16th Generation Toyota Crown (Sedan, Cross, Sport, Estate/Signia)

[ssun30]

So here is a comparison between the Crown sedan and Crown "crossover" (which will be representative of what the next ES will be like).

Crown sedan:
Exterior dimensions: 5030 x 1890 x 1475, 3000 mm (LxWxH, WB)
Interior dimensions: 1970 x 1595 x 1135 mm
Weight: 2020 kg
2.5L multistage hybrid: 245PS. 18.0km/L WLTC

Crown sedan (S220):
Exterior dimensions: 4910 x 1800 x 1455, 2920 mm
Interior dimensions: 1955 x 1500 x 1185 mm
Weight: 1770 kg(2.5)/1870kg(3.5)
2.5L singlestage hybrid: 230PS, 20.0km/L WLTC
3.5L multistage hybrid: 359PS, 16.0km/L WLTC

Crown crossover:
Exterior dimensions: 4930 x 1840 x 1540, 2850 mm
Interior dimensions: 1980 x 1540 x 1170 mm
Weight: 1750 kg(hybrid)/1900kg (hybrid max)
2.5L singlestage hybrid: 230PS, 22.4km/L WLTC
2.4L turbo hybrid: 340PS, 15.7km/L WLTC
And let's not forget both hybrids are AWD.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out just how bad the new sedan is. For a 80mm wheelbase stretch and 250kg more weight we get 1.5 cm (less than an inch!) of extra cabin space. And now it's also a widebody and has a larger turning radius so it's even less suitable for Japanese roads than the S220.

I've said many times we need to keep our expectations low, because there is no new RWD platform from Toyota that addresses all the problems with GA-L. The hypothetical ES500h will mop the floor with this Crown.

You can download the web catalogue for the new Crown sedan here to checkout detailed feature and spec sheet:

https://toyota.jp/pages/contents/request/webcatalog/crown/crown_main_202311.pdf

 

[Ali Manai]

So here is a comparison between the Crown sedan and Crown "crossover" (which will be representative of what the next ES will be like).

Crown sedan:
Exterior dimensions: 5030 x 1890 x 1475, 3000 mm (LxWxH, WB)
Interior dimensions: 1970 x 1595 x 1135 mm
Weight: 2020 kg
2.5L multistage hybrid: 245PS. 18.0km/L WLTC

Crown sedan (S220):
Exterior dimensions: 4910 x 1800 x 1455, 2920 mm
Interior dimensions: 1955 x 1500 x 1185 mm
Weight: 1770 kg(2.5)/1870kg(3.5)
2.5L singlestage hybrid: 230PS, 20.0km/L WLTC
3.5L multistage hybrid: 359PS, 16.0km/L WLTC

Crown crossover:
Exterior dimensions: 4930 x 1840 x 1540, 2850 mm
Interior dimensions: 1980 x 1540 x 1170 mm
Weight: 1750 kg(hybrid)/1900kg (hybrid max)
2.5L singlestage hybrid: 230PS, 22.4km/L WLTC
2.4L turbo hybrid: 340PS, 15.7km/L WLTC
And let's not forget both hybrids are AWD.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out just how bad the new sedan is. For a 80mm wheelbase stretch and 250kg more weight we get 1.5 cm (less than an inch!) of extra cabin space. And now it's also a widebody and has a larger turning radius so it's even less suitable for Japanese roads than the S220.

I've said many times we need to keep our expectations low, because there is no new RWD platform from Toyota that addresses all the problems with GA-L. The hypothetical ES500h will mop the floor with this Crown.

You can download the web catalogue for the new Crown sedan here to checkout detailed feature and spec sheet:

https://toyota.jp/pages/contents/request/webcatalog/crown/crown_main_202311.pdf

Even with the higher exterior heigh it has lower interior height but still from the previous Japanese videos people felt the sedan had more headroom than the crossover but that could be due to sedan having a sloping roof further back rather than right over the backseat so that could be it

 

[Heicho]

And now it's also a widebody

Maybe they’ll send it to other markets?

no new RWD platform from Toyota that addresses all the problems with GA-L

GA-F an updated GA-L platform and the new BEV skateboard platform are on the way

The hypothetical ES500h will mop the floor with this Crown

until Toyota decides to make a GR Crown sedan 😂

 

[Ali Manai]

until Toyota decides to make a GR Crown sedan 😂

Or the global version have more options

 

[ssun30]

GA-F an updated GA-L platform and the new BEV skateboard platform are on the way

No there is not. The upcoming sports cars will have a different platform and it will not be used to make any sedan or SUVs.

The Toyota/Lexus RWD sedan dream is dead period.

 

[Heicho]

No there is not. The upcoming sports cars will have a different platform and it will not be used to make any sedan or SUVs.

The Toyota/Lexus RWD sedan dream is dead period.

Which kinda platform? BestCar’s reporting it’s an updated GA-L. And what’s keeping them from using it for other cars? Besides, RWD will still live in BEVs.

