Update: Lexus Confirms Three Row RX Crossover [Formerly RX Trademark Talk]

[DDas]

I never said that TX was dead. It's still very much alive. I just said it could die if the RX L becomes Lexus' largest (or only) 3-row crossover.

Also, VX and JX were actual trademarks registered by Toyota, presumably for Lexus' use, but the company let them die unused. This happens all the time. Nissan/Infiniti was only able to pick up and use JX after Toyota/Lexus let it lapse and die. Toyota had it first. This is, perhaps, Nissan's backhanded way of getting back at Toyota for using NX for Lexus. Nissan had a Pulsar NX in its lineup decades before the Lexus small crossover used those initials.

Dang. Maybe Lexus should come at Buick for making a Regal GS. Always pissed me off - Buick can only have a GS package because its not good enough to be up to the standards of the actual GS. Didn't know they actually had JX and VX. Thanks for sharing! I feel like TX will either replace the GX (staying SUV like) or be this so called flagship SUV (even though I thought the LX was the flagship SUV of Lexus). Maybe a G Wagon competitor...that'd be fun. Also I really liked the name EX but Infiniti had it. Maybe, Lexus can take that now instead of UX. Ew.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Dang. Maybe Lexus should come at Buick for making a Regal GS. Always pissed me off - Buick can only have a GS package because its not good enough to be up to the standards of the actual GS. Didn't know they actually had JX and VX. Thanks for sharing! I feel like TX will either replace the GX (staying SUV like) or be this so called flagship SUV (even though I thought the LX was the flagship SUV of Lexus). Maybe a G Wagon competitor...that'd be fun. Also I really liked the name EX but Infiniti had it. Maybe, Lexus can take that now instead of UX. Ew.

Yeah, some of the trademark rules are so arbitrary and confounding. Your Buick Regal vs Lexus GS example is a good one (although Buick's first use of GS - for Gran Sport - actually predated Lexus' by over 25 years!), as is all the cars that use LS or LX trim levels (Honda, for example). And both GM's Oldsmobile division and Italy's Lancia had Delta models around the same time.

On the other hand, Volvo blocked Toyota/Scion from using xC for the sports coupe that became tC, and Audi's longstanding wish to use Q2 and Q4 badges was blocked for years by Fiat's Alfa Romeo and Maserati brands, until the latter finally relented about a year ago.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

And why first registered in Europe ?
Maybe a stupid question, but I don't think that the main market for the 350L will be Europe...

A valid observation, and I agree with arrow1982 that few RX 350Ls will be sold in Europe outside of Russia.

On the other hand, RX 350L wasn't necessarily registered first in Europe. It was just published first/faster on their database for new trademarks. Case in point: Toyota registered the trio of UX 200, UX 250 and UX 250h trademarks within a day or two of each other in Australia, Europe and the U.S., but over a week passed between the public appearance of the first (in Australia) and the last (the U.S.)

 

[Joe]

Anyone already guessed that RX 'L' could be 'L' for Large instead of Long?
Makes a nice combination: if you write it differently, it looks like R XL

 

[meth.ix]

Lexus actually did hold the JX trademark for a few years... it wasn't 3 months after they let it expire that Infiniti picked it up, and then killed it later for QX60. "JX" has had an interesting run so far.



What makes you say that "hopefully" the GX will die if the RX-L comes along? Dropping a BOF, off-road capable SUV with a V8 is not something I'd celebrate if it's replaced with a FWD-based V6 crossover.

For the record, the MDX, Q7 and X5 are very much competitors - along with QX60, XC90, etc. Different flavors, but competitors none the less.

I mean the GX and the RX L would be in the same segment, and the RX would definitely get more sales. The GX isn't the best in it's segment but the RX L could change that. The GX is badly in need of a refresh too. An RX L would be more popular since it has the letters "RX" in it, and those letters are a crazy customer magnet. And I know that the GX is badly in need of a refresh anyways. There's no point of having two cars in the same segment, so either the RX L shouldn't go into production or the GX gets killed off. I would have the GX killed off personally.

 

[Gecko]

I mean the GX and the RX L would be in the same segment, and the RX would definitely get more sales. The GX isn't the best in it's segment but the RX L could change that. The GX is badly in need of a refresh too. An RX L would be more popular since it has the letters "RX" in it, and those letters are a crazy customer magnet. And I know that the GX is badly in need of a refresh anyways. There's no point of having two cars in the same segment, so either the RX L shouldn't go into production or the GX gets killed off. I would have the GX killed off personally.

