The Future of the IS Thread

[krew]

You know, there is this almost religious defense for the 2GR on this forum that every time I suggest the next IS will not carry the 2GR I get defense like 'Americans like big naturally aspirated V6s' or 'Americans don't like turbos' when the best seller in the segment has a turbocharged inline-6.

I can not even imagine the reaction if Lexus uses the 2GR in the next-generation IS, given that we're still some time out from getting a new model. It would be indefensible.

(Reusing the 2GR-FE 3.5L V6 in the ES 350 is pushing it, but I'm willing to concede that it's the perfect fit for the sedan.)

 

[thtupid]

I can not even imagine the reaction if Lexus uses the 2GR in the next-generation IS, given that we're still some time out from getting a new model. It would be indefensible.

(Reusing the 2GR-FE 3.5L V6 in the ES 350 is pushing it, but I'm willing to concede that it's the perfect fit for the sedan.)

sorry to nitpick krew...nobody likes a nit picker I know...but the ES uses the 2GR-FKS not the FE. It has simulated Atkinson cycle and direct injection.

 

[peterharvey]

sorry to nitpick krew...nobody likes a nit picker I know...but the ES uses the 2GR-FKS not the FE. It has simulated Atkinson cycle and direct injection.

The 6ES still uses the FE.
The 7ES is not yet released.

He meant the FKS.
In any case, the FKS is only a minor refinement & evolution of the FE.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

2.5L seems rather small for a V6, I heard that the most common size is 3L and upwards.

This generally true, but Lexus does have a history of using 2.5l 6 cylinder engines. The ES250 had a 2.5l V6. The first gen IS250 had the 1JZ I6 while the second gen had the 4GR V6. However, they have also been following a trend over the last 2-3 decades of having larger and larger cylinders. Why have a complicated and bulky V6 when a 4cyl of the same displacement will be cheaper, smaller, lighter weight, just as powerful, and possibly more efficient? (the answer is NVH, btw)

A similar engine to the hypothetical 2.5T V6 would be Ford's 2.7l Ecoboost V6. It's found in a number of vehicles, including the F-150. An interesting fact about it is that is uses a cylinder block made of compacted graphite iron instead of aluminum. Supposedly, this material is close to aluminum in strength-to-weight ratio for engine blocks.

On another note, I could see a car with a RWD version of the A25A-FKS being good, but the IS is just too heavy for it. That's an issue that keeps popping up with basically every Lexus vehicle: They're too heavy, especially if equipped with their base engine.

 

[LexiF]

Welcome to Lexus Enthusiast @LexiF! First of all, these are very cool rumors in regards to the next generation IS. We hope you like it here and would be cool if you are also another insider like some of our fellow friends who have kindly given us some insights, notably @Carmaker1.

Now, the only part of your insider information that raises red flags for me is the 2.5 L Twin-Turbocharged V6. Why would they go for such a low displacement?? Isn't a four cylinder more suitable for that? More space per cylinder? We did have a 2.5 L Naturally Aspirated V6 but this is just weird.

And oh yes, please do find information in regards to the F model. Please be TT V8, please be TT V8......

Thank you F1 Silver Arrows! I hope to be able to share good news with everyone And no I do not work for lexus...maybe one day though! At the moment I will just be sharing the information I am given.

So what I know is this; the N/A V6 is now too old for tax, economy and new regulations (Europe) and because Europe never received the 3.5 V6. The 2.5 V6 TT will be the main petrol variant here while America and other markets will see the new 3.5 TT V6. All manufactures are creating potent small displacement cars but with variety...for instance BMW uses a 2.0 petrol but markets them at 116, 118, 120, 125 and now 130 and 135. While Lexus is basically reusing the 2.5 V6 but reinventing it to compete against mid end performance vehicles and with much better efficiency then ever before. The V8 TT will be used in F variants...At least for now.
This is the lineup of what I know:
IS300 - 2.0T
IS300H - 2.5 Hybrid
IS350 - 2.5 TT V6
IS400/500 - 3.5 TT V6
IS500H - 3.5 V6 Hybrid
ISF? - 4.0 V8 TT? Or Turbocharged Hybrid?

Lexus needs the variation in its model lineups! The German manufacturers have so many and thus they are the biggest selling products in the U.K. and Europe. If the ISF does arrive in dealships this will be the performance version for us while America, Canada and other markets will see this whole line up and an ISF if/when it arrives except maybe the IS300 (2.0T) but don’t take my word for it.

