Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,995
Reactions
12,097
Might just be how I'm reading it, but I feel like @CRSKTN and @internalaudit are saying the same things: There has to be a stronger case to buy a Lexus because platform engineered products with parts bin powertrains aren't really cutting it for people who want real luxury products. The mainstream brands are better at that than ever -- the case for a TX over a Grand Highlander, or an RXh over a Crown Signia is much narrower than it used to be.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,646
Reactions
8,045
Lower end Lexus products are overpriced and don't differentiate enough from mainstream products.

That is a fact.

The Chinese market is the true test by fire because it's the closest to a perfectly competitive market. Price premium from brand image alone is very hard to obtain and most products need to compete on merit. Not just BEVs, but ICEVs as well. And we know how badly Lexus is doing recently.

A very interesting phenomenon there is despite very high displacement taxes and strict fuel efficiency standards, consumers refuse to pay for downsized engines with fewer cylinders. This has forced manufacturers to build low displacement per cylinder engines such as Mercedes 1.3T I4 and 2.5T I6 (a ChDM exclusive). Part of the reason Toyota had to go back to I4 for the 1.5L is the very strong resistance to I3 engines in China (almost every manufacturer who tried to replace I4 with I3 have reversed course).

A very compact turbo V6 in the 2.5~2.7L range can make transverse platform Lexus cars a lot more desirable. The only brand offering a similar engine is Ford. I would consider buying a RX if such an option is offered.
 

qtb007

Admirer
Messages
537
Reactions
816
Anyone else think Honda is going to be taking more ICEV/HEV market share (not necessarily from Toyota)? Was told in Japan, eAWD hybrids already ply the roads there.

As much as I'd like to consider a UX300h, unless used, a Civic hybrid e-AWD may be more compelling. Hoping Lexus innovates and comes up with really great hybrid vehicles, over and beyond the e-AWD variants that we know are nothing but traction aids at some speed.

How powerful is the rear motor on an eAWD Civic? I honestly don't see anything in that link saying what they are doing regarding the power of the rear motor. I can't find anything about the rear motor power of the CRV, either, but based on the power ratings of the transaxle motor and the system power, I doubt they are earth shatteringly high.

The UX, for example, jumped from a 7hp to a 41hp rear motor from the 250h to the 300h. At 30mph, that's over 5x more road force than the old system could provide. From a daily driver perspective, I absolutely feel the rear motor pushing the car and impacting the overall vehicle dynamics. The RX500h and Grand Highlander have ~100hp rear motors that definitely are definitely contributing (expecially from a passing maneuver). This transition to more dynamic rear drive is already happening.
 
Last edited:

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,646
Reactions
8,045
They keep saying an Inline-6 won't fit in the F2 platform. Is that claim really true? The chief engineer said the main reason is E-KDSS packaging. And it seems any layout longer than a V6 will interfere with the E-KDSS struts. Has anyone with the OT checked how tight the packaging is with E-KDSS?

Mazda had to recess the engine into the cabin making spark plug change impossible without removing the engine. Mercedes built the M256 without belt-drive auxiliaries and run everything electrically to make it shorter. And BMW's solution is just a really long nose. The Volvo SI6 is the most compact but they had to develop a very complex READ system which sits above the transmission, but will be impossible to service in a longitudinal application.
GXP5003.jpg
It seems the V35 could indeed be a bit tight. If you stretch it by about 50% (I6) it won't fit.
GXP5015.jpg
The GX550h I4 version is almost FMR. GXP5014.jpg
 
Last edited:

NomadDan

Follower
Messages
373
Reactions
464
Those images are interesting. I would expect the T24A to have a longer block since it's inline 4 vs the V35A V6. It looks like the image of the V35A has the fan and intake/intercooler plumbing included, but the T24A image does not. Maybe that's throwing me off? The T24A image makes it look like there's room for a 50% longer block, but like you say, the V35A image looks very tight.

I was pretty surprised when I saw how far back the T24A sits in the LC250. It seems The whole drivetrain, dash, and front seats sit further back in the F2 platform than previous generations. Neither the 4Runner or Tacoma have gained much interior space despite both having longer wheelbases than previous models. Why this is, I don't know. I assume it has something to do with crash regulations, but the set back drivetrain seems excessive.

Inline-6 engines used to be the go-to configuration for Land Cruisers, both for diesel and petrol engines. Here's a 100 series with a turbo 4.5L inline-6 in a IFS vehicle with sway bars.

I know we have stricter crash regulations now, but I still find it hard to believe Toyota can't figure out how to put an inline-6 in a BOF vehicle. The E-KDSS comment by the engineer just sounds like an excuse. It's not like inline-6 engines with sway bars haven't existed in the past. That first image shows the sway bar way in front of the engine.

The Ineos Grenadier uses the B58 petrol engine or B57 diesel engine. Here's a picture of the diesel engine bay. The engine is shoved up under the cowl a bit, but it doesn't seem much worse than the LC250 T24A.

7819680-1f7710204a6a551c465bae8029e166d7.jpg


If Lexus can cram a 2JZ in an IS300, they ought to be able to put an I-6 in a GX.
 
Last edited:

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,646
Reactions
8,045
The Ineos Grenadier uses the B58 petrol engine or B57 diesel engine. Here's a picture of the diesel engine bay. The engine is shoved up under the cowl a bit, but it doesn't seem much worse than the LC250 T24A.

If Lexus can cram a 2JZ in an IS300, they ought to be able to put an I-6 in a GX.
The B58 has rear-mounted timing chain and VANOS solenoids so they can "steal" some length by hanging them above the transmission (not unlike Volvo's concept). This would be unacceptable for Toyota since the Land Cruisers must be easy to service.
Those images are interesting. I would expect the T24A to have a longer block since it's inline 4 vs the V35A V6. It looks like the image of the V35A has the fan and intake/intercooler plumbing included, but the T24A image does not. Maybe that's throwing me off? The T24A image makes it look like there's room for a 50% longer block, but like you say, the V35A image looks very tight.
The Type 21 V35 uses belt driven fans while the T24 uses electric fans. That's why you don't see the fan on the engine.
 
