Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[ssun30]

BMW engines paired with series-parallel hybrid system would be awesome though.

BMW does have some interesting hybrid tech that I wish Toyota can adopt someday.

The 750e uses a P2 hybrid system. But the motor is connected to the transmission through a 1.6:1 "pre-gearing stage" to amplify the torque. This allows them to use a much smaller and lighter motor (145kW/280N.m) with 5kW/kg power density, while having 450N.m of torque in EV-only mode. The motor spins up to 11500rpm which reduces to 7000rpm in the transmission side to sync with the ICE.

This system would work even better on a strong hybrid since the torque amplification helps more for the weaker motors. The iForce Max uses a 1TM motor which is derived from the 1KM used on the UX300e/Mirai because it can provide 250N.m of torque, but the battery can only discharge at 36kW so they are wasting a lot of potential and adding a lot of weight. If they use BMW's setup they could then use the 4NM motor used on their E-Four SUVs (40kW/140N.m) and save over half the weight. Of course, this system is more complex and harder to service, but the weakest link in hybrid systems is the ICE not the motor.

Their latest 48V mild hybrid system also uses a P1+P2 setup so they can do engine-off coasting and regen braking at the same time. This is very similar to Hyundai's latest 2 motor+6AT hybrid system. All they need is a high voltage battery to get strong hybrid. But the main problem with this approach is cost.

 

[internalaudit]

The only thing that's gonna alienate potential Lexus BEV buyers is poor BEV product like UX300e or RZ450e. US dealers straight out refuse to sell any RZs cause they are afraid of the backlash. Funny thing is that RZ450e is the only four door they have right now that drives closest to now defunct 4GS. It drives miles better than gas or hybrid ES.

Well, definitely what you said and the type of vehicles too. It's really Lexus/Toyota alienating prospective buyers by conducting poor product planning, going with niche products that cover a very small target market or raising prices so much so that the value proposition is gone.

If Lexus can't even come with sporty enough performance vehicles, why bother risking it with two-door vehicle offerings? We all know the market for that is much smaller.

To me, there's always Acura, BMW or maybe even Mercedes anyway if nothing compelling comes out of Lexus. Not taking Lexus off my short list yet as nothing I see is compelling enough now that my wife has her X3 M40i with the M Sport Differential.

I don't know how hard it is to build a sporty hybrid vehicle with a more advanced differential. Toyota rules hybrid technology anyway but Honda is closing in with its next gen eHEVs with e-AWD.

 

[internalaudit]

BMW does have some interesting hybrid tech that I wish Toyota can adopt someday.

The 750e uses a P2 hybrid system. But the motor is connected to the transmission through a 1.6:1 "pre-gearing stage" to amplify the torque. This allows them to use a much smaller and lighter motor (145kW/280N.m) with 5kW/kg power density, while having 450N.m of torque in EV-only mode. The motor spins up to 11500rpm which reduces to 7000rpm in the transmission side to sync with the ICE.

This system would work even better on a strong hybrid since the torque amplification helps more for the weaker motors. The iForce Max uses a 1TM motor which is derived from the 1KM used on the UX300e/Mirai because it can provide 250N.m of torque, but the battery can only discharge at 36kW so they are wasting a lot of potential and adding a lot of weight. If they use BMW's setup they could then use the 4NM motor used on their E-Four SUVs (40kW/140N.m) and save over half the weight. Of course, this system is more complex and harder to service, but the weakest link in hybrid systems is the ICE not the motor.

Their latest 48V mild hybrid system also uses a P1+P2 setup so they can do engine-off coasting and regen braking at the same time. This is very similar to Hyundai's latest 2 motor+6AT hybrid system. All they need is a high voltage battery to get strong hybrid. But the main problem with this approach is cost.

What do you think of BMW's B58TU2 (3rd gen which includes port injectors and cylinder deactivation) in terms of reliability? It's crazy how fuel efficient these motors are when coasting on the free/highway.

Most of the complaints on existing B58TU are around the flimsy oil filter housing unit and maybe valve cover gaskets beyond 60k miles though.

 

[Kelvin2020]

According to my sources, Lexus originally planned to release two high performance models this year. However, due to various considerations, these projects were canceled or delayed (Not sure which one). The management’s approach leans towards adjusting plans based on market changes to ensure steady development and avoid excessive risks. At the same time, the rapid rise of Chinese EV has significantly impacted the market, further influencing Lexus’s product planning. Toyota has always maintained a relatively conservative strategy in operating Lexus. In terms of market positioning and brand image, they want to make sure Lexus focuses more on luxury and comfort.

 

[sl0519]

According to my sources, Lexus originally planned to release two high performance models this year. However, due to various considerations, these projects were canceled or delayed (Not sure which one). The management’s approach leans towards adjusting plans based on market changes to ensure steady development and avoid excessive risks. At the same time, the rapid rise of Chinese EV has significantly impacted the market, further influencing Lexus’s product planning. Toyota has always maintained a relatively conservative strategy in operating Lexus. In terms of market positioning and brand image, they want to make sure Lexus focuses more on luxury and comfort.

Same old story...Lexus always says they're gonna launch more performance models, and then bam, another excuse. Last time it was COVID, now what? It’s always the same canned response: “We'll adjust based on market conditions.” Yeah right haha.

Let’s be real - they’re just chasing Tesla now. Those old hybrids? Yeah, we’re not updating those either so dream more. But hey, just keep buying our stuff, they are super duper reliable, right? Nothing beats our good old engines and chassis - they just don’t break!