I hope this helps! If you have anymore questions feel free to ask and I will get an answer for you

 

[GNS]

So what I know is this; the N/A V6 is now too old for tax, economy and new regulations (Europe) and because Europe never received the 3.5 V6. The 2.5 V6 TT will be the main petrol variant here while America and other markets will see the new 3.5 TT V6. All manufactures are creating potent small displacement cars but with variety...for instance BMW uses a 2.0 petrol but markets them at 116, 118, 120, 125 and now 130 and 135. While Lexus is basically reusing the 2.5 V6 but reinventing it to compete against mid end performance vehicles and with much better efficiency then ever before. The V8 TT will be used in F variants...At least for now.
This is the lineup of what I know:
IS300 - 2.0T
IS300H - 2.5 Hybrid
IS350 - 2.5 TT V6
IS400/500 - 3.5 TT V6
IS500H - 3.5 V6 Hybrid
ISF? - 4.0 V8 TT? Or Turbocharged Hybrid?

Lexus needs the variation in its model lineups! The German manufacturers have so many and thus they are the biggest selling products in the U.K. and Europe. If the ISF does arrive in dealships this will be the performance version for us while America, Canada and other markets will see this whole line up and an ISF if/when it arrives except maybe the IS300 (2.0T) but don’t take my word for it.

I hope this helps! If you have anymore questions feel free to ask and I will get an answer for you

Hey, thanks for the info! I'm especially excited to hear of the upcoming availability of the V35A-FTS in the IS lineup. Any idea which tier of BMW / Audi / Infiniti the IS400 is meant to compete against?

For example, I'm interested in the class of turbo 6 cylinder sport sedans occupied by the likes of the BMW 340i, Audi S4, MB C43 AMG, Infiniti Q50 RS, the rumored TLX Type-S and the Genesis G70...I'm wondering if the IS400 is going to compete against those?

 

[LexiF]

Hey, thanks for the info! I'm especially excited to hear of the upcoming availability of the V35A-FTS in the IS lineup. Any idea which tier of BMW / Audi / Infiniti the IS400 is meant to compete against?

For example, I'm interested in the class of turbo 6 cylinder sport sedans occupied by the likes of the BMW 340i, Audi S4, MB C43 AMG, Infiniti Q50 RS, the rumored TLX Type-S and the Genesis G70...I'm wondering if the IS400 is going to compete against those?

It’s aimed at exactly the category you have named. Take theses stats for instance:
Mercedes c43 amg 362 bhp 3.0 TT V6
BMW 340i 321BHP 3.0 Twin scroll Turbo
Audi S4 349 bhp 3.0 turbo V6
Genesis G70 367 bhp 3.0 turbo V6
Lexus IS400 420+ bhp 3.5 TT V6

As you can see the IS will have the bragging rights on paper but will any of the competition have redesigned engines when it’s released? Maybe, if so will it still be more powerful? Hopefully! I’m very confident the new IS with this displacement, power and handling ability and in my opinion will be one of the best on the market that you are seeking. As well as all the technology, comfort, luxury and reliability that will come with it, would be quite a challenge to top it...unless you read biased (German) European car reviewers that say the best car in the world is a BMW and the only other car manufacturer that anyone else should buy from is Mercedes.

 

[thtupid]

Wow if all these rumours are true then it will be very awesome! But I cant help but wonder if that is a few too many grades/engine options. Let's keep in mind here lexus vehicles usually have 2-3 (minus the CT) engine choices at most. I guess the current RC and GS are the exceptions too but that is due to having the performance halo F models.

Having said that though, if all those engine choices are bang on, and with the next IS being significantly larger (almost encroaching GS size), then would it be safe to assume that the next IS will fill in shoes of two vehicles? If that is true then there wouldn't be a need for an ES AWD either (other than for practicality reasons). Let's not forget also the IS never had a flagship engine (F model excluded) but the GS had (albeit detuned in the 4.3 and 4.6L V8s). So sticking the flagship LS twin turbo v6 engine into an IS does sound like to me that it will replace 2 vehicles...too bad the HS was such a disappointment. That would make perfect alphabetical sense...

 

[Gecko]

It’s aimed at exactly the category you have named. Take theses stats for instance:
Mercedes c43 amg 362 bhp 3.0 TT V6
BMW 340i 321BHP 3.0 Twin scroll Turbo
Audi S4 349 bhp 3.0 turbo V6
Genesis G70 367 bhp 3.0 turbo V6
Lexus IS400 420+ bhp 3.5 TT V6

As you can see the IS will have the bragging rights on paper but will any of the competition have redesigned engines when it’s released? Maybe, if so will it still be more powerful? Hopefully! I’m very confident the new IS with this displacement, power and handling ability and in my opinion will be one of the best on the market that you are seeking. As well as all the technology, comfort, luxury and reliability that will come with it, would be quite a challenge to top it...unless you read biased (German) European car reviewers that say the best car in the world is a BMW and the only other car manufacturer that anyone else should buy from is Mercedes.

