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Joaquin Ruhi
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Two things worth keeping in mind:
1) In the declining North American mid-size sedan market, it seems that each major Japanese carmaker is staking out a unique niche for itself, with only a bare handful of rivals. Toyota's Camry is almost the sole remaining midsize to offer a V6 option (alongside Ford Fusion Sport). Honda Accord has the broadest variety of clutch-pedal manual transmission offerings (on both 1.5-liter and 2-liter Sport models). And AWD options for the new-for-2019 Nissan Altima are rivaled only by Ford and Subaru. Could the latter move, if successful, spur Toyota to offer an AWD option on Camry?
2) The 5th-generation Toyota RAV4 debuting in a few months marks both a move to the latest Camry/Avalon/ES TNGA-K platform and Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD. And, for the 2020 model year, its larger Toyota Highlander sibling follows in its footsteps. Could these renovated models (plus the AWD-optional Sienna minivan due for its own transition to TNGA-K around the same time) create enough critical mass to make an AWD option for some if not all the TNGA-K sedans a more viable and profitable proposition?
Wishful thinking as conservative as Lexus/Toyota is I'm hoping for a IS400 or IS450 model with a 3.5 v6 twin turbo for the next generation, and for the return of the IS-F with a 4.0 v8 that is rumoured to be in the LC-F. And I think Lexus needs to offer more individual options like the Germans, I really don't like that there is only 3 packages available for the F Sport and non F Sport. If I'm spending over $50k on a vehicle I want more individual options to suit my needs. Isn't that where auto manufacturers make the most profits, in options?
1) Possibly. It could make Toyota think twice and offer an AWD format for the Camry/Avalon. If Camry/Avalon get AWD, ES will follow suit. But I would still tread lightly on this point. It really depends on how well the Altima sells overall and how much of those units are AWD. If the Altima, even with an AWD model, doesn't even break close to Camry numbers. Toyota will still edge it out and refuse to offer an AWD option. Because they are still net profiting high sales w/o the AWD.
The only way I see Camry/Avalon/ES having AWD is if the demand is there. Sadly - there is no demand for this. The Camry/Avalon/ES base doesn't crave this.
Due to the TNGA-K, Toyota can bring AWD at anytime. The biggest question is if they will. My money is no.
2) Interesting point. You still have to see if its profitable to make AWD versions of each specific car. I don't believe Toyota will add something to a car because they have the ability to do so. Toyota will do it when they feel like its time or their research says so. You can see this pattern throughout their line-up. They have done some things that seem slow and questionable in car enthusiasts eyes but it draws big dollar.
If Toyota's research concludes that Camry/Avalon/ES would benefit from an AWD, they will add it.
Based off my experience as a long time Toyota investor - I agree - that is definitely wishful thinking.
Toyota's business model is very conservative and unique. They want to milk the hell out of something before even considering replacing it or "improving it". The engines in the 2G Lexus IS was used for 10 years plus before Toyota was like "Okay. Lets change it."
Personally - I wish there is a Lexus IS400 or 450 too. That would make it a C43 AMG, 340i, S4, and Q50 RS competitor. But do I think it will happen? Probably not. Toyota cares about the profit margin. They know majority of Lexus IS sales are base engine models. The question is - would it be worth it for them to develop a TTV6 for the Lexus IS for low returns. Would it please enthusiasts? Yes. Would it please share holders? Probably not.
Second thing to keep in mind - we are in a SUV crazed market. With the UX coming out and the rumored high end crossover being in the pipeline, Lexus is probably more focused on SUVs rather than high-performance Sedans.
Last thing to keep in mind is that Lexus recently said they don't want to keep their line-up bloated like their German rivals. This means - they are more likely to cut models than add models. And when Lexus add models - it'll likely be profitable models (SUVs and Hybrids perhaps). Lexus getting on the EV train is likely as well.
Regarding your last comment - yes/no. It depends how you look at it. Yes - the vehicles tend to be more expensive when you have to add individual options in order to build it - like Mercedes Benz.
