.

Let's not pretend like the German car model is not working - aren't these the same German car makers who can afford to push out updates on their entire model lineup every 2-3 years? Not only that, can afford to have high performance variants across their whole lineup.

I agree that the social media generation in general are materialistic and the phrase keeping up with the Jones' doesn't even cover it. But like I say, whether they are insufferable or not, they are putting money into these car companies instead of running around in a 15 year old used beater like a generation before would have.
 

CRSKTN

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People figuring out how to spend the least amount possible? They basically almost pay for the car and then give it back to the dealer who can then sell it again on ANOTHER lease deal. By the time the first lease is up, the car has paid for itself, yet still has a huge value to be sold on the 'approved used' schemes.

Let's not pretend like the German car model is not working - aren't these the same German car makers who can afford to push out updates on their entire model lineup every 2-3 years? Not only that, can afford to have high performance variants across their whole lineup.

I agree that the social media generation in general are materialistic and the phrase keeping up with the Jones' doesn't even cover it. But like I say, whether they are insufferable or not, they are putting money into these car companies instead of running around in a 15 year old used beater like a generation before would have.

Germans are moving to fewer models and simpler offerings. Their current approach isn't sustainable. You see it in their capital efficiencies and margins.
 

spwolf

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Let's not pretend like the German car model is not working - aren't these the same German car makers who can afford to push out updates on their entire model lineup every 2-3 years? Not only that, can afford to have high performance variants across their whole lineup.

actually it is mostly not working, and they are not making a lot of money. That is why they are cutting down their model ranges.
BMW's net profit for 2019 was 4x smaller than Toyota's.
 

internalaudit

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Yeah, I wonder how it could be profitable in the long run. They raise the residual values on leases to offer low monthly payments to the original lessor. The lessor will not buy the car out at lease end.

Then they will sell / auction the car below the residual value because used car buyers know that many German cars are going to be expensive to keep post-warranty period.

The actual winners are the auctioneers or dealerships if they are careful to only bid on the right models/specs/characteristics lol.

German car makers like to nickel and dime on options and packages though so if the salesperson can get the prospective lessor to go for the higher spec'ed models with lots of high margin add-ons, then at least there's slightly better profits there.

Leasing makes sense for business in Canada because they can write off $800/month versus depreciate $30,000 over the life of the car but those numbers haven't gone up and there's not many cars you can buy with $30,000 in Canada. At least with $800/month leases over 4 years, that is still closer to luxury vehicle territory ($64k price tag) if we take residuals at 50%.

The only new car I will buy new is a xEV with three motors for electric torque vectoring, but hopefully a Lexus IS or NX with SSB at 15 year, 1,000,000 km battery warranty haha.
 
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Levi

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The moment I see the Audi, "gym, tan, laundry, lease", latest sneakers but actually broke cohort start clogging up my local Lexus dealership is the moment I start budgeting for a higher end brand.

Sorry, not sorry. I cant think of anyone who views the current batch of Audi drivers as anything but insufferable (not the older drivers) where I am. It's literally the "this car is my life and my social media handle" brand right now. Why would Lexus care about appealing to that group?

No thanks.

There are a few German cars I like, but I refuse because of the "image"/"status symbols". I don't want to be associated with, even if it is not what they think, I I think it (and you in this case). For me that is a negative image. There is nothing wrong with mainstream/generic, but when it is overrated and causes others to be underrated, that is an issue. Lexus is premium, but retains an neutral image (like Volvo), which I hope will remain even with Lexus being more common.


PS: Driving, in Rome, I see so many UX driving and parked every where, but really many. New NX will certainly be a hit. I even saw an IS Taxi, quite a rarity and impressive. Till now, I have seen very few RC, more IS, very few facelifted GS, but not a single ES and LS and LC for all these years. The only LS I saw was at the dealership, they had no LC, the only LC I saw was at autoshow Geneva.



BT: Still excited to see what they did with the new IS. It should still be possible to import one from the US (but costly).
 

Levi

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People figuring out how to spend the least amount possible? They basically almost pay for the car and then give it back to the dealer who can then sell it again on ANOTHER lease deal. By the time the first lease is up, the car has paid for itself, yet still has a huge value to be sold on the 'approved used' schemes.

Let's not pretend like the German car model is not working - aren't these the same German car makers who can afford to push out updates on their entire model lineup every 2-3 years? Not only that, can afford to have high performance variants across their whole lineup.

I agree that the social media generation in general are materialistic and the phrase keeping up with the Jones' doesn't even cover it. But like I say, whether they are insufferable or not, they are putting money into these car companies instead of running around in a 15 year old used beater like a generation before would have.


Too many unsold used cars parked everywhere. To few people with money to buy them. It is not like they'll give them for free, dealer/makers will just keep them.

