2021+ 3rd Generation Lexus IS (300, 350, 500) Megathread

[Gecko]

Once again, back to the IS.

 

[spwolf]

Think about a lineup of ES, LS, UX, NX, RX, GX, LX and LC. Think think about Acura and Infiniti, who are also down to one or two sedans. Something about Japanese culture has fundamentally ruined their luxury brands, and I can't quite put my finger on it. Conservatism? Lack of willingness to take risk? Gun shy after the 2009 financial collapse and then the 2011 tsunamis? Acura and Infiniti never got off the ground like Lexus, so seeing them fall and struggle hasn't been as bad, but Lexus' fall is both hard to watch and understand after such incredible success in the 90s and early 00s.

Yes, they're expanding globally and selling more cars than they were before for that reason, but it's clear there is no direction, no plan, no sense of identity and no appreciation for what made them great in the first place.

Are you judging Lexus success by success of GS?

Both GS and IS were given a lot of support in the first few years. That is why you have so many powertrain options in IS. They are even giving it a big facelift in the late years.

As to the SC, I don't think that is a good point as LC is better vehicle than SC ever was.
As to the willingness to take risk? I think LS and LC were big risks for them, especially doing them before LF-1.

I dont think IS will die, otherwise they would just cancel it. Europe is specific because CAFE regulations are going to hit luxury manufacturers hard there and new IS is going to drag it down without plugin hybrid that they probably cant do easily on its current platform.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Once again, back to the IS.

Yes, please!

 

[Gecko]

Are you judging Lexus success by success of GS?

Not at all, but you have to wonder what Lexus' plan is to cultivate younger buyers who would have previously connected with something like the IS or GS. I have been pretty vocal in saying that I think the next gen ES can easily fill the midsize spot if they bring a performance AWD model and trick tech like the e-axle and/or batteries. Nobody will miss the GS when that happens.

... but where is the aspirational product?

A lot of the legacy base of Lexus enthusiasts came in from IS, GS and SC (and to a lesser extent, the RC). What does Lexus have to appeal to the buyer who is young and affluent? Also consider trickle down impacts for used buyers who want to ultimately move up to something new in the future. UX and NX are not those products, and it will take a very different type of ES to replace the GS and/or IS as an aspirational product. Nobody is really dying to own FWD Toyota-based products.

The business case is important, shifting buyer tastes can't be ignored, and the economy has to be considered, but it's feeling to me like the emotional products that pull in buyers and move them up through the brand are going away.

... and I think there's a way to fix that. We've talked a lot here about how to integrate and even name the LF-1 when the production model is launched. Let's take that formula and look at how to broaden the appeal, because we know it's going to be successful. If the future really is driven by crossovers, let's double down, take GA-N and GA-L and do something like this:

• LSX (LS Utility Vehicle): Production LF-1 with two rows and a small third row. This is Lexus' flagship crossover vehicle, the best of everything.
• GSX (GS Utility Vehicle): LF-1 but scaled slightly down to be midsize. Two rows only. A GS-ized performance crossover. A Cayenne competitor.
• ISX (IS Utility Vehicle): Lexus' answer to the Macan, built on GA-N. An IS-ized performance crossover.

All are ultra dramatic, form over function and built to straddle the line between sedan and SUV, but look good while doing it (that's not something BMW and Mercedes have been able to do so far).

This formula would:
1) Create aspirational, accessible products that respond to current market trends
2) Somewhat preserve longstanding names that have a lot of equity - IS and GS
3) Free up the NX and RX to remain dedicated people movers with lots of usable space
4) Spread the magic of the LS and LC down the lineup, which is something that has been lost
5) Finally create an open door for F SUVs

 

[spwolf]

Not at all, but you have to wonder what Lexus' plan is to cultivate younger buyers who would have previously connected with something like the IS or GS. I have been pretty vocal in saying that I think the next gen ES can easily fill the midsize spot if they bring a performance AWD model and trick tech like the e-axle and/or batteries. Nobody will miss the GS when that happens.

... but where is the aspirational product?

I think you hit nail on the head - however I would add that GS was likely never a product to cultivate young buyers, hence they did not fight for it like they are for IS. IS is likely going to live for another decade because of type of young buyer it is bringing.

Now this is likely due to the our background, but statistically cars like CT and UX are the ones that are touching young buyers, not GS.

SC was also never aspirational product, but LC certainly is.

 

[Gecko]

I think you hit nail on the head - however I would add that GS was likely never a product to cultivate young buyers, hence they did not fight for it like they are for IS. IS is likely going to live for another decade because of type of young buyer it is bringing.

Now this is likely due to the our background, but statistically cars like CT and UX are the ones that are touching young buyers, not GS.

SC was also never aspirational product, but LC certainly is.