How badly an RX L would eat into GX sales would depend on a lot of different things like price, ground clearance, product packaging, engines, technology and more. Consider that the 4Runner and Highlander coexist quite peacefully, both are 3 row "S/CUVs" with nearly identical output from V6 engines and obviously both wear the same badge. At this point, GX is in a class of one: Standard V8, full time 4X4, BOF construction. To the family who is just looking for a three row Lexus vehicle, yes, RX-L will be better for them. To the person who hauls, tows, has a mountain home or lives in an area with a lot of inclement weather, GX is the no brainer choice.

Does GX need a refresh? Yes. But "no point in having two cars in the same segment"... not sure I agree. In my opinion, if Lexus is just going to create an RX L that actually leaves more breathing room for GX than if they were to come up with a new model, like fabled "TX."

 

[mikeavelli]

I just don't see the GX being around when everything is unibody and I'm not sure if its "classic" enough to stick around and be sold like a G-Wagon. Lets all be honest here the GX having 7 seats is a big reason people buy it and want to stick with Lexus. A 7 seat RX will immediately damage the GX

I never said that TX was dead. It's still very much alive. I just said it could die if the RX L becomes Lexus' largest (or only) 3-row crossover.

Also, VX and JX were actual trademarks registered by Toyota, presumably for Lexus' use, but the company let them die unused. This happens all the time. Nissan/Infiniti was only able to pick up and use JX after Toyota/Lexus let it lapse and die. Toyota had it first. This is, perhaps, Nissan's backhanded way of getting back at Toyota for using NX for Lexus. Nissan had a Pulsar NX in its lineup decades before the Lexus small crossover used those initials.

Infiniti dropped JX for QX though for all their SUVs....

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

I just don't see the GX being around when everything is unibody and I'm not sure if its "classic" enough to stick around and be sold like a G-Wagon. Lets all be honest here the GX having 7 seats is a big reason people buy it and want to stick with Lexus. A 7 seat RX will immediately damage the GX



Infiniti dropped JX for QX though for all their SUVs....

That is the conventional wisdom and even some Lexus insiders and officials have hinted that the days of old-school body-on-frame SUVs like the current GX and LX are numbered because of tightening fuel economy and CO2 regulations around the world. And yet... nobody talks about Toyota's Land Cruiser Prado dying out. There's still demand for that sort of traditional BOF SUV around the world, and tweaking and gussying it up to create a 4Runner for North America and a new-gen Lexus GX is a low-cost, high-profit margin no-brainer.

Very true that Infiniti very quickly dropped JX for QX, but they were still the last automotive owners of JX trademarks. In fact,they still own and report JX35 as being a live trademark. On the other hand, JX20, JX25H and JX30 are dead.

 

[spwolf]

Fascinating, given all the mixed remarks from Toyota executives and engineers regarding a long-wheelbase RX. Then again, Toyota trademarks often don't result in an actual production model. Will be interesting to see if indeed we get a long-wheelbase RX or a new model.



I don't mean to be picky here, but just wanted to say that here on this forum, those shots of the camo RX prototypes were proven to have virtually identical rear ends to the current RX. It's just not physically possible for them to have crammed a third row into that camouflaged body. They were obviously testing something though.

indeed... I wonder if this will still be 5 seater but with more legroom at the back? Like those Chinese 5 series and A6?

Since at European launch, we had Lexus engineers tell us that there is no way to cram 2 more seats into RX, it was not engineered for that and it would be whole new car. Unless Aussie media that reported that lied about it, it would not be their first time

 

[spwolf]

That is the conventional wisdom and even some Lexus insiders and officials have hinted that the days of old-school body-on-frame SUVs like the current GX and LX are numbered because of tightening fuel economy and CO2 regulations around the world. And yet... nobody talks about Toyota's Land Cruiser Prado dying out. There's still demand for that sort of traditional BOF SUV around the world, and tweaking and gussying it up to create a 4Runner for North America and a new-gen Lexus GX is a low-cost, high-profit margin no-brainer.

Very true that Infiniti very quickly dropped JX for QX, but they were still the last automotive owners of JX trademarks. In fact,they still own and report JX35 as being a live trademark. On the other hand, JX20, JX25H and JX30 are dead.

LX is best selling high end luxury Lexus right now worldwide, it outsells LS by significant number. So LX is not going anywhere.

LC200 and LC150 (Prado) are selling like crazy for Toyota worldwide. They are not going anywhere. If anything, I would guess that next variations will likely get significantly more R&D than before... like IMV project did with new vehicles - just look at Hilux and Fortuner now.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Three days after that 11 March 2016 European RX 350 L trademark filing, a U.S. counterpart appeared, under Serial Number 86938786. More significantly, it was joined by RX 450h L, also filed on 14 March 2016 under U.S. Serial Number 86938685 for the obligatory “automobiles and structural parts thereof”.