However - when you do fix packages - that's where the real money comes in. Because when you let people do options - they can option it just the 2-3 things they like. When the packages are fixed, they can offer a much of stuff in one package (some you might not want) for a higher price. Take a look how the Lexus ES is tiered.
TheNerdyPotato
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Another reason why Toyota hasn't made many AWD cars may be because they own a 20% stake of Subaru. Since AWD is one of Subaru's main selling points, Toyota may be trying to not step on their toes. I know it's unlikely to happen, but it could be interesting to see an IS with a Subaru-sourced AWD drivetrain. This wouldn't work with some GA-L cars, which I've read are FMR layout, because the engine is always ahead of the front axle on Subaru powertrains.
Subaru could move away from SymmetricAWD with ElectricRWD. But it will likely remain SymmetricFWD, because of its Boxer engine.
Yes. yes! This. Thank you for pointing this out - I have missed this fact.
Its very true. Toyota has investments in Subaru. Its highly likely they don't want to take away Subaru's market share of AWD. We would still have to calculate the profits to see if Toyota will benefit more from staying away from Subaru's turf.
I also want to add Toyota AWD systems aren't partially good. They are okay at best if I'm honest. Toyota's AWD system just doesn't have the selling power of say a Audi, Acura or Subaru AWD system. This could further deter Toyota away from adding AWD to a lot of their vehicles.
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They had nothing to do with anything. Only reason Toyota didn't make AWD Corolla or Camry before was that they did not seem it worth it.
Toyota also owns Torsen and is overall largest producer of 4x4 systems in the world. Most Japanese Toyotas have some kind of AWD system.
Carmaker1
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As I said often, it is indeed on schedule for MY 2021 July SOP nd Merrill Lynch Car Wars were full of it, in claiming MY 2020. Question is, will this truly be a GA-L car or a new application called GA-N, based on new Crown?
The Camry will go in that direction very, very soon anyway, as will the Avalon. The ES will be offered with AWD, starting in December 2018 for Europe and UK (if not already mentioned). And not to play semantics, but surely you remember the Camry was available with AWD until 1991 and Corolla until 1992.
Development of the RAV4 by 1990, shuttered an E100 All-Trac and early, but delayed plans for a Highlander -like offering (development started in 1996) against the XV10 of September 1991.
On a side note, according to Gecko, the 4Runner barely survived as it is since Generation 3-4. Naturally, a 4th generation 4runner (N210), would arrived by 2001.
In 1998, Toyota instead approved the final design of what was the Highlander/Kluger by May and finalized specifications in late October/early November on a new midsize platform. There were no plans to redesign the 4Runner allegedly, as this new model would arrive in early 2001, as a timely unibody replacement for it.
(Take note that the second generation model was released April 1989 as an early 1990MY, 5 years after the original 1984.5 and redesigned in September 1995 as the Hilux Surf (N180).)
It wasn't until a round of design efforts during 1999 and 2000, that anything bore fruit to the 4th generation 4Runner (N210), that arrived in October 2002 as a more luxurious offering (compared to N180), based on a more upscale Prado 120 and Lexus GX 470 (120-Series was developed with Lexus in mind from 1997). In many ways, the current 4Runner is handicapped as a North American offering, built in Japan.
My point is, Toyota don't always make the soundest decisions with product planning and sometimes have to catch themselves, before making final commitments during development stages and even later after launch.
The Camry will go in that direction very, very soon anyway, as will the Avalon. The ES will be offered with AWD, starting in December 2018 for Europe and UK (if not already mentioned). And not to play semantics, but surely you remember the Camry was available with AWD until 1991 and Corolla until 1992.
Development of the RAV4 by 1990, shuttered an E100 All-Trac and early, but delayed plans for a Highlander -like offering (development started in 1996) against the XV10 of September 1991.