 

[Ali Manai]

Rear wheel drive cars are usually heavier than their fwd counterparts plus the crown is right their with the germans in terms of weight although not exactly because it's not an apples to apples comparison as germans use a mild hybrid system which is generally lighter than ths so they are about 100 ksg lighter than crown on the other hand they have phevs which are about 100 kgs heavier than the crown so it's right in the middle so there is that

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Which kinda platform? BestCar’s reporting it’s an updated GA-L. And what’s keeping them from using it for other cars? Besides, RWD will still live in BEVs.

It's supposed to be dubbed as the TNGA-A. Multiple Toyota and Lexus enthusiast cars are purported to ride on that platform. It remains to be seen though.

 

[Gor134]

Outside of perference for RWD vs FWD, looking at Crown Sedan vs. ES is a great study in how good GA-K is and how compromised GA-L is... namely across weight, packaging and space efficiency.

ESh "only" weighs 3,700lbs and has "only" 215hp but with electric motors, so it is significantly lighter and also more powerful than Crown. Not to mention much more space everywhere.

I don't think that's fair.

ESh is on the older TNGA-K platform. The Crown Hybrid weighs more and I'm willing to bet the next ES on TNGA-K II will also rise to 4,000lbs and more.

 

[Gecko]

I am sure with AWD the next ES will weigh more, but as it stands now, the same reasons the ES killed the GS seem to be taking shape (at least on paper, in the US market where it likely won't be coming) with the Crown Sedan.

 

[NomadDan]

If the rumored 3.0 I6 in the next Supra comes to fruition, the Crown Sedan would be a good candidate for it as well (maybe in a detuned version).

If the Crown Sedan comes to the US, Toyota should offer the T24 at the very least.

 

[carguy420]

Speaking of the powertrains being kinda meh, I feel like with TMC's current and future plans, if you want a regular new Toyota model with a decent engine under the hood, you can forget about it and move on to other brands. All of their cars that will get the good engines and powertrain tuning are going to be a select few 'special' models and their GR cars, while their regular cars will only be available with a bunch of low effort, basic a$$ fleet car grade engines, kinda sounds like they are backtracking a bit on their promise of “no more boring cars”. Looking at their current sales getting stronger and stronger, don't ever expect them to revert to their engine's golden days way of doing things.

And the GA-L platform continues to disappoint, their previous RWD platforms plus some significant updates and improvements done to them seems like it would be in theory a far less compromised solution than GA-L, it makes no sense how Toyota screw up the packaging and space efficiency of GA-L so badly, I know some of their less interior space focused models became a bit less spacious on the inside when they switched over to the other TNGA platforms, but none of them downgraded quite nearly as bad as GA-L in terms of space efficiency.

 

[qtb007]

Speaking of the powertrains being kinda meh, I feel like with TMC's current and future plans, if you want a regular new Toyota model with a decent engine under the hood, you can forget about it and move on to other brands. All of their cars that will get the good engines and powertrain tuning are going to be a select few 'special' models and their GR cars, while their regular cars will only be available with a bunch of low effort, basic a$$ fleet car grade engines, kinda sounds like they are backtracking a bit on their promise of “no more boring cars”. Looking at their current sales getting stronger and stronger, don't ever expect them to revert to their engine's golden days way of doing things.

Care to give examples of regular Toyotas that got "golden days" engines? Are you just talking when Toyota shoved a 2GR in everything or some other era?

 

[Ali Manai]

Care to give examples of regular Toyotas that got "golden days" engines? Are you just talking when Toyota shoved a 2GR in everything or some other era?

That 2 gr is a venerable engine the a25 not so much

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Care to give examples of regular Toyotas that got "golden days" engines? Are you just talking when Toyota shoved a 2GR in everything or some other era?

The 2GR was very powerful in its day and had a sweet sound. I'd remember watching races where you had Camrys gapping BMW 5-Series' and Mercedes E-Classes.

 

[Levi]

The 2GR was very powerful in its day and had a sweet sound. I'd remember watching races where you had Camrys gapping BMW 5-Series' and Mercedes E-Classes.

Until they went with turbo 4, 6 and 8. Since then TMC always behind.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Until they went with turbo 4, 6 and 8. Since then TMC always behind.

Yup, that's very true. :^(

2GR was able to beat early turbo six-cylinders from the Germans but later on it could only best the turbo 4-cylinders. How far we've fallen.

 

[carguy420]

Yup, that's very true. :^(

2GR was able to beat early turbo six-cylinders from the Germans but later on it could only best the turbo 4-cylinders. How far we've fallen.

Now I understand why Toyota is so willing to become partners with Subaru lol 🙃. Underperforming engines unite!

 

[Ali Manai]

The t24 is actually a very good engine but then toyota decides not to put it in it's flagship vehicle rather going with the a25 but then again if toyota gave both engine choices the a25 would just outsell the t24.

Anyway the demand for the sedan is very strong according to japanese media people loved it but due to lower allocations dealers are telling customers to go for sport or crossover but many are adamant they want this lets see how much of a success this is

 

[bogglo]

I understand the disappointment in the engine choice for the sedan as it is now. but its hard to believe it will only keep a single engine choice. I expect it to get at least the RX FSP/ Crown crossover setup eventually.