While Lexus Enthusiasts were focused on the possibility of RX L killing off the GX (leading to Michael Pannone aka Gecko's excellent, spot-on analysis piece: https://lexusenthusiast.com/2016/03/17/crystal-ball-reading-the-future-of-the-lexus-gx/ ), I went off on a slightly different tangent, wondering if RX L could, instead, kill any hopes of a larger TX or, more to the point, what might a potential TX be?

My thoughts and comments appear in this Kaizen Factor write-up:
http://kaizen-factor.com/rx-450h-l-joins-rx-350-l-trademark-u-s-affect-future-lexus-tx/

 

[Gecko]

Great write up, Joaquin!

RX L seems to throw a wrench in the plans for both GX and potential TX, and I like the possibilities that you laid out.

My personal opinion is that Lexus will probably retire "TX" and for the next generation full redesign, GX will move to a unibody platform. GX is well known and well respected in the lineup, and I think that Lexus offering 4 SUV options with 3 rows of seats might be overkill. GX seems to logically fill that middle seat between RX and LX. I think we'll see them "heavily refresh" it similar to Tundra/LC for 2017 or 2018, and then we see the all-new unibody model around 2020 on GA-L, or an equivalent platform that can handle 350+ hp and deliver sportier performance.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Great write up, Joaquin!

RX L seems to throw a wrench in the plans for both GX and potential TX, and I like the possibilities that you laid out.

My personal opinion is that Lexus will probably retire "TX" and for the next generation full redesign, GX will move to a unibody platform. GX is well known and well respected in the lineup, and I think that Lexus offering 4 SUV options with 3 rows of seats might be overkill. GX seems to logically fill that middle seat between RX and LX. I think we'll see them "heavily refresh" it similar to Tundra/LC for 2017 or 2018, and then we see the all-new unibody model around 2020 on GA-L, or an equivalent platform that can handle 350+ hp and deliver sportier performance.

Thanks for the kind words and praise.

I definitely agree that the Lexus GX/ Toyota Land Cruiser Prado/4Runner fraternal triplets are due for some kind of change in the 2017/2018 model year timeframe. Whether this will be an all-new generation (as conventional wisdom would dictate given their 2010 model year launch) or a second "heavy refresh" as on the Lexus LX/Toyota Land Cruiser J200 V8 is the $64,000 question.

Is offering 4 Lexus crossover/SUVs with 3rd-row seating overkill? Probably. Then again, there's some logic to offering a shorter 3-row crossover (RX-L), a longer such crossover (TX), a shorter 3-row full-on BOF SUV (GX) and a longer counterpart (LX).

Another thought just came to mind: if a new 3-row crossover renders the GX redundant, would it even pick up the GX badge? With the arguable exception of the 1st-to-2nd-gen SC transition, we haven't really seen any Lexus models make huge changes in their "mission statement", if you will. Even when it somehow seemed logical for Lexus' newest high-end 2+2 to become the 3rd-generation of SC, it instead went in a different direction and became an all-new LC line. Would a change from body-on-frame, truck-based true off-road SUV to more car-like crossover be such a major change to the GX's ethos that it would merit a new badge?

Yet another thought: GX could stick around for a 3rd generation as a true SUV luxury derivative of Land Cruiser Prado/4Runner but ditch the third seat, making it more like the Mercedes GLE and Jeep Grand Cherokee in that regard.

 

[corgilady2011]

I have been pretty glued to these types of discussions recently as quite frankly, I am probably the target market that Lexus would be looking at for any and all of the above (RX350-L, revised GX, new introduction TX). This is my first post here after much lurking.

I think the writing on the wall is something will happen with the GX for the 2017/2018 model year. Although, the announcement from Lexus this morning in that LSS+ will still not be standard on the GX by the end of 2017 is quite an interesting statement. I almost read that as there will be minimal modifications, if any, to GX for 2017 year and a redesign / next gen for 2018.

It feels like there is a place in the Lexus line-up for two unibody platform 3-row SUVs. RX350-L to be the Infiniti QX60 / Acura MDX type fighter, but there is definitely a bit of a gap in my mind in regards to something that could go up against the Audi Q7 and the Mercedes GLS for instance. The latter being much of my requirements in my next vehicle. 85% of my driving is in the city, therefore I really have little to no desire to drive a truck based luxury GX getting 15 mpg, when I could get a Prestige trim Q7 with 19 mpg and much more room and tech, or up my budget slightly and get the GLS.