I think we have some regional differences between USA and EU. Here, 2GS, 1IS, 2IS, 1SC and 2SC were most definitely aspirational, enthusiast products. When I used to go to Lexus meets, those would be the only vehicles in attendance. Those were the vehicles that people in their 20s and early 30s talked about getting once they made more money, were promoted or would buy when they could... and they were definitely lusted over in the used market. Those people turned into GX and LS buyers as time went on -- and many have since gone German. CT and UX are definitely more attainable, but I've never heard someone say they look forward to owning one.

 

[OlFius]

Europe is specific because CAFE regulations are going to hit luxury manufacturers hard there and new IS is going to drag it down without plugin hybrid that they probably cant do easily on its current platform.

I don't think Toyota/Lexus has a plug-in version, but they are still on the European market.
So, I don't think that argument is valid.
Beside, those European rules are not just out of the blue, as @Gecko has previously indicated, they could have prepared for this for years.
Is just a conscious choice, whether it is the right one, that was different.

 

[CRSKTN]

Let's also be honest here. Realistically, if it can drive well, get better mileage, that's great and a hurdle they should hit to be competitive at the least. They have the first one, and have no reason not to deliver at least with a hybrid on the second.

If they have redirected platform R&D in a way that lets them splurge on say, the interior, without sacrificing return on capital, that could meaningfully set the vehicle apart from the competition. I am not an automotive engineer to say how much of the pie goes towards things that make car enthusiasts and reviewers who don't matter (us) happy vs the stuff that makes the filthy, degenerate unwashed masses (regular, normal people) happy. Is there really a lot of room for meaningful development in things like vehicle suspension these days? How good does something really need to ride? Can anyone comment on this? Can they pull down the "suspension fine tuning" slider and increase the "look at this ****" slider?

Who is to say that a lot of platform development was driven to satisfy their PR/IR side of things, naturally assuming it would translate to more sales. And then everyone is driving around in leased or preowned 318is before turning them in for a new FWD BMW crossover.

In reality, if you used the same old IS platform, but made it look extremely avant garde, and give it an LC like interior, I just don't see how you could then walk across the street and go for something that doesn't wow like that. I mean, let's just think in the most shallow way about this, how much of social media is photos/video of people in their cars? A hell of a lot more than of people taking curves in the mountains.

Wasn't that one of the big complaints of the 8/M8? It was just like a giant M4 on steroids? They just sell you "more" BMW interior and enlarge the car to fit it all. That's what i heard anyways, but i personally was hoping for an M1 anyways.

Give people what they want, reasonable running/maintenance costs for efficient people, image and status for the shallow, and quality of execution where it counts (e.g. interior and UI/UX).

I mean, hasn't the insane design of the new genesis done big things for it? People are very visual and first impression based. There have been studies done that going with your gut on selecting from options will on average give you higher satisfaction in the long run (i believe). Something to do with posters.

Give them the "wow", give them service that makes them feel good about ownership, offer them ways to afford it, and keep an ear to the ground to see if anyone has any comments with regards to ride quality.

I would hope that aside from the F cars, if you just sort of went "soft" for certain models, you could get away with less advanced suspension?
Is that completely ignorant?

 

[joepac]

New TLX, New IS, New 4 series and new C class all upcoming. Lexus better try to compete. New Z is already being predicted to give Supra a run for its money.

Interesting times.

Agreed but Nissan may not be around much longer and may not get a chance to release that Z within their 4 year time-line. Oops sorry again off topic! 🤦‍♂️ DOH! Squirrel! 😂

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Let's also be honest here. Realistically, if it can drive well, get better mileage, that's great and a hurdle they should hit to be competitive at the least. They have the first one, and have no reason not to deliver at least with a hybrid on the second.

If they have redirected platform R&D in a way that lets them splurge on say, the interior, without sacrificing return on capital, that could meaningfully set the vehicle apart from the competition. I am not an automotive engineer to say how much of the pie goes towards things that make car enthusiasts and reviewers who don't matter (us) happy vs the stuff that makes the filthy, degenerate unwashed masses (regular, normal people) happy. Is there really a lot of room for meaningful development in things like vehicle suspension these days? How good does something really need to ride? Can anyone comment on this? Can they pull down the "suspension fine tuning" slider and increase the "look at this ****" slider?

Who is to say that a lot of platform development was driven to satisfy their PR/IR side of things, naturally assuming it would translate to more sales. And then everyone is driving around in leased or preowned 318is before turning them in for a new FWD BMW crossover.

In reality, if you used the same old IS platform, but made it look extremely avant garde, and give it an LC like interior, I just don't see how you could then walk across the street and go for something that doesn't wow like that. I mean, let's just think in the most shallow way about this, how much of social media is photos/video of people in their cars? A hell of a lot more than of people taking curves in the mountains.