I am eyeing and Infiniti FX30d of year 2016 with 70k km. The car is unsalable, (diesel, high taxes, Infiniti pulls out of Europe, no image,...) but there are also many BMWs parked, that do not move either, which makes the Infiniti is worse to get rid off.
 

internalaudit

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I think the reasons I would buy an IS over a GS or LS or any Lexus CUV/SUV are:

  • My family members and I are not bulky or tall and we all four will all fit in the IS just right.
  • Lighter cars with similar suspension setup as heavier and more expensive cars are likely more fun to drive. Also, you'd have to support increased weight by a factor of ^3 as dimensions increase. I recall that scientifically, monsters will have to really have large and thick legs to support their bodies.
  • Most of the features that I want are already in the IS. I don't want to pay $20,000 more to move up a higher-end model
  • I know sedans have better driving dynamics, I am not a cross-country driver who needs lots of cargo space
  • I am not overly concerned with sound insulation if I have to pay $20,000 more to move up a higher-end model

Heck if the IS was $10k more and had all the things I want (say improved NVH and massage seats), I probably would be willing to pay for it. Still , that's $10k savings from not buying the bigger and more expensive model.
 

mikeavelli

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Pulling over from the other IS thread and updating slightly: My prediction for USA:

- Same car, heavy refresh with new bumpers, exterior lighting and an updated interior a la 2014 LS 460
- 2.0T 8AR-FTS on all models (carryover) "IS 300"
- 2GR-FKS V6 available only on the F Sport model "IS 350 F-Sport"
- New infotainment (Carplay, AA, Alexa) as part of the interior refresh
- Latest Lexus safety systems added
- Some suspension changes so they can claim it's the best driver's car in the segment as teased in their announcement this morning
- Some new colors and new wheels
/end scene

I would be shocked no hybrid
 

asoksevil

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Canceled GS and IS not being sold in Europe. This is really disappointing news, the entry level sedan is now going to be the ES. Bearing in mind that in many European countries the ES is roughly EUR 10k more than IS making it roughly 40-45k. Besides, the ES is not a substitute to the IS, not in the same prince range, not in the same class size nor even in the same "soul" (IS being the sporty drive and ES the comfy one).

I think Lexus is really leaving money on the table with this move so hopefully they will be going to Europe as I am not sure they can push the 100k-120k sales a year they forecasted based on a SUV drive alone.
 

Rydo

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in Rome, I see so many UX driving and parked every where

It's funny you should say that. I always feel that mainland Europe is not remotely interested in Japanese cars. The number of Hondas I see in Spain for instance is utterly pitiful compared to the UK. Same for Toyota and Lexus. I think that the European countries, most having their own automaker, are propaganda'd into purchasing the vehicles assembled or developed in their homelands. Vauxhall try to do something similar to people in the UK, but we all know that the Vauxhall plant is just an assembly line and nothing more.

I visited Lexus of Murcia in Spain about 2 years ago. They had a couple of UXs outside and an LC inside waiting for its new owner. The dealer let me look at the LC and informed me that there was less than 100 coming to all of Spain for the year.

Back to IS, I can see all those people stating why its the best car for them. The trouble is, that they are now few and far between sadly. It's like the small, econo personal coupe market. 20 years ago could could buy a Civic Coupe or Accord Coupe in the UK along with lots of similar small vehicles like the Vauxhall Tigra, Ford Puma. Sadly the buyers of these cars dried up and the industry canned them.

Anyway, not long now until we see what the rest of the world is getting - a mild facelift or an extensive rework?
 

spwolf

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It's funny you should say that. I always feel that mainland Europe is not remotely interested in Japanese cars. The number of Hondas I see in Spain for instance is utterly pitiful compared to the UK. Same for Toyota and Lexus. I think that the European countries, most having their own automaker, are propaganda'd into purchasing the vehicles assembled or developed in their homelands. Vauxhall try to do something similar to people in the UK, but we all know that the Vauxhall plant is just an assembly line and nothing more.

I visited Lexus of Murcia in Spain about 2 years ago. They had a couple of UXs outside and an LC inside waiting for its new owner. The dealer let me look at the LC and informed me that there was less than 100 coming to all of Spain for the year.

Back to IS, I can see all those people stating why its the best car for them. The trouble is, that they are now few and far between sadly. It's like the small, econo personal coupe market. 20 years ago could could buy a Civic Coupe or Accord Coupe in the UK along with lots of similar small vehicles like the Vauxhall Tigra, Ford Puma. Sadly the buyers of these cars dried up and the industry canned them.

Anyway, not long now until we see what the rest of the world is getting - a mild facelift or an extensive rework?

I would not confuse Honda with Toyota, there is quite a difference when it comes to presence and sales in EU.
Toyota sold over 1 million cars in Europe in 2019, while Honda got outsold by Mazda.
 

spwolf

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EU emission law was in 2012 and started enforcing since 2015. But got REALLY punitive this year starting Jan 1,2020
.

I am quoting from different thread as answer is more appropriate here.

In 2021, for average fleet emissions over 95g/100km, manufacturer will pay 95€ per g per vehicle.

IS300h has WLTP CO2 emissions of 133-144g. So lets say they bring this down to 125g/100km for 2021 model, that would be 30g/100km over minimum fleet average.

That basically means that Lexus would have to pay extra $3200 in penalties for each new IS300h sold in Europe from 2021.

Now yes, UX300e and NX450h will bring this average down, but I am sure they will want to use those "credits" for much more profitable vehicles such as RX450h and NX300h.
 

CRSKTN

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Can we start an emissions thread?

I'm not being sassy, it is legitimately interesting, I just think people are antsy and the notifications got people jumpin.
 

carguy420

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The emissions thing is such bs the way it is done (thinking of PHEV V8 cars). And leasing triples production emissions if consumers change car every 3/4 years instead of 10 years, so quite hypocritical to talk about emissions.
Hypocritical... isn't that how the EU rolls? Coming up with stuff like "pedestrian safety regulations" which screwed up the design of most regular cars with that high bonnet line because apparently some people are so dumb that we need cars that will "cushion" the dumbasses that are crossing the road without looking, or coming up with emissions and fuel economy test that can be easily exploited.