Oh, and if they're all about “focusing on luxury” now… where’s the new LS? Oh wait, never mind - we’ve got the all new ES! We’re super proud it’s now replacing the LS - so you can “experience flagship luxury” at a fraction of the cost. Great deal isn't it?

 

[ssun30]

Most of their competitors are heavily hurt by the EV gold rush that turned out to be a money sink: Mercedes, Audi, Volvo, Cadillac. Lexus already dodged the biggest bullet, what other risk are they avoiding? They can just badge engineer whatever GR product is available and they will have a VERY strong performance lineup with a proven business case and success record. It's that easy. But no, GR is sacred to Toyota, it's off limits to Lexus. Lexus dealers have to beg to have the GR GT carry a Lexus badge.

And this "Chinese EV threat" excuse is even more stupid, because the right course of action against that threat is definitely NOT delaying their dedicated BEV platform and the battery/electric drivetrain/autonomous driving tech that come with it. I'm fairly certain their mentality right now is "once the Shanghai EV factory comes online everything will be fine". No, things are not fine. They are still years behind and are not advancing at the same pace as their competitors. I applaud the surprising amount of improvements in the bZ4X which will carry over to the RZ, but these "improvements" should be the baseline for them 3 years ago.

Maybe it's just too deeply ingrained in their mind that producing a product that is competitive yesterday, not tomorrow, is a viable business strategy because they've been getting away with it for too long.

I still haven't given up on the brand because I'm interested to see what the rumored "HZ" based on the LF-ZC concept will materialize into. The other luxury brand that similarly fell behind in EVs is BMW. Now it's one of the top EV makers in Europe, and the Neue Klasse VDX concept is the most ambitious EV program by a non-Chinese company (very few people realize this, it's not just about the power). It's a big middle finger to the Chinese BBA wannabes that says "no you are not going to beat over a century of knowhow and we will put you in your place". We simply won't see that level of ambition and confidence from Lexus that they used to have back in 1989.

 

[Gecko]

I've seen some discussion that LF-ZC was the preview for the new ES design...? Is there supposed to be a formal follow up model from that concept?

 

[sl0519]

I've seen some discussion that LF-ZC was the preview for the new ES design...? Is there supposed to be a formal follow up model from that concept?

HZ very possible

 

[Falcon]

I've seen some discussion that LF-ZC was the preview for the new ES design...? Is there supposed to be a formal follow up model from that concept?

Yes it'll go into production in 2027 and it'll debut new skateboard platform and full arene software.

 

[Kelvin2020]

Toyota And Lexus Will Merge EV And Hybrid Models To Make Things Simpler

Toyota, as well as its luxury branch Lexus, have been among the most reliable, as well as innovative companies in the auto industry for decades now. Toyota is

techcrawlr.com

 

[Gor134]

..... wasn't that the initial plan with the 2021 reveal? 😭

 

[MrT]

Is the next new Lexus a new UX, IS or LS? Or 3 row BEV?

 

[Gor134]

Is the next new Lexus a new UX, IS or LS? Or 3 row BEV?

I'm gonna assume 3 row BEV and NX facelift are up next

 

[internalaudit]

For BEVs, it seems software and battery quality/chemistry are key to reliability and longevity especially with constant software updates and vehicles dependency on the software.

How's Toyota's Arene and will it likely fare better than European automakers in terms of reliability?

 

[ssun30]

From the RAV4 preview video the Arene software looks very functional and I prefer the UI over Android Automotive OS. But the smoothness could be better. Hopefully it's something they can improve upon with future updates.

The Chinese market Camry uses a different OS that is among the most advanced on the market, for example it supports V2X communications so you can control smart home appliances from the car, or doesn't need a transponder for ETC.

 

[sl0519]

From the RAV4 preview video the Arene software looks very functional and I prefer the UI over Android Automotive OS. But the smoothness could be better. Hopefully it's something they can improve upon with future updates.

The Chinese market Camry uses a different OS that is among the most advanced on the market, for example it supports V2X communications so you can control smart home appliances from the car, or doesn't need a transponder for ETC.

yea finally rid of that dumb 360 camera view ppl have been complaining for years

 

[spwolf]

For BEVs, it seems software and battery quality/chemistry are key to reliability and longevity especially with constant software updates and vehicles dependency on the software.

How's Toyota's Arene and will it likely fare better than European automakers in terms of reliability?

i think this version of arene is not fully software defined vehicle, so it does not control everything. They mention that happening in 2027 or so.

It certainly looks smoother and graphics just look good and 2025.

 

[spwolf]

Arene based new multimedia:


I

 

[internalaudit]

i think this version of arene is not fully software defined vehicle, so it does not control everything. They mention that happening in 2027 or so.

It certainly looks smoother and graphics just look good and 2025.

I meant everything critical apart from the infotainment but the latter is a good start lol.

Everyone is going for that one to four brains set up so that lag times are reduced among the various systems. Sounds like a good idea taking advantage of the precision that BEVs can deliver torque and power on.

 

[NomadDan]

Are the new 1.5, 1.5T, and 2.0T still part of the Dynamic Force engine family, or would I be correct in assuming Toyota is now moving on, away from the "Dynamic Force" nomenclature? It seems there are still a couple missing engines from the original Dynamic Force graphic that was shared several years ago, but I get the impression we will never see those engines.