Wasn't that one of the big complaints of the 8/M8? It was just like a giant M4 on steroids? They just sell you "more" BMW interior and enlarge the car to fit it all. That's what i heard anyways, but i personally was hoping for an M1 anyways.

Give people what they want, reasonable running/maintenance costs for efficient people, image and status for the shallow, and quality of execution where it counts (e.g. interior and UI/UX).

I mean, hasn't the insane design of the new genesis done big things for it? People are very visual and first impression based. There have been studies done that going with your gut on selecting from options will on average give you higher satisfaction in the long run (i believe). Something to do with posters.

Give them the "wow", give them service that makes them feel good about ownership, offer them ways to afford it, and keep an ear to the ground to see if anyone has any comments with regards to ride quality.

I would hope that aside from the F cars, if you just sort of went "soft" for certain models, you could get away with less advanced suspension?
Is that completely ignorant?

I have to say this is a really good take on things. Here's hoping Lexus went in that direction for the IS.

 

[Rydo]

CT and UX are definitely more attainable, but I've never heard someone say they look forward to owning one.

That's because they are entry level products? 😅

There is certainly a ridiculously huge difference in USA and EU trends for cars - something that doesn't come as a shock.

Whilst the SUV trend has totally transcended from the States to Europe, and honestly I see more and more pickups all the time here too, there has almost never been a solid market for hatchbacks in the USA. This is something that is evident in Mercedes' reluctance to sell the A-Class there and Audi's to sell the A1 and A3.

But let me tell you something, Lexus is utterly destroying their ability to grab customers for life in Europe right now. This has been blunted by the UX release, and I see more and more of these all the time, but the CT if done properly could be a smash SMASH hit.

I know I'm on a merry-go-round of the same point in this respect, as I've mentioned it umpteen times on the forum, but the Audi RS3 at the moment is the ultimate 20-something lust car. Here, if you are that young-guy who is the gym-goer and always wears the latest Nike shoes etc, the RS3 (and to a lesser extent the A3 generally) is THE car to have. Audi in general are viewed as THE carmaker to aspire to own. And why not? You look at their cars, and they are dripping with the latest tech - there is no compromise and there is no 'it's just a shame that it doesn't' moment - they have everything. When you look at their lineup, they have something for everyone, including the wildly popular Q7 and now Q8 - a segment that Lexus don't even bother to contend with in Europe. Yeah, that exploding SUV market, Lexus don't bother with the LX or GX for in Europe. And another thing Audi have going for them is ridiculous power. Almost every model has an S and RS variant, with mind boggling numbers.

Now, a part of me thinks, Audi has all the tech, Audi has all the numbers and Audi has all the 'rep'. But at the same time, we know that turbocharged overly powerful-per-litre engines are not reliable. They won't go to 150k miles without issue. We know that the tech is also full of gremlins that can crop up.

I just feel that in Europe, Lexus hasn't really ever cracked it because they don't even try and compete in these sorts of fields to show they truly are a match for the Germans. There is no Q7 rival. The CT is embarrassing next to an RS3, and poor next to the regular A3. There is no performance version of the UX, despite that being a ridiculous thing, to show us 'Hey, we're just as crazy as Audi to make an RS version of this car that really doesn't need an RS version'.

Getting back to the IS. I have the agree that taking it off of market seems to signal the death of the vehicle. Honda killed the Accord in Europe a good number of years ago now, and there have been no signs of it returning. To think the Accord would die in the mid 2000s was unthinkable. And now it's just gone. Maybe the same is true for the IS. This is a vehicle that when looking for a used Lexus, is by far and away the most common car out there - yet it is now appearing to be dead.

I'd like to think that it will return as a Model 3 competitor - but how ridiculously unorganised and haphazard does that look for a car to disappear and then return a few years later - it just smacks of amateur-hour planning and development.

EDIT: I'd love to own a UX, but like every new car they are cripplingly expensive. I think they hit the ball out of the park with the interior space on it especially in Takumi trim, and the proportions are like a little rugged truck especially at the rear which looks excellent. I'd also love a CT if it looked like the LF-30 and had an LC/LS/UX style interior with the updated gauge cluster binnacle layout (the frankenstein switches). I'd maybe even push myself to buy a brand new car for the first time in my life if it was that good!

 

[spwolf]

I don't think Toyota/Lexus has a plug-in version, but they are still on the European market.
So, I don't think that argument is valid.
Beside, those European rules are not just out of the blue, as @Gecko has previously indicated, they could have prepared for this for years.
Is just a conscious choice, whether it is the right one, that was different.

What I meant was that new-n platform might not be able to be engineered for plugin.

With their hybrids, TMME leads European market with lowest CO2 numbers... but minimums are getting lower and lower every few years, and to achieve next step, especially with real WLTP (only for new cars), they will need more plugins and BEVs. That is why UX300e exists, and I assume that is why they will bring NX450h or whatever they end up calling plugin version of NX.