On a side note, according to Gecko, the 4Runner barely survived as it is since Generation 3-4. Naturally, a 4th generation 4runner (N210), would arrived by 2001.
In 1998, Toyota instead approved the final design of what was the Highlander/Kluger by May and finalized specifications in late October/early November on a new midsize platform. There were no plans to redesign the 4Runner allegedly, as this new model would arrive in early 2001, as a timely unibody replacement for it.
(Take note that the second generation model was released April 1989 as an early 1990MY, 5 years after the original 1984.5 and redesigned in September 1995 as the Hilux Surf (N180).)
It wasn't until a round of design efforts during 1999 and 2000, that anything bore fruit to the 4th generation 4Runner (N210), that arrived in October 2002 as a more luxurious offering (compared to N180), based on a more upscale Prado 120 and Lexus GX 470 (120-Series was developed with Lexus in mind from 1997). In many ways, the current 4Runner is handicapped as a North American offering, built in Japan.
My point is, Toyota don't always make the soundest decisions with product planning and sometimes have to catch themselves, before making final commitments during development stages and even later after launch.
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TheNerdyPotato
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Huh, did not know that.
Joaquin Ruhi
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If this Mag-X article turns out to be correct, given that 4IS will share the shorter of 3 available GA-L wheelbases with LC theoretically leaves room for a 5GS that shares the 2920mm (115") wheelbase with the 18th-gen Toyota Crown. That doesn't mean, of course, that there will be a 5GS...
Carmaker1
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Does Mag X have the correct facts, when I have recently pointed out that the GA-L is not shared with the Crown? It is on TNGA-N.
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Joaquin Ruhi
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Wow! I'm floored! All along, I was under the impression that Toyota Crown15 shared the GA-L platform with Lexus LC and LS. You mentioned Crown15 being on a TNGA-N platform a few minutes ago on another Lexus Enthusiast thread and was puzzled. But you're absolutely right. The latest update to Wikipedia's Toyota Crown article indeed states that it's on GA-N, and backs that up with this smoking gun: an article on the TNGA platform from Japanese website Prius-News.com
Carmaker1
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Ironically, I am the one who corrected that on Wikipedia recently. Because I am guilty of claiming the Crown would debut TNGA-L, when such a thing doesn't seem to exist. Thanks to my being extra proactive with my S220 = TNGA-L (since S220 spy shots) last year, a lot of credible sources wrongfully went with that as valid. My fault honestly, so I am doing clean-up really quickly.:blush:
Joaquin Ruhi
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Ha! For some reason, I had a crazy hunch that you might have been behind that Wikipedia update...
GTG
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Well it’s about time we get some good news ! The IS is getting larger , I hope that space is in the trunk and the back seat . Then it will be a real revelry between the Germans . Could we please get 350hp and a IS F 400 plus , with a dual clutch and a 50/50 weight distribution . Please !
CIF
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(TN)GA-N is still an FR platform, and thus similar to GA-L. The older N platform was shared amongst the Crown and GS. Now Toyota has introduced some divergence with GA-L being Lexus specific, and GA-N being for Toyota models like the Crown.
https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/toyota/23102775.html?padid=ag478_from_kv
Toyota's Crown press release clearly confirms this as a TNGA car, thus dispelling any strange notions of this being on the old N platform.
https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/toyota/23102775.html?padid=ag478_from_kv
Toyota's Crown press release clearly confirms this as a TNGA car, thus dispelling any strange notions of this being on the old N platform.
maiaramdan
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So by this magX new rumor if true
The next IS will be the international luxurious version for the next generation of my beloved Mark-X
I like this rumor a lot, actually this rumor give life for next generation GS based in same formula with the new generation crown especially after deleting the Majesta & the Royal for this new generation
The next IS will be the international luxurious version for the next generation of my beloved Mark-X
I like this rumor a lot, actually this rumor give life for next generation GS based in same formula with the new generation crown especially after deleting the Majesta & the Royal for this new generation
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