C43 is now up to 385hp and BMW has 355hp+ versions of their I6, and the list goes on. By the time Lexus introduces the IS, 400hp will be the norm for top end performance models. Furthermore, Lexus engines haven't exactly been meeting their manufacturer quoted performance numbers, so what Lexus deems as 416hp will probably be competitive with everyone else who is around 370-385hp.

 

[ssun30]

I'm still not convinced there will be a 2.5 V6TT as most rumors point to an I4. But a 2.5 V6TT could be an awesome engine in terms of packaging. It could power a lot of transverse FWD-based performance vehicles without introducing excessive understeee like the V35A-FTS would. Not to mention it potentially makes available a transverse multi-stage hybrid system.

 

[internalaudit]

If we don't get a BEV a few years down the road (hopefully Lexus will offer it in sedans before its entry level UX), we will likely go for the next gen IS hybrid. The 3rd gen IS hybrid wasn't made available in Canada / North America.

Anyone know what the new hybrid AWD system will be for RWD-biased Lexus vehicles and how good are they? We currently have a 16 RAV4 Hybrid but of course will want a better AWD system in a Lexus.

The press release in February is more for FWD vehicles.
https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain2018/4wd/

 

[ssun30]

It's a standard longitudinal AWD system with a transaxle that creates a 50-50 split, all open diffs. At least that's true for the Crown Hybrid AWD. Not sure if the LS Hybrid AWD gets torsen or other devices allowing non-even/dynamic torque split.

 

[krew]

sorry to nitpick krew...nobody likes a nit picker I know...but the ES uses the 2GR-FKS not the FE. It has simulated Atkinson cycle and direct injection.

That's what I get for not looking it up. Thanks for the correction.

 

[spwolf]

I'm still not convinced there will be a 2.5 V6TT as most rumors point to an I4. But a 2.5 V6TT could be an awesome engine in terms of packaging. It could power a lot of transverse FWD-based performance vehicles without introducing excessive understeee like the V35A-FTS would. Not to mention it potentially makes available a transverse multi-stage hybrid system.

it will likely be 4cly, little chance of V6... they already decided that 3.5l is what they want from V6.

 

[GNS]

It’s aimed at exactly the category you have named. Take theses stats for instance:
Mercedes c43 amg 362 bhp 3.0 TT V6
BMW 340i 321BHP 3.0 Twin scroll Turbo
Audi S4 349 bhp 3.0 turbo V6
Genesis G70 367 bhp 3.0 turbo V6
Lexus IS400 420+ bhp 3.5 TT V6

As you can see the IS will have the bragging rights on paper but will any of the competition have redesigned engines when it’s released? Maybe, if so will it still be more powerful? Hopefully! I’m very confident the new IS with this displacement, power and handling ability and in my opinion will be one of the best on the market that you are seeking. As well as all the technology, comfort, luxury and reliability that will come with it, would be quite a challenge to top it...unless you read biased (German) European car reviewers that say the best car in the world is a BMW and the only other car manufacturer that anyone else should buy from is Mercedes.

The Infiniti Q50 Red Sport has 400hp out of a 3.0 turbo V6, no word on Acura's upcoming brand-exclusive turbo V6 engine.

I would have already bought a 340i xDrive or the B9 S4 by now if I were not completely skeptical about their long term reliability, this is the whole reason why I've given up on all of the Germans, and I'm basically only looking at Lexus and Acura (with a strong preference for the former).

C43 is now up to 385hp and BMW has 355hp+ versions of their I6, and the list goes on. By the time Lexus introduces the IS, 400hp will be the norm for top end performance models. Furthermore, Lexus engines haven't exactly been meeting their manufacturer quoted performance numbers, so what Lexus deems as 416hp will probably be competitive with everyone else who is around 370-385hp.

The Germans like to underrate their HP, claiming that it is to accurately reflect the available power under all situations.

 

[Gecko]

The Germans like to underrate their HP, claiming that it is to accurately reflect the available power under all situations.

Lexus should try something similar

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Before we bury it, do we have any real-world dyno results proving that the torque numbers on the V35A are off by nearly 50 foot-pounds as Gecko alleges?

 

[Gecko]

Before we bury it, do we have any real-world dyno results proving that the torque numbers on the V35A are off by nearly 50 foot-pounds as Gecko alleges?

What?

 

[Ian Schmidt]

what Lexus deems as 416hp will probably be competitive with everyone else who is around 370-385hp.

If we assume 370, that's nearly 50 HP off spec (I misread HP as torque initially).

 

[Gecko]

If we assume 370, that's nearly 50 HP off spec (I misread HP as torque initially).

Lots of different factors... could be transmission mapping, weight of the LS, etc. As you note, a dyno would be a great indicator of what this engine is really putting down but I haven't found one yet. Have you?