This updated new IS300h would probably get somewhere around >130g CO2/100km with full WLTP standard, and I think minimum is going to be around 95g/100km for fleet average (or else you have to pay). So they will likely save that for more profitable product such as NX300h, RX300h, LS/LC/etc. This is why V8 and regular 6cly/8cly petrol/diesel/non-hybrid options are disappearing from EU market.

For brand new cars they calculate full WLTP, old cars get some kind of combo of WLTP/NEDC that is much easier on CO2 numbers.

 

[ssun30]

I've commented numerous times that the IS could be a very successful gateway vehicle for young buyers in China. It's evident from people's reactions in dealerships. Young especially female buyers are automatically attracted to its sporty looks and compact dimensions, only to be disappointed by its poor interior space and unaccessible price. Those people just don't want to buy the ES because of the stereotype.
One way Lexus could have kept the IS line alive is developing an IS-L family for ChDM. This way they could justify keeping it for other markets as well, since the cost could be lower overall. Instead they just tell potential buyers "get the UX/NX instead", alienating a considerable amount of Chinese buyers who still favor sedans over SUVs.
If customers don't want your sedans, they turn their back away and walk to the neighbor, not stay and let you sell them a SUV. How is Lexus not realizing that?
The compact sedan market is a very important battleground for all luxury brands here. BBA, Cadillac, and Volvo are investing heavily into these products to fight for market share, while Lexus is now running away from it and betting all hope on the UX. Cadillac's CT4 campaign has seen some success and I hope they can show the middle finger to Lexus with sales figures.
Why I say this is important? As Income continues to grow, urban Chinese families are increasingly adding a second car. And this second car market mostly caters to females, who don't want a SUV. Missing the bigger market trend could be a mistake for Lexus. It's almost like they don't do market research and rely solely on dealers to ask them for a specific model.

 

[internalaudit]

How much is the IS in China? Imports are typically levied with high duties, correct? Do affluent families have drivers shuffling them around town, like they do say in the Philippines? Could that be one reason they want the stretched wheelbase because they sit at the back while someone drives the car?

I think some cheaper local brands can be had for $10k USD, if not slightly less?

In Canada, the base IS is priced at $42k, which is a reasonable price for a RWD luxury vehicle with good performance and handling dynamics. Like others have said, the ultra-long production life cycle (lack of CP/AA), poorer fuel economy and lower HP against its competitors are probably the key pet peeves.

I believe Acura is going to take some market share in the segment with the base 2TLX starting in the low $40's here. Then a smaller Acura comes out in 2022.

I'm not sure about the IS being small but it surely can fit a family of four but I guess in China, some affluents one now may be thinking of having more than two children.

 

[ssun30]

How much is the IS in China? Imports are typically levied with high duties, correct? Do affluent families have drivers shuffling them around town, like they do say in the Philippines? Could that be one reason they want the stretched wheelbase because they sit at the back while someone drives the car?

No, families don't hire chauffeurs. In fact even the business people generally don't hire dedicated chauffeurs anymore, they just use their aide. The LWB is a cultural thing: like Americans, we like everything big in order to impress other people (google "Mianzi culture"). Because the number of cars per capita is low and parking spots are hard to find, the second row is more likely to be used to transport relatives or friends.

The IS300 costs between ￥300k (US$42k) to 410k (US$58k) MSRP, but the discount on these are usually 10-20%. So they are about same price as locally produced BBA models (Cadillac CT4 is considerably cheaper though).

 

[internalaudit]

So not as expensive as luxury cars in Taiwan.

Totally understand that culture haha. People in the Far East a lot more brand conscious nowadays, especially the third generation of affluent families or the nouveau riche (no derogatory intention).

 

[shizhi]

If you think that buying a second family car requires a long wheelbase, it's a strange feeling. In the first car, you can meet the needs of the riding space. In fact, the second car doesn't need a long wheelbase. What can be only explained is that Chinese consumers are used to the long wheelbase from BBA, and they still think the bigger the better, even if it's the second / third car.

 

[suxeL]

Neat find, the rollout team at Lexus is going to new lengths with the IS. A lot of dealers seem to have placed Launch tickers for the IS on their homepages.

 

[Levi]

Given all if not most smartphones are made in China (including Apple), that explains why there are no smartphones with screens under 5 inches.

 

[CRSKTN]

The moment I see the Audi, "gym, tan, laundry, lease", latest sneakers but actually broke cohort start clogging up my local Lexus dealership is the moment I start budgeting for a higher end brand.

Sorry, not sorry. I cant think of anyone who views the current batch of Audi drivers as anything but insufferable (not the older drivers) where I am. It's literally the "this car is my life and my social media handle" brand right now. Why would Lexus care about appealing to that group?

No thanks.