Last edited:

internalaudit

Expert
Messages
1,195
Reactions
1,175
How powerful is the rear motor on an eAWD Civic? I honestly don't see anything in that link saying what they are doing regarding the power of the rear motor. I can't find anything about the rear motor power of the CRV, either, but based on the power ratings of the transaxle motor and the system power, I doubt they are earth shatteringly high.

The UX, for example, jumped from a 7hp to a 41hp rear motor from the 250h to the 300h. At 30mph, that's over 5x more road force than the old system could provide. From a daily driver perspective, I absolutely feel the rear motor pushing the car and impacting the overall vehicle dynamics. The RX500h and Grand Highlander have ~100hp rear motors that definitely are definitely contributing (expecially from a passing maneuver). This transition to more dynamic rear drive is already happening.
From the news release, it's not going to be a basic e-AWD like Toyota and Lexus vehicle have -- activate on slip and only up to a certain speed.

It has little to do with HP/torque it seems but all about implementation. It's a Civic or CRV so I'm sure it's not going to be as elaborate as what Honda plans for it's Acura hybrid line up.

Looks like a step up to Lexus' e-four unless it's by brake-based TVD haha. e-four is shifting torque between rear and front axles depending on the situation and really nothing more.

Starting with the next-generation e:HEV models, Honda will adopt an electric AWD drive unit (E-AWD) that can be shared between hybrid-electric vehicles and EVs. Compared to the mechanical AWD, the E-AWD increases maximum driving force and contributes to the realization of more powerful starting acceleration performance. The technology to control distribution of driving force to the front and rear tires, which Honda has amassed through the development of mechanical AWD, will be further advanced to enable the E-AWD system to optimize front-rear driving force distribution based on changes in tire ground contact load during acceleration/deceleration and turning. Moreover, by precisely controlling the highly precise and responsive motor torque control, the vehicle’s ability to trace the desired driving line and driving stability will be improved regardless of road surface conditions, enabling driving at the will of the driver and with greater peace of mind.
 
Last edited:

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,646
Reactions
8,045
In an ideal world, Lexus would replace their current mess of powertrains with a single 3.0L twin-turbo 90-degree V6 design using experience learned from the F33A-FTV diesel. The engine could have a ~350PS "efficiency" tune or a ~420PS "sport" tune, and 400-500PS in hybridized form. A "utility" version with emphasis on torque and simplicity could also be created for full size GA-F products. This V6 could then share production line and tools with the 4.0L 90-degree V8 from the LFR. The economies of scale would allow them to also produce efficiency/comfort oriented tunes of the V8. In total this would create 4 grades:

"550h": ~400PS V6 hybrid - competes against "40i"/"450"/"43 AMG" from BMW/MB
"660h": ~500PS V6 hybrid - competes against "50i"/"550"/"53 AMG"
"770h": ~600PS V8 hybrid - competes against "60i"/"580"/"55 AMG"
F: 700PS+ V8 petrol or mild hybrid or full hybrid
Later PHEV versions can be added when battery tech can become lightweight enough (or give up on saving weight like Germans do):
"680h+": ~500PS V6 plug-in hybrid
"880h+": ~650PS V8 plug-in hybrid
F: 900PS+ V8 plug-in hybrid (LFR)

This could save money for them since they will consolidate 4 engines (8GR, V35, 2UR, "U40") all based on completely different design philosophies into just 2 engines sharing the same factory AND they will have a very competitive lineup. They would have fuel economy and emissions advantage over their competitors and also keep their promise of every product being electrified after 2025.

But of course the biggest car company in the world knows profit maximization better than I do. The obvious solution is just make everything 4 cylinder, and sell the only 8 cylinder product at unreachable prices.
 

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
7,213
Reactions
16,019
Well what really confuses me is the TX 550h+ kept the 3.5 V-6, adds plug in tech and we get over 400hp but it’s not expanded to other vehicles. And it’s a small amount of volume. We were all shocked when we heard the V-6 was kept.
 

Kelvin2020

Admirer
Messages
654
Reactions
1,473
Well what really confuses me is the TX 550h+ kept the 3.5 V-6, adds plug in tech and we get over 400hp but it’s not expanded to other vehicles. And it’s a small amount of volume. We were all shocked when we heard the V-6 was kept.
Even Mike doesn’t understand it, let alone us🥲
 
Messages
32
Reactions
55
What annoys me is that it always seems like for the crossovers, Lexus stops one step before having a complete, competitive powertrain lineup. RX with the TX550h+ powertrain, NX with the RX500h powertrain, and the UX with the T24 or 350h powertrain would’ve been epic and fun. Like, is it really so bad if their SUVs are too fun or have too much power than the driver knows what to do with?
 

JustADude

Follower
Messages
498
Reactions
434
Since the TX has the this engine, I’m assuming the 8GR can comply with future emissions? Lexus should’ve use the 8GR + e-axle in the RX and also put into new IS, RC, ES with different configurations of course. 8GR + e-axle in the would make 375+ hp/tq and would likely feel better than T24 + e-axle. That’s a decent combo if Lexus really don’t wanna make a turbo-6 imo
 

MrT

Messages
16
Reactions
3
  • Toyota brand to introduce six new battery electric vehicles in Europe by 2026
  • Lexus to launch three new battery electric vehicles in 2025 including the new Lexus RZ with steer-by-wire technology

Announcement from lexus europe.....Any idea what these other 2 lexus products could be?