Those are two vehicles that would check mark all of my needs that are out on the market today, not to mention the upcoming "XT7" size Cadillac based off of the Traverse/Enclave platform I believe. The competition in that segment is just continuing to grow and if Lexus does not put something out there, they will become even further behind the current market trends, IMO.

Although, I guess the question always remains if the GX could continue to co-exist with a larger unibody platform SUV of that stature, or if that would be overkill in the lineup. GX would have issues growing in size a bit to better compete with some of the other truck based SUVs at the price point (ie: upper trims of Tahoe/Yukon (Denali)/lower trims of Escalade & QX80) because it would start stepping on toes of LX not only in size, but there is some overlap in the upper trims pricing of competition such as the Escalade that would rival the LX pricing then too. Then again, the 4runner has had quite a bit of success co-existing with the Highlander in the Toyota lineup.

As far as "TX" - It would be nice to have a true, sport based SUV similar to Macan or Cayenne. One with true "F" roots as you would say. I could only hold out hope for that. If you take the actual "TX" to heart, then it could really be that Yukon Denali/lower trim Escalade fighter because there is an extremely large market out there for these types of truck-based luxury SUVs (especially in TX), they just need to be larger than the current GX, but also less expensive than current LX.

I am glad I still have two years left on my current lease as that will give Lexus plenty of time to put something out into the market that would fit what I am going to need upon lease end, however if I was ending today, I would likely have no choice but to leave the Lexus brand and hop skip to an Audi Q7/ Merc GLS at my price point.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

I have been pretty glued to these types of discussions recently as quite frankly, I am probably the target market that Lexus would be looking at for any and all of the above (RX350-L, revised GX, new introduction TX). This is my first post here after much lurking.

I think the writing on the wall is something will happen with the GX for the 2017/2018 model year. Although, the announcement from Lexus this morning in that LSS+ will still not be standard on the GX by the end of 2017 is quite an interesting statement. I almost read that as there will be minimal modifications, if any, to GX for 2017 year and a redesign / next gen for 2018...

An excellent, super-well-informed first post! Welcome aboard!

Indeed, when I read Krew's article on LSS+ ( https://lexusenthusiast.com/2016/03...ll-be-standard-on-most-models-by-end-of-2017/ ) and the full official Toyota/Lexus press release ( http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyo...mated+braking+standard+2017.htm?view_id=30347 ) the exclusion of Lexus GX until "the end of 2017" led me to conclude that the 2017 and even 2018 model year GX would be carryover with minimal changes. Further bolstering this, its downmarket Toyota 4Runner fraternal twin was also in the "excluded" list. Sounds to me that the next change to 4Runner/GX won't be happening until January 2018 (Detroit Auto Show launch?) at the very earliest. Added to the uncertainty over a second major facelift vs an all-new generation is whether this new version will be a short 2018 model year or an extended 2019 MY...

 

[krew]

krew

Lexus has trademarked both the RX 350L and RX 450hL nameplates in the USA.

View the original article post

 

[meth.ix]

Interesting how there was no Hybrid variant in Europe!

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Interesting how there was no Hybrid variant in Europe!

There might yet be.

When the UX trademarks first surfaced in Australia, only UX 250 and UX 250h were evident. A couple of days later, as the action moved to Europe and then the U.S., a third UX 200 trademark appeared. I have reason to believe, however, that there was also an UX 200 trademark Down Under, but they never found a PDF document the way they did for 250 and 250h.

A similar situation may have happened with RX 450hL in Europe. It may have been filed a day or 2 after RX 350L and nobody bothered to take a second look. At any rate, I'd expect overall European sales of an RX 450hL to far exceed those of RX 350L.

 

[meth.ix]

There might yet be.

When the UX trademarks first surfaced in Australia, only UX 250 and UX 250h were evident. A couple of days later, as the action moved to Europe and then the U.S., a third UX 200 trademark appeared. I have reason to believe, however, that there was also an UX 200 trademark Down Under, but they never found a PDF document the way they did for 250 and 250h.

A similar situation may have happened with RX 450hL in Europe. It may have been filed a day or 2 after RX 350L and nobody bothered to take a second look. At any rate, I'd expect overall European sales of an RX 450hL to far exceed those of RX 350L.

But I'm thinking that Lexus purposely didn't add a Hybrid variant in Europe, since Hybrids aren't as popular in Europe.

 

[mikeavelli]

Well this complicates things for us. Like corgilady2011 we are looking at SUVs and my wife was pretty set on the 5 seat RX but this throws a loop in things. Curious will F-Sports be offered.